Intent matters, too. Salo isn't trying to titillate the audience. Anime has normalized using infantlized sexualized minors as a selling point.
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Is Anime more or less problematic than Western Media?
- Thread starter Deleted member 52442
- Start date
Intent matters, too. Salo isn't trying to titillate the audience. Anime has normalized using infantlized sexualized minors as a selling point.
Anime is very bad at some things, but I think a lot of it is also the luxury of having an outside view of an ingrained culture that we aren't able to when it comes to Western movies.
Something that's very cool about anime is its frequent antiwar messaging, and the recurring stories of how the military-industrial complex works together with corporations to take over democracy.
With anime, it's also a lot tougher to separate regular shows from AAA productions, so it also gets lumped in together, but there are definitely plenty of awful, cringy things on some of the most popular shows. Some of it probably also has to do with the rarity of female mangaka and showrunners.
And tbh, a lot of Westerners are at fault for considering many of these objectively awful things in anime a minor detail that only serves as an asterisk in their recommendation which only serves to normalize it. Which probably ends up attracting a lot of weirdos, and then things get even worse that way.
Something that's very cool about anime is its frequent antiwar messaging, and the recurring stories of how the military-industrial complex works together with corporations to take over democracy.
With anime, it's also a lot tougher to separate regular shows from AAA productions, so it also gets lumped in together, but there are definitely plenty of awful, cringy things on some of the most popular shows. Some of it probably also has to do with the rarity of female mangaka and showrunners.
And tbh, a lot of Westerners are at fault for considering many of these objectively awful things in anime a minor detail that only serves as an asterisk in their recommendation which only serves to normalize it. Which probably ends up attracting a lot of weirdos, and then things get even worse that way.
It doesn't. What it does have is an OP protagonist who, for no reason, is treated horribly by a woman, and then spends a majority of the story despising them and trying to get revenge. Revenge rape feels like an evolution of that story to make it edgier.
The notion that anime depicts any kind of realistic, honest or informative approach to sex (teenage or otherwise) is absolutely hilarious. For one, actual sexual activity is pretty much never depicted or even alluded to (outside hentai, where it's obviously just for titilation); it's either guys lusting after girls, or girls put into unlikely exposing situations. For another, women are either virgins with the libido of a dull rock that are only interested in platonic romance, or exaggeratedly horny seductresses defined entirely by that trait (and almost always treated like joke characters and feared / avoided by the main cast).
Making this about cartoons vs anime is missing the point. Western cartoons encompass a much smaller age target than anime, so the comparison doesn't make any sense; there's a reason the thread title is "western media vs anime".
I'm not a huge anime fan these days, but with something like 13 Sentinels, the character models don't actually resemble children. If the game was set in Sakura University with the exact same models, no one would bat at eye. It's like Euphoria on HBO, yeah the show revolves around high school characters and features copious amounts of sex, nudity, drug usage, etc...but the actors themselves are of age.
I remember watching a mecha type show, and it was pretty fun and cool, with perhaps some sexualization. But it was a regular shonen type of show. But then the protagonist visits an all girl school. The teacher finds out he gives good "massages" (heavily implied to be oral sex iirc).
So, she forces him to visit all the dorms to give his "massages" to all the students. Complete with moaning montages and stuff. He's crying and completely traumatized, obviously in a state of shock, and they act like it's hilarious. I never looked at anime the same again. Yes he's underage.
Can't remember what it's called.
So, she forces him to visit all the dorms to give his "massages" to all the students. Complete with moaning montages and stuff. He's crying and completely traumatized, obviously in a state of shock, and they act like it's hilarious. I never looked at anime the same again. Yes he's underage.
Can't remember what it's called.
It's hard to say.
Western Media romanticizes endless war, toxic masculinity, patriarchy, and so on.
On the other hand
Anime is quickly becoming an escape for people an ever increasing population that seek escapism to a toxic level.
So....I say they're both bad.
Western Media romanticizes endless war, toxic masculinity, patriarchy, and so on.
On the other hand
Anime is quickly becoming an escape for people an ever increasing population that seek escapism to a toxic level.
So....I say they're both bad.
Anime does it, but not to the same extent as western media.
I mean, lets be frank, Western media also love to sexualize younger characters; but not to the same extent as anime.
Did you watch that show because the protagonists doesn't actively go looking to get revenge, and he really isn't OP he earns his skill. Like he is falsely accused and then everyone treats him like he is human garbage. He becomes a cynical asshole as a result and gets back at the guy who believed the girl who believed he was a rapist no question, in petty ways because they actively try to prevent him from succeeding because of that false accusation. He isn't actively seeking revenge instead would like it if they left him alone.
The only real problematic issue with shield hero is the slavery aspect it is in no way like redo at all
There is a lot of western media that sexualizes minors it's just the actors / actresses are all in their 20s so people don't make as big of a deal out of it.
Just look at 90% of YA shows or most things on the CW, they basically have multiple PG-13 sex scenes for characters that are definitely under 18 even though they are portrayed by 18+ actors.
Its always felt weird when you realize these characters are technically 16 or whatever.
I didn't intend it as a positive. It's actually terrible how it just numbs you to the problems anime has.
It's not just the live action shows, it's also the cartoons, you have shows with the powerpuff girls twerking, sybionic titan with that scene, family guy and american dad, when you start to see it you can't unsee
Yeessssss. I wanted to watch FF so bad because I love the firefighter theme and the animation is excellent. And I liked Soul Eater back in the day. But I just flinch at some of the juvenile stuff that gets tossed in for no reason.
Probably from watching alot of it? I mean from the sounds of it most people here only watch anime starring men or aimed at men.
I guess the difference is that if your comparing the worst of anime to the worst of western media like this topic seems to be for then anime is worse. I was approaching it from a place of comparing the best of anime to the best of western media, where anime smashes western stuff so hard its ridiculous how not even close it is.
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Oh there's definitely a lot of problematic stuff all over the place. I am more of the opinion that media is created to fill a commercial demand, clearly there is a demand for power fantasies and fetishizing of the high schooler (or worse) in the anime market and thus those tropes endure.
So my approach is two pronged:
1) Search for anime made to rise above these stereotypes and recommend them to a wider audience. Like all media I refuse to condemn it on the worst common denominator, but judge it on it's brightest specimen.
2) actively avoid and diminish the pieces that do contain the problematic elements. I think we need to be realistic, the main drivers of demand for these tropes are in Japan, not a whole lot we can do but hold our ideals in our communities.
On Kaguya-sama's scene in question: Not sexual assault it is clearly expressed to be wrong and the point is that these teenagers are awkward and sheltered so they don't know what to do. Considering how this show is a satire of this sort of romcom tropes I think context is key here.
On 13 Sentinels: This is like saying Titanic is not an incredible film production because of the rose painting scene. Sure I can see people being put off; but this is such a minute part of this game and so intrinsically tied to the story being told that I find this as reductionist.
Please note that I think the low hanging amount of problematic tropes in anime is a problem, but to blacklist all this
media without contextualizing and partitioning those elements in a wider social structure is not a healthy debate of media.
So my approach is two pronged:
1) Search for anime made to rise above these stereotypes and recommend them to a wider audience. Like all media I refuse to condemn it on the worst common denominator, but judge it on it's brightest specimen.
2) actively avoid and diminish the pieces that do contain the problematic elements. I think we need to be realistic, the main drivers of demand for these tropes are in Japan, not a whole lot we can do but hold our ideals in our communities.
On Kaguya-sama's scene in question: Not sexual assault it is clearly expressed to be wrong and the point is that these teenagers are awkward and sheltered so they don't know what to do. Considering how this show is a satire of this sort of romcom tropes I think context is key here.
On 13 Sentinels: This is like saying Titanic is not an incredible film production because of the rose painting scene. Sure I can see people being put off; but this is such a minute part of this game and so intrinsically tied to the story being told that I find this as reductionist.
Please note that I think the low hanging amount of problematic tropes in anime is a problem, but to blacklist all this
media without contextualizing and partitioning those elements in a wider social structure is not a healthy debate of media.
I mean anime has a problem with sexualizing women and minors but western media has a problem with depicting anybody thats not a white man.
It is more problematic and that's rather unsurprising, since anime and manga come from a society with different sets of cultural, ethical and historical norms. That's a lot of baggage even with the increasing levels of westernization that country has seen over time, so distinct communities will still keep their own unique standards and spoken or unspoken rules regarding what's considered acceptable or not in art and entertainment.
This doesn't mean all or most people in Japan would openly endorse such problematic depictions in their media, obviously they don't, but it's a rather self-evident fact that the Japanese mainstream prefers to either turn a blind eye towards highly problematic products as long as they're only in the fringe of their society or, if nothing else, they are largely passive whenever a few of said elements are included in otherwise mass market works.
Of course, you will still see critical voices from parent groups, progressive or feminist outlets speaking up and pointing to a few of these problems. They get quoted in news stories from time to time, sure, but their success in terms of altering the situation on the ground or even simply getting attitudes to change has been rather slow, partial and awkward.
If anything, the initiatives targeted towards limiting extreme depictions of violence have apparently been more effective than those involving questionable sexual activities, and one big reason for this seems to be the belief it would be financially risky for large parts of the anime and manga industries if they were to take more decisive action. Not because the creepiest works are somehow the most popular ones, that's clearly not the case, but because of how much of it extends across a wide range of products.
This doesn't mean all or most people in Japan would openly endorse such problematic depictions in their media, obviously they don't, but it's a rather self-evident fact that the Japanese mainstream prefers to either turn a blind eye towards highly problematic products as long as they're only in the fringe of their society or, if nothing else, they are largely passive whenever a few of said elements are included in otherwise mass market works.
Of course, you will still see critical voices from parent groups, progressive or feminist outlets speaking up and pointing to a few of these problems. They get quoted in news stories from time to time, sure, but their success in terms of altering the situation on the ground or even simply getting attitudes to change has been rather slow, partial and awkward.
If anything, the initiatives targeted towards limiting extreme depictions of violence have apparently been more effective than those involving questionable sexual activities, and one big reason for this seems to be the belief it would be financially risky for large parts of the anime and manga industries if they were to take more decisive action. Not because the creepiest works are somehow the most popular ones, that's clearly not the case, but because of how much of it extends across a wide range of products.
That is quite the take. I doubt even anime fans can really agree on what is the best. From more perspectives it would be Satoshi Kon and Ghibli stuff. Those are good, but not even the anime fans believe those are the best of the best but things like FMA, Steins;Gate, One Piece, etc. Those just aren't even comparable to things like Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Sopranos, The Wire, etc. You don't even need to get to movies as well with Get Out, Moonlight, No Country for Old Men, There Will Be Blood, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, etc.
I think this thread is really good at just trying to ignore all the horrible stuff that permeates through anime. It feels like you cannot get normal decent shit unless you either Ghibli makes it or some studio just decides to not add it (which is really fucking rare cause even a supposed GOAT like Cowboy Bebop has that shit).
I feel like the issues with mainstream anime are so pervasive that I have to check beforehand with some friends whether the newest anime added on Netflix is horny or not, while the same is not true with western cartoons. I remember when Netflix Brazil began releasing some anime I had never seen or heard of, and I started watching some of them, and I couldn't get past the first episode of none of them. The one with the highschool kids running from zombies was buttshot after buttshot. Seven Deadly Sins has the main character (who looks like a child) groping unconscious women in the first episode.
I won't say western cartoons are free from issues, but anime will go to great lengths to treat its female characters as sex objects with no agency at all.
Kind of what I was thinking when trying to elaborate an answer to that arguably weirdly posed question.
I'd say both are highly problematic in different ways.
Long story short.
Anime has all the creepy underage stuff.
Western, in particular US media, has a shit ton of war glorification and gun fetishization.
Both are sexist / racist though, just in different ways. Anime tend to have more women protags (with more prominent roles, etc) but have way more gendered characters (and don't expect much about minorities...)
Trying to rank the two seems pretty weird to me.
I agree. We are happily ignoring how desetisized we are about western media objectification of women and glorification of violence and then throwing stones at the japanese for their fetishizing of underage characters and objectification of women. The hypocrisy is that they are probably just as desentized to that stuff.
All of this needs to change and is horrible, but the pearl clutching here seems to come from a false sense of superiority rather than a concerned effort to dissect the underlying issue.
Do you mistakenly think the new She-Ra was an anime or something?
Yeah, there's definitely an undercurrent in this thread that I don't much care for and I wouldn't blame anyone for side-eying the hell out of.
I find it incredibly weird people are putting generic gun usage and war on the same page as underage sexualization / fetishizing. Like, seeing something violent isn't going to make you a violent person.
wasn't that the argument that was stated for years that was the case, though that violent media causes people to be violent
Well that's the issue isn't it. The lion's share of studies on the matter, especially ones done in the late 80's - mid 90's have results that are very difficult to replicate in real world scenarios. Turns out watching Neegan cave someone's skull in with a baseball bat doesn't inherently make the viewer able to do the same. Though, at the same time, violence at an early age can have the ability to stunt the development of empathy in children, though it's not likely to be the sole cause of them turning into a sociopath.
You have to look at the larger picture. Much like Columbine wasn't caused solely by Metallica and Doom, violent crime can't solely be pinned on media violence.
I guess I'm surprised it took seven pages for the "pointing out child sexualization in anime is imperialistic and racist" song and dance. Usually it happens within the first page.
but then it becomes a fantasy vs reality debate doesn't it, that people are unable to separate the two do to their own mentality and issues do become violent sociopaths because of that media, and people who do understand that it is fake and that is fantasy don't.
Well I mean, my point still stands, the main reason why western animation doesn't have the same issues as anime is because western animation doesn't even attempt to take on the same issues. Sure, anime does it poorly most of the time, making most shows have an "animal house" mentality when it comes to sex and relationships, but most western animation doesn't even attempt to handle the issue of relationships in children at all, and when it does, it's usually more in the aims of fostering acceptance and tolerance (which is perfectly fine).
It's hard to compare the ills of western and eastern animation because, on a whole, they don't even attempt to tackle the same issues. Though, as stated, anime usually handles things in a lot more crass and damaging way.
I mean, that's certainly an argument people have made in the past. But I'd say that those people don't become that way on a diet of television and video games alone. I'd say the family and social structure factor into things in a far greater way; Without those, it's certainly possible to recede into media of any type in attempts to fill the void that can be left from social isolation.
She-Ra is OK, I'm not a huge fan of it personally but even granting that its a good show I think there are a lot of anime every season that are as good or better than it. Like just from last year I'd bring up Bofuri, Eizouken, Runway de Waratte, Koisuru Asteroid, Chihayafuru, Hamefura, Honzuki, BNA, Houkago Teibou Nisshi, Lapis Relights, Majo no Tabitabi, Adachi and Shimamura, Iwa kakeru, and Love Live as things that do just as good or better with their women characters. And that's like 14 shows from a year against one cartoon from a few years ago.
In inuyasha.... sesshomaru marries and has children with the 8 year old girl, he saved in the original, later on in the prequel. We have never seen her age a day in the original series, always following him as a child, and in the prequel, she's his wife and baby's mother.
Anime takes the cake.
Anime takes the cake.
I don't know if I'd go to bat for some of these. A lot of these fall into the whole "cute girls doing cute things" which still end up doing a lot to oversexualize their very young casts.
We should have something for anime like the Bechdel test, only it's "Is this a show that could be aimed at young girls which also doesn't force their casts to be in skirts that end at their upper thigh?"
Sesshomaru da creep.
it's not just sex and relationships but i found that anime is more willing to tackle other issues that western media doesn't want to tackle, like there is an anime that came out a couple of years ago that was lauded when it first came out that it was unrealistic but after a certain event in 2019/2020. i have come to believe that anime when it came to that subject matter was far too uncomfortably reallistic, but western media realistically would never tackle that subject
A few years ago I was recommended Made in Abyss, which was one of the hottest animes that came out that year. I googled a bit and found stuff like what I posted below. This isn't an unknown little anime, it was huge when it was released.
I'm fairly liberal minded regarding depictions of sex and nudity, but this is something else entirely. There are deeply rooted issues in anime when it comes to depictions of small children (and sexualizing infantilized older girls and women, for that matter), and I don't care much for whataboutism when discussing it.
I'm fairly liberal minded regarding depictions of sex and nudity, but this is something else entirely. There are deeply rooted issues in anime when it comes to depictions of small children (and sexualizing infantilized older girls and women, for that matter), and I don't care much for whataboutism when discussing it.
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When people here criticize American media for the glorification of war, I assume they are referring to this:
Military–entertainment complex - Wikipedia
Which would be in line with some of the posts that bring up the glorification of war, like this one:
Yuup. Few years ago I decided to try re-getting into anime, so I searched "best anime of 201X" (can't remember what year it was, maybe best of 2017?). So many articles, blogs, vlogs, community forums, said "Made in Abyss". So I started watching it...
If this is the "best of anime", what the actual fuck?
Certainly true, by hook or by crook. For example, depending on how Wonder Egg Priority does and depending on how a few other up and coming mangas end up doing, we may be in for a common theme of suicide being laced into a lot of shows in the fall 2021-winter 2022 season. I don't think I've ever seen a western animated show even try to deal with that concept.
THAT BEING SAID, let's not pretend like western animation doesn't try to get heavy once in a while. I'm reminded of Hey Arnold, having one of the neighbor's be a Vietnam war Ex-pat who struggled to get his daughter on the last flight out of Ho Chi Mihn. I didn't even know what I was seeing the first time I saw that, but it stuck with me. The playing field when it comes to what flies and what doesn't in animation in general is obviously stilted in the favor of eastern works, simply due to the freedoms allotted to the authors and showrunners. The issue there is, a lot of people are doing shit for the sake of doing shit and not asking if they should, just because they can. And hey, more power to them, they can do whatever they want....but no one should be surprised when that freedom ends up painting the entire subgenre in a creepy light that repels people on an almost inherent level.
And the thing about Made in Abyss specifically is that THAT STUFF is completely meaningless. It has no importance, it has no flavor or tone, it does not color the world or give insight into the culture...It's just...there to be there.
MiA has a whole other issue with just how violent it decides to get with children as well. I don't know who this show is for because the violence DOES color the world, and DOES explain a lot about the people living within it and how harsh things are. But to truly appreciate the story, you have to generally be okay with everything it's trying to do through extremely graphic portrayal of...mutilation of children, and I don't know why would you make that an ask of anyone, it's a lot. It's too much.
See this is the point here! People see a show with an all-woman cast and they're like "oh just cute girls doing cute things." Do you realize how incredibly sexist that is to say about things you haven't even seen? All of those shows I mentioned are vastly different from each other and unique, but the concept of series like these about women is so foreign here that people don't even have a way to talk about them. Your suggestion is ridiculous too. A young girl can't watch a show that doesn't meet your weird purity standards? Come on.
This is a bad faith argument. You framed it as if Sesshomaru marries Rin and she gave birth as an 8 year old. Yashahime is a sequal that takes place years after the original series. So Rin is not 8 years old in the squeal. I am not really a fan of the series, I prefer Super Robot anime, or hard scifi so stuff like Gaogaigar, Getter Robot, or Legend of Galactic Heros and even in series like Legend of Galactic Hero which is a hard scifi war series, it doesn't try to glorify war, instead showing the horror, and how it makes things worse unlike alot of western movies and shows that glorify it.
This is what Seshsomaru and RIn are like in Inuyasha, the original series.
The one your talking about is the Sequal, Yashahime that takes place years later. and this is what Rin looks like.
