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DemyxC

Member
Dec 3, 2020
701
Cartoons have WAAAAAAAAAAY better diversity of MC's than anime. It's not even close.
Black MC: Craig of the creek, Infinity Book 3, Kipo(blasian), Static shock, Boondocks
Asian: Amphibia, Avatar, Samurai jack, juniper lee, American dragon, Kipo,
Hispanic: Owl House, El tigre, Victor and Valentino, Seis Manos
This is just off the top of my head. It's not even fair to compare it considering demographics.
 
Nov 18, 2020
1,408
I feel like anime is more open with throwing out pedobait trash and dumb ideas like butt battling and showing almost hentai compared to western media where especially western cartoons are kept on the downlow and completely off network. It'd be really hard to say one way or another because of that but it's just so easy to look at a tracker or crunchyroll or whatever when the new season shows up and just count all the problematic ideas.

Yeah. The amount of obviously underage, pre-pubescent looking girls who fall in love with the MC in Anime is very disturbing.

At least in Western media kids are treated appropriately. Yes there is the odd European film that sexualizes them, but by and large, kids are depicted as normal kids. Like Stranger Things or Harry Potter. They go on an adventure with other kids, find their first crush, deal with typical preteen issues, and that's it. Not fawning over the self-insert MC as a fetishized trope.

855 Anime feature characters with the "Loli" trope (small breasts, cute / moe, fawns over MC), according to AniDB. https://anidb.net/tag/2566

Pedobait shit is a real problem and you see it everywhere in Anime. And it's incredibly unsettling how many people shrug it off and even defend it.
 
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lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,634
Cartoons have WAAAAAAAAAAY better diversity of MC's than anime. It's not even close.
Black MC: Craig of the creek, Infinity Book 3, Kipo(blasian), Static shock, Boondocks
Asian: Amphibia, Avatar, Samurai jack, juniper lee, American dragon, Kipo,
Hispanic: Owl House, El tigre, Victor and Valentino, Seis Manos
This is just off the top of my head. It's not even fair to compare it considering demographics.

She-ra was also quite well done with many different characters. Bojack Horseman has a good variety of humans despite its concept.
 

JinnAxel

Member
Oct 30, 2017
455
Cartoons have WAAAAAAAAAAY better diversity of MC's than anime. [...] It's not even fair to compare it considering demographics.
Yeah I'm kind of the same mind. Japan is so homogeneous and only until recently, they only produced anime with domestic consumption in mind. It's only been the last decade when publishers have started to consider overseas reception, and even then it's often an afterthought.
 

Dracil

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,436
you should ask how many BIPOC leads in Western media.

Like I kind of understand that you want Asian leads, same here Vietnamese guy, but on the whole Wester media cover more BIPOC than Japan ever did. I think I just tripping on you using BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) but you specifically just want more Asian, specifically East Asian, in general.
This is fair. I think as I was continuing to write, I started thinking the issue with BIPOC as the metric is it can easily make certain POCs (especially in the case of American live action media, this was a big issue with Asian, and especially Asian men until maybe about the last 5 years in TV) invisible if certain parts of the BIPOOC never get represented. Like I remember Fresh of the Boat was a groundbreaking show because there hadn't been an Asian American sitcom for like 2 decades or something.
 

Protoman200X

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
8,553
N. Vancouver, BC, Canada
Can you elaborate on the Beastars one. Its entirely contrasted with something like Zootopia where there's a clear attempt at a parallel with our world ie. perceived but not real threats from each other, when the fantasy species in Beastars (and the main character) are literally wanting to and/or eating each other for real more like a vampire serial. If she meant to write it as a serious commentary on race it wasn't done very well.

I also don't see Beastars as a racial allegory either, but for some reason a lot of people kept bringing it up when the anime debut (which is more of a story where systemic power structures can exist when a culture is designed around them). I must've had a brain fart and mixed it up with 'Birdy Decode 02'', which I was reading alongside 'Me and the Devil Blues' last December.

The point I was trying to get across is most fantasy allegories to discrimination never really work, because they're so divorced from real world discrimination.

What about the Ishvalans was problematic? I don't remember them being portrayed as "inferior", just hated because of their looks.

A lot of fans believed the Ishvalans were either an allusion to or a direct parallel to North American Aboriginal culture (on top of Middle Eastern culture), and across the series the Ishvalans are portrayed as a minority of the population of their residing country (post annexation), while being subject to prejudice and discrimination. Then there are parallels between the Ishval massacre and aggressive acts of genocide taken against Indigenous Americans, aspects of the Herero Wars, or the plight of the Ainu people.

I personally don't have an issue with how the Ishvalans were handled in FMA, but like with all things, nothing is perfect. (And it's oddly reassuring to know that FMA isn't the flawless gemstone many think it is.)
 

Deleted member 46493

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
5,231
I think the fact that the second page of the thread is largely devoted to arguing whether or not a few anime characters are shown as getting away with sexual abuse and multiple examples of underage sexualization should answer the question.
 

KimiNewt

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,749
A lot of fans believed the Ishvalans were either an allusion to or a direct parallel to North American Aboriginal culture (on top of Middle Eastern culture), and across the series the Ishvalans are portrayed as a minority of the population of their residing country (post annexation), while being subject to prejudice and discrimination. Then there are parallels between the Ishval massacre and aggressive acts of genocide taken against Indigenous Americans, aspects of the Herero Wars, or the plight of the Ainu people.

I personally don't have an issue with how the Ishvalans were handled in FMA, but like with all things, nothing is perfect. (And it's oddly reassuring to know that FMA isn't the flawless gemstone many think it is.)
What's problematic about them being an allusion to one or more native groups? I don't see why they wouldn't be a neutral or good example of a portrayal of a minority. All the people who hate the Ishavalan are villains.

Heck, other than Scar who get redemption all of the Ishavalans themselves are portrayed in a very good light.
 

deathkiller

Member
Apr 11, 2018
923
slasher movies, like it is literally critized that a slasher movie is not R and a huge gore fest and is pg13, like people go to slasher movies just to see the gory kills
There are tons of live action gore Japanese films so Western media is hardly special. If we talk strictly about what is mainstream I would say that gore is rare in both Anime/Manga and Western media but with tons of non-mainstream examples in both.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
Of course it is. Anime is not mainstream, it's niche as fuck. Aimed at Otaku to a large extent. It can only come out worse.

You are comparing one small section of japanese media to all of western media.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,101
UK
Cartoons have WAAAAAAAAAAY better diversity of MC's than anime. It's not even close.
Black MC: Craig of the creek, Infinity Book 3, Kipo(blasian), Static shock, Boondocks
Asian: Amphibia, Avatar, Samurai jack, juniper lee, American dragon, Kipo,
Hispanic: Owl House, El tigre, Victor and Valentino, Seis Manos
This is just off the top of my head. It's not even fair to compare it considering demographics.
Great post.

Is Owl House now available to watch in UK?
 

AriesM4rch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
313
That Kaguya example is a huge reach IMO, it was more of an awkward situation than flat out assault. Anime like SAO, Fire Force, Seven Deadly Sins, and Redo of Healer have way worse problematic aspects that makes Kaguya look very tame.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,488
Of course it is. Anime is not mainstream, it's niche as fuck. Aimed at Otaku to a large extent. It can only come out worse.

You are comparing one small section of japanese media to all of western media.

Pokemon, Dragon Ball, Naruto and shonens in general aren't niche.
 

Kenai

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,182
Interesting topic. I like some anime but have been able to notice a lot of more problematic ones as I got older, not sure if it's just been more prevalent lately or I can be more objective about it. I will say that at the very least the pedo/infantilsm and general sexual assault "gags" are way more prevalent in anime than pretty much anything in Western animation. It can be not so subtle like outright groping (Fire Force comes to mind) or more subtle with the female cast having larger eyes or super low cut skirts (...several come to mind).

Even anime that I would find usually fun or at least watchable otherwise tends to shove it in somewhere (MHA, Fairy Tail, Black Clover, Food Wars, Kill la Kill, and many more), whether it's a Mineta-style pervert who is played for laughs and won't fcking stop, or the inevitable hot spring episode where all the guys suddenly have to go peeking, or the summer episode where we have to see every skimpy swimsuit (always on the gals) with plenty of commentary. Mind that pretty much all the aforementioned characters are high school age or less and would be considered minors and it gets even more skeevy. And most of the ones I just mentioned are both somewhat recent and popular.

Now, there is plenty of good anime where I can go the whole series without seeing anything of the sort, but that's far less common than it has any right to be. And since some of it is ongoing, there's always the chance...

Western animation definitely has the blood/gore and gun fetish on lock though, no one should argue that. There's some reasonably heavy stuff like that in anime, but I can find x5 more on the Western side easily.

Minority representation is honestly pretty terrible on both fronts, while Western is probably better overall the bar is still very, very low so I'm not gonna pat Western on the back about that. LBGT+ representation is in a similar boat.

That being said, basing anime vs ALL of Western media doesn't seem quite right to me since we don't have an exact parallel.
 

Codeblue

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,841
The 13 Sentinels stuff is such a bummer. I see why everyone raves about it, it's a fun game with a neat story, but the game goes out of its way to be off-putting in the most unnecessary ways.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,971
I'm thinking of stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist, Spice and Wolf, etc. Japan is generally had at black characters. That I do not disagree with. Though JoJo, SAO, Pokemon I believe also have relatively non-offensive black characters.

Now how many Western media can do Asian cast or setting without forcing in some white people in it or having some sort of objectification especially of Asian women?

I...don't know the best way to respond to this post and anybody who is presenting a similar opinion. Sure, there are plenty of problematic depictions of different races, cultures, and gender identity/sexuality in Western media; however, Japan is a pretty shockingly ethnically homogeneous country and that is reflected in their media. Sure, examples can be quoted, but I don't think it's possible to say there is more representation in anime that Western Media (or most if not all sub-genres that would make for a better comparison).

If the argument is better representation of these people in anime, well, I don't really agree there either - whether it's because the character having a skin color difference is the only significant differentiation between other characters and therefore no meaningful cultural/sociopolitical statement is made, the character is a small side-character, or just straight up racist or pseudo-racist caricatures - I don't think there is the breadth or depth of good representation of different minorities in anime as there is in western media.

It's becoming more and more uncommon to have shows or movies that have an all white cast outside of settings that typically lend themselves to a homogeneous casting (even if it shouldn't I'm looking at you pseudo medieval Europe Fantasy or historical fiction). Furthermore, often shows have prominent characters if not leads or significant portions of the cast are minorities. Frankly, most anime is still centered around the same homogeneous vaguely or literally asian cast.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,896
AIt's a bit weird to compare diversity of media from a single ethnically homogenous country to the entire conglomerate of "Western Media", ofcourse the latter is going to be more diverse.

But on topic: yes there is some weird shit in anime.
 

DemyxC

Member
Dec 3, 2020
701
Great post.

Is Owl House now available to watch in UK?
It's on Disney plus and on TV.

She-ra was also quite well done with many different characters. Bojack Horseman has a good variety of humans despite its concept.
Yea She-ra goes above and beyond with representation. I need to watch Bojack. it always gets praised when I hear about.

Yeah I'm kind of the same mind. Japan is so homogeneous and only until recently, they only produced anime with domestic consumption in mind. It's only been the last decade when publishers have started to consider overseas reception, and even then it's often an afterthought.
Yea and I think that's fair. I always wanted the west to have more anime-esque cartoons there is so much untapped potential there.
 

Protoman200X

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
8,553
N. Vancouver, BC, Canada
What's problematic about them being an allusion to one or more native groups? I don't see why they wouldn't be a neutral or good example of a portrayal of a minority. All the people who hate the Ishavalan are villains.

Heck, other than Scar who get redemption all of the Ishavalans themselves are portrayed in a very good light.

Dude, I don't have all the answers. If I could take a guess, the same idiots who think the Ishvalans are problematic are the same sort who'd probably think Pez and Pop make a nutritious breakfast.

Both the manga and various anime adaptations go out of its way to explore systemic racism, especially in its characterization of Scar. The question of why disempowered people turn to violence is a powerful one, often rooted in specific times and places, but is a universal one. The fact that people have issues with this makes me baffled.
 
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Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103
If you think about the kind of cultural imperialism and war mongering and invasion justification Americans put into their media, literally used to justify wars and random drone strikes and the production of literally thousands of atomic bombs, there's no media in the world that is used to support any comparable level of evil.

There are lots of issues with lots of media from around the world because those issues are rooted in the cultures that produced them, but American media (and media produced in other countries that need to cater to American audiences to be profitable) is basically a brainwashing machine to justify constant genocide, oppression, late stage capitalism and, let's not forget, it still has lots of toxic representations of people.
 

Baladium

Banned
Apr 18, 2018
5,410
Sleep Deprivation Zone
Not sure but I feel like there's more pedo bait anime than western media
360
 

cairngorm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
651
It isn't fair to compare anime to all of western media as opposed to western cartoons imo. Japan has it's own live action tv shows, movies. And "western media" is kinda vague but I assume you mean american since that is what the rest of the thread is talking about. Constrained purely to animated shows anime is far worse imo. You will be far less likely to find a western cartoon targeting a demographic of children/teens where sexual assault and molestation is used frequently as a gag like some shounen with barely any pushback from the public. Or having an underage character trip which leads them to strip somehow and end up in their underwear or with someone's face on their crotch.
 

xyla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,385
Germany
It's incredibly hard to find anime that's not just so thirsty. Even something internationally recognized and praised like "your name" just dives head first into uncomfortable stuff the main characters do and stuff like weird camera angles on underage girls.

I don't get it. Maybe it was always like this and I just didn't care when I was younger and watched stuff like Ranma or Dragon Ball. Especially today, I never watch it for this stuff I always find it off putting and it's been pushing me away from stories that I might otherwise find interesting.
 
Nov 18, 2020
1,408
It's incredibly hard to find anime that's not just so thirsty. Even something internationally recognized and praised like "your name" just dives head first into uncomfortable stuff the main characters do and stuff like weird camera angles on underage girls.

I don't get it. Maybe it was always like this and I just didn't care when I was younger and watched stuff like Ranma or Dragon Ball. Especially today, I never watch it for this stuff I always find it off putting and it's been pushing me away from stories that I might otherwise find interesting.
I know, right? It's like I put on this really cool mystery Anime about time travel (Steins;Gate) and then I get this...

image.png


It's just so ridiculously offputting. Turns me off to great stories instantly.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
I frankly find anime more problematic but I was hoping to see some discussion on the problematic aspects of Western media.


I can't speak for Europe but American black actors get a lot of harmful tropes when the show isn't heavily a black cast or a balanced one. Heck I don't think other ethnic groups are portrayed with a lot of nuance either and still lean into stereotypes in this day and age. Even white ethnic groups that are considered exotic like Russians get shit on in media too much.

Roles for white women have increasingly gotten a lot better in the past 15 years but in some ways we've back slided compared to the 60s through 90s. For example, average looking women are much less common and ugly women don't exist anymore on media.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
Is this a stealth shit on anime thread?

The framing of the OP certainly leans in that direction, having an example of a problematic scene in an anime but doesn't provide a similar example from a Western animated show.

Which is my other question. Is this thread about anime vs western cartoons like Adventure time? Or Anime vs Western media as a whole, encompassing reality tv shows, movies like the avengers and prime time dramas? The latter is very broad and odd because Japanese media is made up of more than just anime.
 

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,546
It's much, much worse to the point where I wonder how in the hell are the people involved with those things not aware that what they're writing is horrifyingly wrong. It's like these characters aren't human beings or at least, don't react to stuff like human beings would.

Also, you just sold me off of 13 Sentinels, and i was (against my better judgement that anime stuff will always be like that) planning to try it.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Well, western media is doing better in the race department at least
Hell no.

When Japan is bad at race they have be worse than modern western stands. No doubt about that.

But when they aren't being idiots about it non-Japanese / European characters simply are more diverse and interesting than any other western show with a similar racial/ethnic composition. And at this point I can name more anime with great characters than western media despite their much lower representation of different ethnic groups.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
It's certainly a lot worse generally speaking, but it also depend to what western media are we comparing it. The biggest problem I see in anime is gender roles, and how women are crafted to be sexualized first, and being presented as a cohesive character second. Meanwhile male characters are made to look the reflection of stereotypical male teenagers that consume the media, and would identify with the fantasy of gazing at these fetishized female bodies and interacting ideologically with them as they see fit, and not how real women would see fit in their agency.

I can point VERY FEW examples of sexualized male characters in anime, and I mean characters that, much like the women in anime, are crafted to appeal to the stereotypical male sexual performance expected as "ideal" socially. Often anime utilizes devices such as ridiculing these male sexualized characters, being grossly extra or stupid about it, in order to keep away from looking "gay", because they are made to appeal to the very particular perception of a very particular public, that refuses to see anything beyond their sexuality performance as valid.

That's just your biases speaking for you. Japan leans hard into catering to women too. with sexualized fetishes. They do it differently but let's go for one example that is more obvious. That trope about young girls (especially sisters)being attracted to an elder male character is replicated just as frequently for leading female roles as well (the big difference is that the younger male isn't usually the woman's brother)

Japan leans hard into fetish-sizing both genders. It's more in your in face in how the fetish size women visually but the dialogue is soaking wet with innuendos about male characters to serve their female fans.

And if you ever watch Bananafish you can reflect back on all the anime you watched that more subtly sexualized men visually compared to that fucking show. As men we couldn't see it as easily but the female titillation was there more frequently than you might think it is now.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,181
Seinen, Shonen, Josei etc are all very loose arbitrary designations in my opinion.
Many series' are bought by and marketed to a wide range of ages and genders all the time.
 

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,277
Comparing the mainstream stuff, anime is far more problematic. There's things that are acceptable in Japanese society that are disgusting tbh, such as its attitudes towards child pornography.

However as a whole? When you start looking into more fringe Western media you'll find pretty much the same issues that anime has tbh. So as a whole I'd say they're about equal in problems.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,488
Seinen, Shonen, Josei etc are all very loose arbitrary designations in my opinion.
Many series' are bought by and marketed to a wide range of ages and genders all the time.

Seinen mangas like Berserk can't be sold with One Piece and the likes, to me that's what defines it.

Series like Death Note are still shonens.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,529
Seinen, Shonen, Josei etc are all very loose arbitrary designations in my opinion.
Many series' are bought by and marketed to a wide range of ages and genders all the time.
Exactly. K-On for example is technically a seinen serialization. Also, seinen literally means youth and is often catered towards horny men. Shonen might even be worse honestly. I don't really keep up with anime/manga.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,488
Exactly. K-On for example is technically a seinen serialization. Also, seinen literally means youth and is often catered towards horny men. Shonen might even be worse honestly. I don't really keep up with anime/manga.

Shonens usually have much worse sexualization.

Some seinens can be very heavy in other things like violence though, Berserk is too much for me.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,296
On a whole, I'd say anime takes the cake easily for its creepiness. There's special intent when you actually draw the things. Like, just imagine making a 1 for 1 adaption of a lot of anime and manga into TV shows and you would see a clear difference. Like, yeah, western media has that male gaze thing going on but just think about how different it would be if live actors had their boobs zoomed in on so they jiggle, filming panty shots, etc. Like, we even take just standard nude model outlines as just things that happen in magical girl shows but just imagine. Just imagine seeing that actually unfold with live actors. It'd be weird and creepy af especially if the actors are, like 12.

Anime has just conditioned a lot of people not to care about this shit.


Perfect example would be that time some era members stated that that brothel review show was actually an example of sex positivity. 🤦‍♂️ Not to mention shit like Goblin Slayer or that blatantly racist anime about ant people being popular as hell.


Your views are incredibly narrow if you conflate otakus with anime. There are many examples of fans of western media that have misogynistic tendencies. See: Star Wars.
If anything the reason why those people have misogynistic views is strictly because they refused to grow the hell up and stopped being pandered to, (as much), as multiple IPs from their childhood acknowledged that people other than straight white dudes were interested. SW is a perfect example. As we've come a very long way from space swimsuit Leia, space strippers, and whatever the fuck was going on with Padme's outfits in Attack of the Clones. Even in spite of some modern SW media having problematic elements.
 
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HMD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,300
Western media is still racist and imperialistic as fuck, both have their problematic tendencies just in different topics.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,043
It's ridiculously much worse, to the point that I for the most part have stopped seeking out new anime. It's just not worth it.

13 Sentinels doesn't really bother me, though. I'm playing through it right now, and apart from one characters ridiculous catsuit outfit I don't think it's that bad. And at least that character is not a minor, so if you can handle western superhero comics, it's not anything worse than that.

the movie begins with a C, and is straight CP, like that movie straight up sickens me that someone was allowed to create that

I'm sorry, but you just failed your grade in media literacy. Try again, and good luck.