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1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,253
Here we go, a look into exactly what I was talking about: http://www.helsinki.fi/esslli/courses/readers/K54.pdf

An explaination of why, in the linguistics sense, computer programming is mathematics. They both fall under the branch of Hamiltonian linguistics.

It's obviously math. I took the OP to mean he was reasonably skilled at math, but not skilled enough to do the mathematical courses required for a CS degree. There are many degrees of competency here. You don't need to be able to be profient in the mathematics that would allow you to create your own graphics engines or physics systems to make a game with Unity/Unreal. The bar is lower than what's required for a CS degree. You do need a high proficiency in logic, though.
 

Uhtred

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May 4, 2020
1,340
You can get a lot done in game dev with jut some basic geometry and high-school math. But in the end its going to depend a lot on the type of game you are making, if you are making it alone, if you are using an engine, what kind of engine, etc.

I've made simple CCG games, word games, and tower defense games. The tower defense game was the one where I had to brush up on math the most.
 

Deleted member 12790

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Oct 27, 2017
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It's obviously math. I took the OP to mean he was reasonably skilled at math, but not skilled enough to do the mathematical courses required for a CS degree. There are many degrees of competency here. You don't need to be able to be profient in the mathematics that would allow you to create your own graphics engines or physics systems to make a game with Unity/Unreal. The bar is lower than what's required for a CS degree. You do need a high proficiency in logic, though.

that post was for the person with the PhD in mathematics.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,253
that post was for the person with the PhD in mathematics.

Gotcha. I guess I'm over-reacting to the negativity on the first page. The OP sounded a little more competent than people were giving him/her credit for. Sounded like someone who probably should have been encouraged a bit.
 

Deleted member 12790

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Gotcha. I guess I'm over-reacting to the negativity on the first page. The OP sounded a little more competent than people were giving him/her credit for. Sounded like someone who probably should have been encouraged a bit.
you shouldn't be curt with people who are starting out. Assume questions asked are in good faith, even if you think they might sound very misinformed. When I was just beginning graphics development, I got laughed out of a room full of C developers at a PC users group, and it hurts 25 years later. When people ask for help, they're exposing themselves to you and are being vulnerable, they're trusting you for guidance. Don't betray that trust. You look way cooler offering a helping hand than scoffing at a "ridiculous" question (and, IMO, there are no ridiculous questions, everyone starts somewhere).
My goal is to never discourage people from what they want to learn. Nothing is insurmountable. Math sounds very scary when you're new to it, but it really isn't so bad. The first step to gaining such a skill is to believe you can do it. Terms like "vector calculus" might sound complex, but it really isn't. Its bark is worst than it's bite. It's all a matter of finding a source that teaches you well. As far as I'm concerned, it's possible to teach calculus to early grade school students if taught well enough (this actually happened at my school as part of a study from NASA, which sadly I wasn't a part of).

The book I recommended is meant for beginners and is written to be easier to understand. On this subject, I'll say avoid wikipedia when trying to learn math. It's awful at it, IMO. Great if you already know the concepts as a refresher, but as a teacher, it's so wordy and technical and full of symbols that it'll make your eyes gloss over. At least it does to me. I have to seek out people to "dumb it down a shade" for me regularly.

Oh, on that same note, youtube is an incredible resource for this. I wish I had youtube when I was younger for learning math.

I agree that people need encouraging. But I also think part of that is demystifying math. You need math to do computer programming. The trick is that math isn't impossible to grasp, it's just that most people are only ever taught it terribly, in high pressure situations, without purpose. Learning to love math is fun, people just need to be not afraid to try it. I think telling people they can avoid math when doing computer programming is sending the wrong message of encouragement. It's better to be honest, and part of that honesty is that they can pick up any type of mathematics if taught well. Unfortunately, finding a good place to learn is very hard, which is why topics like this are important.

When I have trouble understanding a mathematical concept, one trick I use it to soak myself in lots and lots of redundant resources. I'll read a book or article or watch a video on it, and it won't make sense. Then i'll do another, from a different person, and it still won't make sense. Then another. Then another. And over and over, until eventually they all click into one concept. By using lots of resources in concert, it's like I can see further than any single source could teach me. In many ways, I compare it to stereoscopy -- each eye sees things slightly differently, but it's when put together that we perceive depth. So if someone tried learning one concept and it didn't go well once, don't despair. That is very normal for me. It's part of the process, I promise it'll click eventually, you just gotta try.
 

Anatole

Member
Mar 25, 2020
1,427
I actually disagree. I believe math is like a language, and there is a critical period where young people can learn it much easier. Math is like art, it's best understood when you can feel it out and see the relationship between numbers. Math is logical, it's beautiful when understood. The earlier you learn these subjects, the better you innately understand how it's all connected.

That's not to say older people can't learn complex subjects, I've been playing catch up my entire life. But I think it's not the right approach to wall off higher level maths till late in life.

The root of it all is what you say, though: we teach math as a science, so it's mechanical. Math should be taught as an art. An excellent read on the subject: https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf

That's a very interesting article. I think the author's view is influenced to what I would consider an extreme by being a middle school math teacher, but their view certainly is correct for beginners, and even intermediate students, of any age. I have known many very intelligent scientists who say that they dislike math because they 'hate proofs' who, when I asked them, had actually had no exposure to proofs after their high school geometry class.

I like Terence Tao's description:

It is of course vitally important that you know how to think rigorously, as this gives you the discipline to avoid many common errors and purge many misconceptions. Unfortunately, this has the unintended consequence that "fuzzier" or "intuitive" thinking (such as heuristic reasoning, judicious extrapolation from examples, or analogies with other contexts such as physics) gets deprecated as "non-rigorous". All too often, one ends up discarding one's initial intuition and is only able to process mathematics at a formal level, thus getting stalled at the second stage of one's mathematical education. (Among other things, this can impact one's ability to read mathematical papers; an overly literal mindset can lead to "compilation errors" when one encounters even a single typo or ambiguity in such a paper.)

The point of rigour is not to destroy all intuition; instead, it should be used to destroy bad intuition while clarifying and elevating good intuition. It is only with a combination of both rigorous formalism and good intuition that one can tackle complex mathematical problems; one needs the former to correctly deal with the fine details, and the latter to correctly deal with the big picture. Without one or the other, you will spend a lot of time blundering around in the dark (which can be instructive, but is highly inefficient). So once you are fully comfortable with rigorous mathematical thinking, you should revisit your intuitions on the subject and use your new thinking skills to test and refine these intuitions rather than discard them. One way to do this is to ask yourself dumb questions; another is to relearn your field.

The ideal state to reach is when every heuristic argument naturally suggests its rigorous counterpart, and vice versa. Then you will be able to tackle maths problems by using both halves of your brain at once – i.e., the same way you already tackle problems in "real life".
 

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
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United States
If you wanna do any kind of programming, yes. Otherwise a basic understanding (high school equivalent) will get you by.
 

coldcrush

Member
Jun 11, 2018
785
I am more on the art side of development in a larger studio, with many different roles (more specialists elsewhere and only generalists in the programming department) and have never used anything other than my fingers for math or the occasional windows calculator. I can imagine in a smaller Indie team if you are wearing many hats then having a higher understanding of math is very useful
 

soul

Member
Oct 27, 2017
599
Since I'm not in game development, but I am a "general" software development engineer, I tend to say, yes it is (and probably always will be), but to a lesser amount. There are easier tools and practices that do some of the heavy lifting for you.
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
Reading this thread I wonder wether it might be possible to get a job at game development with a quite high level of math skills and knowledge. I'm finishing my PhD in algebra so quaternions for example are nothing special to me. I also have some basic knowledge of programming with Python, but not in C++. What should I do if I wanted to go towards game development?

Honestly, and I know you're going to hate to hear this: your PhD is going to sort of be "fluff" for most studios. They're going to take any programmer who's successfully launched a single game over you sight-unseen, and they're probably going to vastly prefer any fresh undergraduate from a school with a comp-sci program that's more game development-friendly, too, unless they really need you for some hyper-specialized role in engine development or something.

If you do some boot-camping you can probably get up to a level of C++ proficiency to get a junior programming position, but c'mon man, you've got a STEM PhD. There's got to be something better you could be doing with it.
 

Vareon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,816
The thread title didn't help OP's point, which was very different from the title. The answer for the title is 100% absolutely yes.

But the question in OP, I'm taking a far extreme--I make simple visual novels and I don't need college-level calculus. But at any point I want to add even a little complexity to the game--maybe a variable stat system--then it's suddenly math again. You can only go so far by fiddling with numbers and stumbling upon a "correct" solution to your problem.
 

Deleted member 20297

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Oct 28, 2017
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Computer science *is* math. It depends on what you are trying to do.
3d? Math.
Physics? Math.
Collision detection? Math.
Data compression? Math.
And so on.
Making a game in Dreams? Probably not so much.
 

Nil'giccas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
86
There is a term, and I always forget it because it's wordy, that explains the logical and syntatical relationship between mathematics and computer programming. The broad idea is that the language of math, and the language of computer programming, share a common concept, where nested functions return to higher functions to form more complex functions. If you have a PhD in mathematics, you no doubt innately understand much of the structure of programming. It's all about encapsulation and recursion.

Your next step should be to learn the basics of program control. Learn conditionals (if statements, in other words), and loop controls. Then move onto learning specific syntax. I've already recommended it ITT, but look up smileBasic. BASIC is still terrific for entry into computer programming, it's meant to remove as much of the fluff from syntax as possible.
Here we go, a look into exactly what I was talking about: http://www.helsinki.fi/esslli/courses/readers/K54.pdf

An explaination of why, in the linguistics sense, computer programming is mathematics. They both fall under the same linguistical branch. Programming languages share a mode of communication as formal mathematics.

Thanks for the replies, maybe I didn't phrase it well but I know how to programm in Python and I've helped programmer friends a few times in interview questions or whatever when they have struggled with the logic of how to programm things, so I understand and appreciate the fact that both mathematics and programming are founded, on some level, on formal logic. Thanks for the pdf though, I had not seen it before and me and some friends might find it interesting. It's not a coincidence that usually, when academic mathematicians from different fields meet, they mostly speak about languages.

Honestly, and I know you're going to hate to hear this: your PhD is going to sort of be "fluff" for most studios. They're going to take any programmer who's successfully launched a single game over you sight-unseen, and they're probably going to vastly prefer any fresh undergraduate from a school with a comp-sci program that's more game development-friendly, too, unless they really need you for some hyper-specialized role in engine development or something.

If you do some boot-camping you can probably get up to a level of C++ proficiency to get a junior programming position, but c'mon man, you've got a STEM PhD. There's got to be something better you could be doing with it.

Oh sure, for now the plan is to continue in academia at least, but I asked out of curiosity and to get an idea of how much math knowledge is valued. Thanks for your input!
 

Imperfected

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Nov 9, 2017
11,737
Oh sure, for now the plan is to continue in academia at least, but I asked out of curiosity and to get an idea of how much math knowledge is valued. Thanks for your input!

I suppose the closest comparison I can think of for how valued it would be, would be to say it's like someone with a Juris Doctorate applying to become a police officer: it's obviously relevant knowledge that will have useful applications, but at the same time it won't really replace any of the required training or experience, and on the whole you're probably just going to have a confused recruiter who's worried you're going to demand too much compensation or get bored of the work too easily.