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Nola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,025
Trump's a dick. Always has been, always will be. He shares no guilt in Iran shooting down a fucking airplane full of innocent people. That's 100 percent on Iran.
Yes he does.

Is Bush innocent for the Iraqi's killed in his war by terrorists he incentivized and set the situation in Iraq into motion? Through the invasion, de-baathification and military disbandment?

Are American politicians culpable for the generation of criminalized young black men because of the broken windows policies they insisted upon in black neighborhoods?

This is no different. You put the machine of war into motion and you bear a level of responsibility for what gets produced. In this case we heightened tensions and escalated a situation that put Iran in a position where they were in a heightened defensive posture and trigger happy after we had just promised counter retaliation to their retaliation set off by our war-stoking president. You can jostle over what level of blame should be attributed to whom, but your argument amounts to claiming Bush is innocent for civilian deaths in Iraq and black people shouldn't be blaming anyone but themselves for their situation. Nothing on Earth happens in a vacuum.
 

Ctrl Alt Del

Banned
Jun 10, 2018
4,312
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
I understand his point, but I'm of the mind that causation and culpability are two completely different streets on the far end of town. The firmer is cause and effect purely, while the latter is distributing blame due to the consequences of actions that have/have not been taken. In this particular situation the US is the CAUSE for the high alert status, by direct action, but they are not culpable for the plan being shot down. That is denying agency and sovereignty to Iran. Iran could have taken the highest of roads and not became a hotbed of tension as well( highly unlikely) but if they did so they would have warned the highest of praise. Would we not then heap some of that praise on the US. Keep the same energy and don't heap the ire on the US either.
Absolutely. The plane would have never been shot down if it wasn't for Trump's strike.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,646
You can go a very, very long way playing this blame game. Like, decades back. In these situations, the blame should go to the perpetrator. And in this one, that's all on Iran. Full stop.
Do you believe something that happened, say, ten years ago holds as much relevance to the current situation for most people as something from a week ago?
 

Jet Jaguar

Member
Dec 3, 2017
2,564
For those who don't really know much about the Iranian government, please also refer to their treatment of Jafar Panahi. How is this related? Well it'll give you further insight into the government's mentality - especially for those displaying bizarre mental gymnastics in either trying to absolve Iran for this tragedy, or shift responsibility by use of blame culture.
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,611
Trump's blame comes from instigating the situation in the first place. Iran's blame is twofold. First, having people manning the guns who are practically in a panic on what kind of enemy response they're going to get, to the point where they literally start shooting blindly at the first thing they see in the air, and second, for not having the most basic of common sense to ground all flights until it was known what kind of response was coming, if any. Because anything in the air, regardless of what it is, is in serious danger in a situation like that. Especially at night, where there's no visual confirmation of your target. Sure, military radar can pick up civilian transponders and know what they're looking at, but the targeting systems on the guns and missiles don't have that capability. So it boils down to gross incompetence, at many levels of the Iranian military and the government.
 

Nola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,025
For those who don't really know much about the Iranian government, please also refer to their treatment of Jafar Panahi. How is this related? Well it'll give you further insight into the government's mentality - especially for those displaying bizarre mental gymnastics in either trying to absolve Iran for this tragedy, or shift responsibility by use of blame culture.
Acknowledging America's role in laying the foundation for this tragedy is not the same as absolving Iran.

Blame shifting accusations presume your narrative has some monopoly on legitimacy. It does not.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
This is why humans shouldn't have weapons this powerful.

Iran as a country didn't shoot this down, a human did likely a single or couple of people who made a horrific mistake and it has happened multiple times now throughout history.


Considering how air traffic control works at minimum 3, not 2, people had to agree this plane was a threat and that's just air traffic control. For a military response a few more people had to be involved.

A lot of dumbasses were involved. I wouldn't be surprised if preexisting stress a big factor because our own air traffic control teams have to deal with that and we're relatively safe.

So this fuck up even means the Iranian gov't is mostly culpable for not properly reducing that stress.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,343
For those who don't really know much about the Iranian government, please also refer to their treatment of Jafar Panahi. How is this related? Well it'll give you further insight into the government's mentality - especially for those displaying bizarre mental gymnastics in either trying to absolve Iran for this tragedy, or shift responsibility by use of blame culture.
Well said. It's odd to see people across a range of threads about Iran (notably the ones about them hijacking tankers and trying to mine other tankers) take on such a sympathetic stance toward the Iranian government. The same posters pretend to care about civil rights, homophobia, freedom of/from religion, women's rights in other threads but are shockingly silent about Iran's horrific policies with those when they leap to its defense. It's honestly puzzling.
 

GenTask

Member
Nov 15, 2017
2,661
Something like this happened a long time ago during the the Korean or Cold War, I'll have to look it up later. Basically the country admitted shooting down an airliner on accident.

In the end what happens, that is fate, can't be changed. The U.S. and Iran right now are in an unstated war and nerves are high on hair trigger. It happened and I have a feeling Iran decided to admit and apologize as it makes them look better. When the U.S. shot down an airliner, they did not say sorry and awarded the offending ship captain.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Trump's blame comes from instigating the situation in the first place. Iran's blame is twofold. First, having people manning the guns who are practically in a panic on what kind of enemy response they're going to get, to the point where they literally start shooting blindly at the first thing they see in the air, and second, for not having the most basic of common sense to ground all flights until it was known what kind of response was coming, if any. Because anything in the air, regardless of what it is, is in serious danger in a situation like that. Especially at night, where there's no visual confirmation of your target. Sure, military radar can pick up civilian transponders and know what they're looking at, but the targeting systems on the guns and missiles don't have that capability. So it boils down to gross incompetence, at many levels of the Iranian military and the government.
And that sums up the Trump is to blame group sufficiently. This post should be threadmarked for all the people who only want to blame Iran for this to see.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Well said. It's odd to see people across a range of threads about Iran (notably the ones about them hijacking tankers and trying to mine other tankers) take on such a sympathetic stance toward the Iranian government. The same posters pretend to care about civil rights, homophobia, freedom of/from religion, women's rights in other threads but are shockingly silent about Iran's horrific policies with those when they leap to its defense. It's honestly puzzling.

You see, Trump's bad, we all know that, so apparently that means that any country he's trying to antagonise has carte blanche to kill as many civilians as possible.

Or at least that seems to be how many posters ere think. That or a crippling lack of knowledge of Iran and a dismissive sense of intellectual superiority towards middle Eastern countries who they think are too stupid to avoid committing atrocities.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Well said. It's odd to see people across a range of threads about Iran (notably the ones about them hijacking tankers and trying to mine other tankers) take on such a sympathetic stance toward the Iranian government. The same posters pretend to care about civil rights, homophobia, freedom of/from religion, women's rights in other threads but are shockingly silent about Iran's horrific policies with those when they leap to its defense. It's honestly puzzling.


The problem is that Iran isn't a constant thought in our minds. If this fuck up was between US and China more people would've had the atrocities about that country in mind because we talk about China's issues more than Iran. Heck we talk about Venezuela more than Iran until today.

Just continue to remind us of their issues and you'll notice most people won't just dismiss those concerns.
 

Liquidsnake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,979
Trump's blame comes from instigating the situation in the first place. Iran's blame is twofold. First, having people manning the guns who are practically in a panic on what kind of enemy response they're going to get, to the point where they literally start shooting blindly at the first thing they see in the air, and second, for not having the most basic of common sense to ground all flights until it was known what kind of response was coming, if any. Because anything in the air, regardless of what it is, is in serious danger in a situation like that. Especially at night, where there's no visual confirmation of your target. Sure, military radar can pick up civilian transponders and know what they're looking at, but the targeting systems on the guns and missiles don't have that capability. So it boils down to gross incompetence, at many levels of the Iranian military and the government.
Bookmark this.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,343
You see, Trump's bad, we all know that, so apparently that means that any country he's trying to antagonise has carte blanche to kill as many civilians as possible.
Exactly. In one of these threads someone had some sympathy for Kim Jong Un even and basically said that if we didn't bother NK then the country would be a normal one. Hating Trump is, of course, reasonable. That doesn't mean we should embrace Iran's government, China's government, NK, or Duterte, however.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
You see, Trump's bad, we all know that, so apparently that means that any country he's trying to antagonise has carte blanche to kill as many civilians as possible.
No but it means that in this instance trump shares in the blame, he's absolutely responsible for this as well just as much as iran is.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
Trump's blame comes from instigating the situation in the first place. Iran's blame is twofold. First, having people manning the guns who are practically in a panic on what kind of enemy response they're going to get, to the point where they literally start shooting blindly at the first thing they see in the air, and second, for not having the most basic of common sense to ground all flights until it was known what kind of response was coming, if any. Because anything in the air, regardless of what it is, is in serious danger in a situation like that. Especially at night, where there's no visual confirmation of your target. Sure, military radar can pick up civilian transponders and know what they're looking at, but the targeting systems on the guns and missiles don't have that capability. So it boils down to gross incompetence, at many levels of the Iranian military and the government.

FriskyCanuck Threadmark goes here por favor
 

Liquidsnake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,979
You see, Trump's bad, we all know that, so apparently that means that any country he's trying to antagonise has carte blanche to kill as many civilians as possible.

I am shocked at some of the responses in here to the murder of innocent civilians in this thread. It's good to know that some can actually see it for what it is.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Trump's blame comes from instigating the situation in the first place. Iran's blame is twofold. First, having people manning the guns who are practically in a panic on what kind of enemy response they're going to get, to the point where they literally start shooting blindly at the first thing they see in the air, and second, for not having the most basic of common sense to ground all flights until it was known what kind of response was coming, if any. Because anything in the air, regardless of what it is, is in serious danger in a situation like that. Especially at night, where there's no visual confirmation of your target. Sure, military radar can pick up civilian transponders and know what they're looking at, but the targeting systems on the guns and missiles don't have that capability. So it boils down to gross incompetence, at many levels of the Iranian military and the government.

Their air defence will far more sophisticated than that. It's a capital city with heavy air traffic. They'll have steps to ensure that commercial airplanes aren't shot down, steps that normally include contacting air traffic control.

It's not an easy mistake to make.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Acknowledging America's role in laying the foundation for this tragedy is not the same as absolving Iran.

Blame shifting accusations presume your narrative has some monopoly on legitimacy. It does not.
Exactly. Trump shouldn't have assassinated Soleimani . We knew it would start a chain of events that noone would want to happen and now here we are.

Iran needs to address their staffing issues that allowed this plane to be shot down, they need to make amends with the surviving family members and they need to have the guts in the future to not lie about something like this before feeling compelled to confess.
 

cameron

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
23,807




AFP news agency @AFP

#BREAKING
Ukraine's president Volodymyr Zelensky demands punishment and compensation for the airliner downed by Iran


#UPDATE "We expect Iran... to bring the guilty to the courts," the Ukrainian leader wrote on Facebook, calling also for the "payment of compensation" and the return of remainshttp://u.afp.com/3kqp

3:36 AM - Jan 11, 2020




AFP news agency @AFP

The aerospace commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guards accepts full responsibility for the shooting down of a Ukrainian passenger jet
http://u.afp.com/3kcE

10:40 AM - Jan 11, 2020
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401


Farnaz Fassihi @farnazfassihi

BREAKING:
Public mourning gatherings turn into protests in #Iran. Angry crowds chanting, "Death to the liars."#IranPlaneCrash #UkrainePlaneCrash

9:12 AM - Jan 11, 2020



Good to see they are on point with their chants.

While it will help their citizens to get their pound of flesh they seriously need to prove to them and the world they have restructured their military and air traffic control to ensure this disaster doesn't happen again when they get stressed by a new conflict.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,343


Farnaz Fassihi @farnazfassihi

BREAKING:
Public mourning gatherings turn into protests in #Iran. Angry crowds chanting, "Death to the liars."#IranPlaneCrash #UkrainePlaneCrash

9:12 AM - Jan 11, 2020

The government went on and on about how united they were and took such pride in that and then within such a short time pissed it away through stupidity, an attempted cover up, and an admission that still included lies (the plane never went off course).
 

Arex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,493
Indonesia
Something like this happened a long time ago during the the Korean or Cold War, I'll have to look it up later. Basically the country admitted shooting down an airliner on accident.

In the end what happens, that is fate, can't be changed. The U.S. and Iran right now are in an unstated war and nerves are high on hair trigger. It happened and I have a feeling Iran decided to admit and apologize as it makes them look better. When the U.S. shot down an airliner, they did not say sorry and awarded the offending ship captain.

It happened in cold war when the Soviet jets shot down the Korean Air 747. The pilots even made visual contact. It happened with US shooting down the Iran Air, and now with Iran shooting down the Ukrainian Air.

They all have similar contributing factors, heightened tensions and pressure and trigger happy person.



The Yahoo link has more info on what happened according to the Iranians. Communication breakdown whilst on high alert and bad decision by the missile operator.
 

Asator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
904
Do you believe something that happened, say, ten years ago holds as much relevance to the current situation for most people as something from a week ago?

I'm saying that you can keep shifting the blame forever since it's been a constant game of retaliation that has been going on without stop for decades.

Also, the attack on US assets wasn't a decade ago, it was at the end december last year, about two weeks ago.
This is why humans shouldn't have weapons this powerful.

Iran as a country didn't shoot this down, a human did likely a single or couple of people who made a horrific mistake and it has happened multiple times now throughout history. Humanity is fucking stupid, we waste all our time killing each other and building weapons and killing even more innocent people.

Overall just an awful, awful situation all caused by stupidity.
It wasn't just the SAM operator's fault, it was also Iran's failure to close off their airspace to civilian aircrafts. They fucked up at multiple levels.

Trump's blame comes from instigating the situation in the first place. Iran's blame is twofold. First, having people manning the guns who are practically in a panic on what kind of enemy response they're going to get, to the point where they literally start shooting blindly at the first thing they see in the air, and second, for not having the most basic of common sense to ground all flights until it was known what kind of response was coming, if any. Because anything in the air, regardless of what it is, is in serious danger in a situation like that. Especially at night, where there's no visual confirmation of your target. Sure, military radar can pick up civilian transponders and know what they're looking at, but the targeting systems on the guns and missiles don't have that capability. So it boils down to gross incompetence, at many levels of the Iranian military and the government.
You could easily say that Iran is to blame for instigating the strike on their general by forcing a US response to the strike on the Kirkuk base going by that logic. This is the problem with this part of the world: Everything is a response to the act of another party. Playing the blame game could lead you multiple decades back.

This is why the blame should go to the perpetrator of this act. In this case, it's Iran.

Well said. It's odd to see people across a range of threads about Iran (notably the ones about them hijacking tankers and trying to mine other tankers) take on such a sympathetic stance toward the Iranian government. The same posters pretend to care about civil rights, homophobia, freedom of/from religion, women's rights in other threads but are shockingly silent about Iran's horrific policies with those when they leap to its defense. It's honestly puzzling.

Not that puzzling. People want ammo, any ammo to shit on Trump (which is understandable considering that he's a prick). This is a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation. You'd think the orange shitstain does enough fuckups and terrible things on his own to not have to pin the the blame on him with this one, but apparently not.

What I find the most disgusting is people using the death of these poor people as a pawn to fuel their hate. It's just... gross.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
I'm fully aware of that, but this tragedy DID happen and as a result the entire Iran response makes them look comically incapable.
Despite that, explicitly not hitting US soldiers still doesn't make them look incapable. Iran wouldn't exist anymore today if they had hit US soldiers.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,874
Las Vegas
I'm saying that you can keep shifting the blame forever since it's been a constant game of retaliation that has been going on without stop for decades.

Also, the attack on US assets wasn't a decade ago, it was at the end december last year, about two weeks ago.

It wasn't just the SAM operator's fault, it was also Iran's failure to close off their airspace to civilian aircrafts. They fucked up at multiple levels.


You could easily say that Iran is to blame for instigating the strike on their general by forcing a US response to the strike on the Kirkuk base going by that logic. This is the problem with this part of the world: Everything is a response to the act of another party. Playing the blame game could lead you multiple decades back.

This is why the blame should go to the perpetrator of this act. In this case, it's Iran.



Not that puzzling. People want ammo, any ammo to shit on Trump (which is understandable considering that he's a prick). This is a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation. You'd think the orange shitstain does enough fuckups and terrible things on his own to not have to pin the the blame on him with this one, but apparently not.

What I find the most disgusting is people using the death of these poor people as a pawn to fuel their hate. It's just... gross.





AFP news agency @AFP

#BREAKING
Ukraine's president Volodymyr Zelensky demands punishment and compensation for the airliner downed by Iran


#UPDATE "We expect Iran... to bring the guilty to the courts," the Ukrainian leader wrote on Facebook, calling also for the "payment of compensation" and the return of remainshttp://u.afp.com/3kqp

3:36 AM - Jan 11, 2020




AFP news agency @AFP

The aerospace commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guards accepts full responsibility for the shooting down of a Ukrainian passenger jet
http://u.afp.com/3kcE

10:40 AM - Jan 11, 2020


Even the Iranian military / government at this point has the sense to take responsibility.
 

Shopolic

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,837
Iran, a country that you can see these things in just a few days:

yz7u_022a0302-1-825x550.jpg


1i2l_eoaxzzdw4aetsfw.jpg
 

Shopolic

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,837

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Sigh. I too can go completely above your arguments by merely saying "are you defending Trump?", you know. You and I both very well know you are not, right? So please don't use the same bait arguments.
I didn't. I read this:

The world has seen how much the US has fucked places, killed, allowed atrocities, destroyed societies, etc. we are tired of giving the US a pass.

As saying Soleimani was someone who was tired of giving the US a pass. But I wasn't sure that was what you meant, which is why I asked. If I was sure you were defending him, I wouldn't have asked that question.

So, I'm sorry for not understanding you. It was a genuine question, not an attempt to discredit you.
 

Deleted member 4552

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,570
Well yes, the point was not to take the blame away for Russia, the point was that they weren't in contact with local air traffic and were fighting in a war zone. I don't think that's comparable to the kind of fuck up demonstrated by Iran here.

They illegally invaded another county, and shot a passenger jet at cruising altitude out of the sky.

Iran fucked up at the highest level but don't downplay what Russia did.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,124
Chile
I didn't. I read this:



As saying Soleimani was someone who was tired of giving the US a pass. But I wasn't sure that was what you meant, which is why I asked. If I was sure you were defending him, I wouldn't have asked that question.

So, I'm sorry for not understanding you. It was a genuine question, not an attempt to discredit you.

Fine then

No, I'm not defending him, I'm trying to explain to you why no matter how much this is Iran's fault (and of course it is), people also see it as a consequence of years and years of interventionism, and even this particular weeks of escalations.

That's why I mention to you the black and white narrative. People used to see these conflicts in black and white: US good, their enemies bad. Thanks to Trump, despite being a problem that far precedes him, people are starting to realise how aggressive and how much the US may have done wrong since the Cold War. So the US is no longer seen as the good guy, despite how much of a bad guy they may be battling. Sometimes people just don't want to pick their poison and will just throw both of them into the garbage.
 

oRuin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
718
If Iran was on such high alert, I really wish they would of closed Iranian airspace until tensions were lessened. Such a tragedy, them poor people.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Fine then

No, I'm not defending him, I'm trying to explain to you why no matter how much this is Iran's fault (and of course it is), people also see it as a consequence of years and years of interventionism, and even this particular weeks of escalations.

That's why I mention to you the black and white narrative. People used to see these conflicts in black and white: US good, their enemies bad. Thanks to Trump, despite being a problem that far precedes him, people are starting to realise how aggressive and how much the US may have done wrong since the Cold War. So the US is no longer seen as the good guy, despite how much of a bad guy they may be battling. Sometimes people just don't want to pick their poison and will just throw both of them into the garbage.
I don't disagree with any of this, and I have said much the same in this thread.

The fact that I place the blame for this particular event entirely on Iran does not somehow make all of the other mistakes and wrongs the US has commuted go away, or lessen them.

I just don't agree this airplane being shot down is on anyone but the Iranian government, for the very basic and practical reason that nothing the US has done should have caused the massive and basic operational mistakes that lead this missile to be fired. To me, blaming anyone but Iran means the situation is somehow the cause of this tragedy, when nothing about the geopolitical situation should have impacted the proper functioning of this air defense system.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,117
Gentrified Brooklyn
I'm saying that you can keep shifting the blame forever since it's been a constant game of retaliation that has been going on without stop for decades.

Also, the attack on US assets wasn't a decade ago, it was at the end december last year, about two weeks ago.

It wasn't just the SAM operator's fault, it was also Iran's failure to close off their airspace to civilian aircrafts. They fucked up at multiple levels.


You could easily say that Iran is to blame for instigating the strike on their general by forcing a US response to the strike on the Kirkuk base going by that logic. This is the problem with this part of the world: Everything is a response to the act of another party. Playing the blame game could lead you multiple decades back.

This is why the blame should go to the perpetrator of this act. In this case, it's Iran.



Not that puzzling. People want ammo, any ammo to shit on Trump (which is understandable considering that he's a prick). This is a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation. You'd think the orange shitstain does enough fuckups and terrible things on his own to not have to pin the the blame on him with this one, but apparently not.

What I find the most disgusting is people using the death of these poor people as a pawn to fuel their hate. It's just... gross.

1)There's a clean line of our current issues in the middle east to our inventionalism tho. Modern Iran is because the supposed bastion of freedom overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran in 1950 which lead to the 1979 revolution. Digging into history there's hella quid pro qui but the chain stops and the buck 100% stops with us.

2)Trump, and lets be honest the country as a whole is an extremely destabalizing force in the world. I don't fool myself because as a citizen I reap the benefits (some).

3)The easy post is 'Iran shot down an airplane and killed 200 people' with everyone replying with outrage and we all circle jerk each other about how a country murdering 200 people is fucked up but that's not really a discussion.

Going back to why point 1 and why we cant focus on this incident on the surface how its 100% iran's fault is that the US does a really bad (but really good for our soft power) at whitewashing its history to continually absolve itself of any wrong doing and honestly this fits into the same pattern. You guys look at it as looking to blame, from my perspective its just trying to get people to see the patterns. We are outraged because Iran dropped a crazy ball in a way that feeds personal nightmares (a plane crash hits home), but an errant missile strike would have been a shrug.

Hell, the truth is if that plane was 200% iran owned with iranian citizens this post wouldn't be as popping.

We need to focus in Iran, but ignoring the US's role as if we magically got here because of evil Iran misses the point. We absolutely have been a force for evil in the world post WWII, but we insist we are always the good guys. And I get it, as a citizen (even a POC one) I reap those benefits. But I have no doubts what we are.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,469
Nah fuck this line of thinking. Our dumb ass President instigated this situation. So you stop with this bullshit.

It is a shitty situation and there's blame to go all around.

You can't deny that without the completely unnecessary escalation by Trump, Iran never would have made this mistake. But they are also responsible for their own actions at the end of the day, you need to have some sort of verification that it is a hostile aircraft before shooting it down.

Mistakes like this aren't excusable BUT they're going to happen in some form or fashion when you're escalating towards war. And the fact that the US is trying to make this a thing when we "accidentally" drone strike civilians in the Middle East all the time and then cover it up is disgusting.