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Iran admits to shooting down Ukrainian airliner
- Thread starter FriskyCanuck
- Start date
Why can't you approach this in a more measured way? Aren't you a mod? You don't see people accusing you of staning for Trump, right? Consider that people look at a tragic mistake differently than a concerted and deliberate decision to attack. The environment in which that mistake occurs matters a lot, both in terms of systemic failures and the fog of war. If you disagree, fine. But maybe you don't have to challenge each person that dares post something different.
Sure, Trump created the environment but everything about this was within the control of Iran. They could have grounded flights, they didn't. They could have NOT ignored the plane's IFF signal, they did. They could have erred on the side of caution and NOT pushed the button to fire, but yet they did.
This is 100% Iran's fault, and no one elses.
There were at least 3 or 4 points where someone took a look at the situation, examined all of the information, and made the wrong choice each time.
This is 100% Iran's fault, and no one elses.
There were at least 3 or 4 points where someone took a look at the situation, examined all of the information, and made the wrong choice each time.
Don't you think it's a bit shortsighted to discount all recent history? I feel like if you're boiling things down to that degree, to literal Abrahamic lore you're never going to be able to solve or have a conversation about anything of consequence.
Kind of a strange point to make when you're trying to say it started at one specific point and no other (when Iran carried out retaliatory strikes against bases where US troops are stationed). In fact, the argument that there is no specific point that started this chain of events perfectly undercuts the "Iran is 100% culpable" point of view because it dissolves the notion of sole culpability.
That poll is seriously depressing. So many people willing to let the US off the hook for escalating the tension that led to the tragedy.
When u post clash of civilisations garbage like the first post and an incredibly insensitive joke in the second. I think that warrants at least not being able to hear this garbage
You act as if putting the blame where it's supposed to be is going to make people forget about America's involvement there. You can have 2 conversations. Why the need to just jump into a thread about IRAN ADMITTING THEY SHOT DOWN THE PLANE IN ERROR to say, "Trump has blood on his hands!" It makes no sense other than to shift some blame to Trump when even Iran admits it was them. At a certain point, it does appear as downplaying Iran's incompetence and role in this because, "They wouldn't have done it if America was there", but guess what? They wouldn't have done it if they weren't incompetent.
I'm saying this was a monumental fuckup that Iran's government and military deserves the blame for. There are no reasonable mitigating circumstances. This should not have happened.
We're talking about who shot down a plane. The causes of that are very clear.
If Soleimani hadn't been assassinated, the plane almost certainly wouldn't have been shot down. It's really that simple. Yet it's 100% Iran's fault, Trump has no blood on his hands, and you're not ignoring the actions of the United States in these assessments?
Either they both have blood on their hands (and neither one takes away from the other), or only one of them has blood on their hands. I say they both do.
Do you genuinely believe they wouldn't execute someone who mistakenly killed a few hundred people of they weren't gay?
I don't understand why you brought up Isaac and Ishmael then I guess? What am I missing here because that went over my head.
Its possible to have both conversations at the same time. The problem is since America is culpable for the unnecessary escalations since they current administration decided to voluntarily rip up the nuclear deal and assign further sanctions on it.
There need to be other governments to place pressure on Iran and Iran admitting its mistake is a decent first step for them. But America isn't in a situation to enforce anything and I don't know who else to enforce it.
Might I remind you we're currently an invading force in Iraq.
A militia is responsible for attacking US, US kills an Iranian General.
No matter how much "backed by Iran" means, the US killing Soleimani is the stupidest decision.
He actually said it.
Yes, this is on them.
Context isn't. That's the problem. If the US didn't kill Soleimani, this wouldn't be happening. Could have happen in another context? Maybe, it doesn't change anything
I'm aware of the Canadian victims, but it doesn't mean that the guy's opinion has more merit because he's Canadian.
...........
Are you for real
It's disingenuous to say that correctly placing the blame on the Iranian regime, who shot a plane leaving their own airport and is known to be oppressive and has actually lied about what happened, means that we suddenly forget who escalated the tension.
If I said the poll was depressing because "way too many people leave Iran off the hook", how would you respond?
And if Soleimani hadn't been a mass murderer, he wouldn't have been assassinated.
That's why going down this path is pointless when it comes to the plane, because it never ends. The geopolitical situation didn't shot down the plane, a massive failure of the Iranian command and control system did.
I mean.. if Iran shot them down then obviously they bear more responsibility. That said of course US bears responsibility for needless and irresponsible escalation.
What a senseless tragedy
What a senseless tragedy
Meaningless point scoring over the unnecessary deaths of innocents
Way too simplistic Matt. The US has assassinated plenty non mass murderers. Don't let's be silly.
That's not what's been said. What's been said is faulting the party that actually launched the missile. I see two sides arguing:
Side 1: Sharing blame with Trump/US because they escalated the situation.
Side 2: Blaming only Iran because they launched the missile and you can't pinpoint an exact start of the escalation.
I mean where did it start? The assassination? The Embassy attack? The missile launch from the US? The killing of the contractor and Iraqi soldiers?
Why would I care what the United States did prior? The plane LEAVES the capital of fucking Iran and is shot down by fucking Iran because of their incompetence. It doesn't matter if America escalated tensions with Iran. It literally DOES NOT MATTER. If you are in high tensions with another country and you shoot down a plane that LEAVES your capital's airport then you are 100% to fucking blame.
Like, the plane wasn't even coming from outside Iran. IT WAS LITERALLY PARKED IN THEIR AIRPORT AND THEN TOOK OFF. You have to be an incompetent fucking mess to go, "Yep, that plane that was at the airport is going to bomb us now."
I don't know if they will execute a man for shooting down this plane, but they absolutely would execute the same man for being gay.
To illustrate that trying to place the blame anywhere but the actual systems that failed these people is a pointless exercise.
And again, if Soleimani didn't kill Americans, then he wouldn't be killed, and on and on. It's so pointless.
Of course they have, but that's why Soleimani was killed.
Oh, I get what you're saying. I disagree with that, because there are certain things that can turn the dial up or down significantly, and I think you can look at incidents both in isolation and as a whole and determine at least within some moral framework who morally made a right or wrong call. It would be a ton of work to study history to that degree, I can't say I have, but I don't think most people refrain from judgment just because you can get stuck in a seemingly endless loop of passing blame, it doesn't seem to be how people generally come to conclusions.
This is only true if you ignore the entire history of American Imperialism. Someone being good or bad has no weight whatsoever on imperialist designs. If it did, the US would have bombed the shit of Saudi Arabia already. Or they would have regime changed the fuck out of Israel. Soleimani was killed because the war hawks in Washington saw him as a strong adversary they wanted out of the board and also as a way to escalate the situation with Iran. Any other read of the situation is either delusional or neoliberal poppycock.
What does this have to do with the airliner being shot down?
You of all people should know that in a sensitive thread, you're bringing off topic shit into it. What does this have to do with the deaths of innocent people on this airliner?
Nah. Other mass murderers aren't killed. So that's not it. Disappointing how you just accept right wing talking points
I can attest that I personally am not saying Iran is not 100% to blame. And if you read and understood what several other posters are typing they are saying about the same thing.
Trump is simultaneously also responsible for bringing Iran into this situation. More than one person can be responsible for a situation arriving to where it was possible for 200 civilians to be senselessly murdered.
The precise reason why so many are opposed to rash military actions is because of the unintended series of events they can instigate. Every decision to escalate heightens the odds of tragedy, purposeful or otherwise. That is why I believe the U.S. shares the blame in this tragedy.
Please stop defending mass murderers. Soleimani wasn't killed for being strong, he was killed because he killed Americans.
I don't see how an example of the systemic devaluing of human life by the Iranian government isn't relevant to a thread about their lack of adequate care for human life.
He's a mass murder of Americans. What other explanation are you looking for?
No, that isn't the case. No matter how much "the militia is backed by them" is thrown.