Iran admits to shooting down Ukrainian airliner

Inuhanyou · Jan 10, 2020

subpar spatula said:
It doesn't matter what Trump did. Iran shot it down. Not Trump. It's like being in a fight and then punching a bypasser then blaming it on the guy you're fighting with. Iran is at 100% at fault, and every time people say, "Fuck Trump for starting this" it gives the impression you're not really putting the blame on Iran. They did this. Have your issues with Trump and the United States but THEY DID NOT DO THIS.

They lead to it.

The US is partially responsible for creating Al Qaeda and ISIS by arming rebels in Afghanistan and invading Iraq and knocking over the government. Just because they didnt directly form those groups doesnt absolve them of indirect blame. That's what we're talking about in this case, indirect blame and unintended consequences by actions done on a whim without any regard for the butterfly effect.

Some fool in iran shot down the plane and its on iran for not grounding flights during a time of high alert, so they clearly deserve a majority of the blame. but the US and Trump does deserve some portion of the blame

CrankyJay · Jan 10, 2020

Effnine said:
How can you possibly disassociate Trump from this? Obviously tensions are and have been higher since his senseless actions.

Because it sounds childish to go out of ones way to make sure Trump gets shit on, and there was a fair degree of hand waving making it seem like Iran didn't have much culpability in this.

Dakkon · Jan 10, 2020

KoolAid said:
I would hope this kinda deescalates the situation, but who am I kidding

Am I misremembering the timeline or isn't this what actually made Iran de-escalate?

Because didn't they go "YEAH UH, THATS OUR RETALIATION AND WE DONT WANT ANY MORE ESCALATION NOW PLS LEAVE US ALONE KTHNX" like immediately after this happened?

Deleted member 16657 · Jan 10, 2020

subpar spatula said:
It doesn't matter what Trump did. Iran shot it down. Not Trump. It's like being in a fight and then punching a bypasser then blaming it on the guy you're fighting with. Iran is at 100% at fault, and every time people say, "Fuck Trump for starting this" it gives the impression you're not really putting the blame on Iran. They did this. Have your issues with Trump and the United States but THEY DID NOT DO THIS.

Let me give what I think is a better analogy.

You get sucker punched going home one night by a guy in a green hoodie.

Pissed off, you lay in wait the next day watching for him. You see a guy in a green hoodie and sucker punch him back, only to realize that it wasn't your assailant.

In essence, you committed battery and that's entirely on you. But, the circumstance for this to happen in the first place were only occurring because you got sucker punched first.

Deleted member 29660 · Jan 10, 2020

Wow they admitted it. Didn't think they would and they'd drag this out over a painfully long time.

CrankyJay · Jan 10, 2020

olubode said:
Trump must share some of the blame for stariing this.

there's a timeline that goes much further back than what Trump did.

krazen · Jan 10, 2020

Operations said:
The Russian separatists never did, did they?

NOPE. Then again when has Russia ever told the truth, lol. Dudes had a nuclear meltdown and were like *kanye shrug* nah, its just smog

lint2015 · Jan 10, 2020

NHarmonic. said:
This is unbelievable, holy shit.

Unbelievable that they admitted it? Better than denying it against all the evidence like Russia did, right?

cameron · Jan 10, 2020

Iranian foreign minister:

Javad Zarif @JZarif

A sad day. Preliminary conclusions of internal investigation by Armed Forces:

Human error at time of crisis caused by US adventurism led to disaster

Our profound regrets, apologies and condolences to our people, to the families of all victims, and to other affected nations.

11:05 PM - Jan 10, 2020

Darkstar0155 · Jan 10, 2020

krazen said:
yup. America's shot down commercial aircraft too under similar circumstances murdering hundreds.

Iran fucked up, but lets not act like the logical conclusion to that missile launch wasn't eventuallly going to be senseless civilian death.

Obviously Iran is at fault. But you know if tensions weren't so high that it almost surely wouldnt have happened.

Seductivpancakes · Jan 10, 2020

Did they shoot it down cause they thought it was an American plane or were they gonna blame it on America?

RoKKeR · Jan 10, 2020

So fucking tragic...

Inuhanyou · Jan 10, 2020

CrankyJay said:
there's a timeline that goes much further back than what Trump did.

Indeed. US blames Iran for embassy protest which resulted in the death of a US PMC. Iran blames sanctions and Trump administration walking away from iran deal years ago. In the end its been a constant path of unnecessary escalation.

FriskyCanuck · Jan 10, 2020

cameron said:
Iranian foreign minister:

Javad Zarif @JZarif

A sad day. Preliminary conclusions of internal investigation by Armed Forces:

Human error at time of crisis caused by US adventurism led to disaster

Our profound regrets, apologies and condolences to our people, to the families of all victims, and to other affected nations.

11:05 PM - Jan 10, 2020

Added to OP

Kintaro · Jan 10, 2020

PogChamp said:
Let me give what I think is a better analogy.

You get sucker punched going home one night by a guy in a green hoodie.

Pissed off, you lay in wait the next day watching for him. You see a guy in a green hoodie and sucker punch him back, only to realize that it wasn't your assailant.

In essence, you committed battery and that's entirely on you. But, the circumstance for this to happen in the first place were only occurring because you got sucker punched first.

First green hoodie guy has no fault in second green hoodie guy being punched on this scenario though. This is a bad example, or maybe its a good one.

RedMercury · Jan 10, 2020

CrankyJay said:
Because it sounds childish to go out of ones way to make sure Trump gets shit on, and there was a fair degree of hand waving making it seem like Iran didn't have much culpability in this.

I mean, the guy deserves it any way he can get it.

NinjaScooter · Jan 10, 2020

cameron said:
Iranian foreign minister:

Javad Zarif @JZarif

A sad day. Preliminary conclusions of internal investigation by Armed Forces:

Human error at time of crisis caused by US adventurism led to disaster

Our profound regrets, apologies and condolences to our people, to the families of all victims, and to other affected nations.

11:05 PM - Jan 10, 2020

I'm sure the broken heart emoji makes the families feel better

BasilZero · Jan 10, 2020

It was obvious from the get go.

Regardless of who did it and why, 150+ people lost their lives....fuck war and conflict.

Cels · Jan 10, 2020

now to top it off iran is gonna give a medal to the guy in charge of shooting down the airliner, like the US did with the vincennes captain after the US shot down the iranian jet. history repeats itself.

Deleted member 25600 · Jan 10, 2020

Well, that's that.

Cels said:
now to top it off iran is gonna give a medal to the guy in charge of shooting down the airliner, like the US did with the vincennes captain

You know most of the passengers were Iranian, right?

Marin-Lune · Jan 10, 2020

blakeseven said:
If President Fuck Knuckle of the United States didn't assasinate a foreign military leader to bribe the politicians of the United States so he doesn't get impeached, none of this shit would have happened. So no no one should "fucking stop with this" and it's not 100% on Iran.

If you want to go down that road of ifs and whens, blame it on the American people for electing the fuckwit in first place. Nah, it's Iran's fault, period, and surprisingly enough they're now admitting guilt.

julian · Jan 10, 2020

CrankyJay said:
Because it sounds childish to go out of ones way to make sure Trump gets shit on, and there was a fair degree of hand waving making it seem like Iran didn't have much culpability in this.

Nobody hand waved Iran's culpability. This was pointed out repeatedly in the last thread and you ignore it to just shit on anybody who thinks Trump deserves some blame for this. It's a truly bizarre stance.

Inuhanyou said:
Finally they admitted it.

I was wondering what was taking so long. It would have been far easier to simply come out with it and apologize...it does nothing to help deescelate tensions and i know they are smart enough to not want to give Trump a reason to beat the war drums even more.

Independent verficiation aside, in the face of multiple countries saying so, its something that never should have happend.

RIP to the Iranians, Canadians and everyone else on the flight. Really fucked.

Finally? I feel like given what they're admitting this was surprisingly quick.

Something Creative · Jan 10, 2020

CrankyJay said:
there's a timeline that goes much further back than what Trump did.

Please don't act as if each reaction was inevitable. Please don't remove agency in this. Assassinating Soleimani was a massive escalation and unnecessary.

Rockets · Jan 10, 2020

subpar spatula said:
Can we fucking stop with this? This is 100% Iran's fault.

Lol nope

CrankyJay · Jan 10, 2020

RedMercury said:
I mean, the guy deserves it any way he can get it.

That's fine, I guess though my dissent here is that by blaming Trump it feels like they're omitting Iran's role in this. It sucks for these people and their families and friends. Thousands of lives affected in an instant, across generations.

subpar spatula · Jan 10, 2020

PogChamp said:
Let me give what I think is a better analogy.

You get sucker punched going home one night by a guy in a green hoodie.

Pissed off, you lay in wait the next day watching for him. You see a guy in a green hoodie and sucker punch him back, only to realize that it wasn't your assailant.

In essence, you committed battery and that's entirely on you. But, the circumstance for this to happen in the first place were only occurring because you got sucker punched first.

It does not matter who started it. Iran shot down the plane. The United States could have put troops along the Iran border and it would still be 100% Iran's fault the plane went down. "High tensions" is not an excuse. It never will be with these things.

GameChanger · Jan 10, 2020

Fuck this fucking mess. RIP to the victims. I am surprised they admitted it. They were caught red handed though. I still blame the orange piece of shit for this.

CrankyJay · Jan 10, 2020

Something Creative said:
Please don't act as if each reaction was inevitable. Please don't remove agency in this. Assassinating Soleimani was a massive escalation and unnecessary.

Sorry, I shed no tears for a terrorist with blood on his hands. It was hardly unnecessary.

Deleted member 4552 · Jan 10, 2020

subpar spatula said:
Can we fucking stop with this? This is 100% Iran's fault.

It's a mistake made in the fog of war.

Escalating conflicts, assassinations, covert ops, all of it leads to unforseen consequences.

Nothing is 100% anything.

Operations said:
The Russian separatists never did, did they?

It was the Russian army not "separatists."
Again by mistake.

Doesn't excuse the cover up the Russians tried on it.
Conspiracy theorist believe the Russians story on that one btw. Very frustrating.

Deleted member 16657 · Jan 10, 2020

Kintaro said:
First green hoodie guy has no fault in second green hoodie guy being punched on this scenario though. This is a bad example, or maybe its a good one.

It's just the butterfly effect.

Jon Carter · Jan 10, 2020

Can't think of a much bigger mistake than shooting down a plane full of innocent people. Their explanation doesn't make much sense by the way. They said they shot it down because it was turning where it shouldn't have and at a suspicious altitude, but from my understanding, the plane didn't turn until after it was hit.

Something Creative · Jan 10, 2020

CrankyJay said:
Sorry, I shed no tears for a terrorist with blood on his hands. It was hardly unnecessary.

Good to know where you stand. Killing state actors with blood on their hands, regardless of impact. Cheers.

Spaced Harrier said:
It's a mistake made in the fog of war.

Escalating conflicts, assassinations, covert ops, all of it leads to unforseen consequences.

Nothing is 100% anything.

Exactly.

Arex · Jan 10, 2020

Dang, so it really was an accidental shoot down. It's good for them to admit it and apologize for what's happened, and not drag the situation any further or deny it like the Russian and the MH17.

The soldier who pulled the trigger will probably get executed, but they'll need to find out how the chain of command just let this thing happen.

Not sure what's next. Hope they compensate the families of the victims in full. Sucks that this happened, but that's why I hate conflicts like these. The innocents suffer the most.

Felt · Jan 10, 2020

The mental loops you have to go through to blame Trump for this gross incompetence.

I'm glad they admitted it so the victims families can have some closure.

krazen · Jan 10, 2020

subpar spatula said:
It does not matter who started it. Iran shot down the plane. The United States could have put troops along the Iran border and it would still be 100% Iran's fault the plane went down. "High tensions" is not an excuse. It never will be with these things.

I disagree. In wartime friendly fire happens all the time, and this was wartime. Commercial aircraft have gotten shot down by countries, including the US btw, under similar circumstances. Its easy to say Iran fucked up, but we set the scenario up that got us here. So I guess we won? Lol

32X4LYF · Jan 10, 2020

RedMercury said:
I mean, the guy deserves it any way he can get it.

As was mentioned before, when every single last thing results in some sort of Trump throwback, the whole hate just gets so diluted it turns into white noise. It is a really inefficient way to direct ones ire.

Inuhanyou · Jan 10, 2020

julian said:
Finally? I feel like given what they're admitting this was surprisingly quick.

I feel like it was a few days late. Perhaps it only felt like that because some in the government were initially skeptical of believing US reports outright which made it worse when Canada corroborated the statements. Nobody should have said anything beyond they were investigating

Kintaro · Jan 10, 2020

PogChamp said:
It's just the butterfly effect.

But where do you draw the line? Perhaps 1st green hoodie guy sucker punched me because he just found out his GF was cheating on him with a guy that looked like me and thought I was that guy.

rckvla · Jan 10, 2020

subpar spatula said:
Can we fucking stop with this? This is 100% Iran's fault.

It seems that you don't know what chain reaction means.

This is so tragic. RIP to the victims. The world is just depressing, man. Why can't everybody just get along and live a happy life.

RedMercury · Jan 10, 2020

32X4LYF said:
As was mentioned before, when every single last thing results in some sort of Trump throwback, the whole hate just gets so diluted it turns into white noise. It is a really inefficient way to direct ones ire.

Maybe to you, and I'm not discounting your opinion or anything but to me, I'm always glad when people speak out against a piece of shit like him.

Rover · Jan 10, 2020

You can blame both Iran and Trump, for fucks sake.

Deleted member 4552 · Jan 10, 2020

Jon Carter said:
Can't think of a much bigger mistake than shooting down a plane full of innocent people. Their explanation doesn't make much sense by the way. They said they shot it down because it was turning where it shouldn't have and at a suspicious altitude, but from my understanding, the plane didn't turn until after it was hit.

Yeah afaik and I do need to check again, but afaik that's a lie they have added in to save some face.

subpar spatula · Jan 10, 2020

krazen said:
I disagree. In wartime friendly fire happens all the time, and this was wartime. Commercial aircraft have gotten shot down by countries, including the US btw, under similar circumstances. Its easy to say Iran fucked up, but we set the scenario up that got us here. So I guess we won? Lol

Wartime excuses have been used to basically downplay a lot of shit within war. Justifying shooting down a plane full of non-combatants with "it's wartime" is the laziest, most awful thing ever. Like, it's how people just get over the fact the United States drones civilians because, "hey, it's wartime". No. It doesn't matter.

Deleted member 43 · Jan 10, 2020

This has never happened before because it's an absolutely incredible display of abject failure.

This is on Iran. They fucked up in an incalculable number of ways.

Darkstar0155 · Jan 10, 2020

Kintaro said:
First green hoodie guy has no fault in second green hoodie guy being punched on this scenario though. This is a bad example, or maybe its a good one.

The more apt anology is person A goes over to person B's neighborhood and person A gets involved in person Bs neighborhood gang fights. Person A starts a fight with person B. In the middle of the fight person B accidentally punches someone that was walking by that they thought were getting into the fight to help person A.

cameron · Jan 10, 2020

Philip Bump @pbump

Two things I'd note about Iran's admission.

1. Contrast with Russia's ongoing denial about MH17.
2. Very curious if the emergence of public evidence of a missile strike made denial impossible.

Again, from earlier: how that evidence accrued. https://wapo.st/35AaBYk

11:14 PM - Jan 10, 2020

kmfdmpig · Jan 10, 2020

They did try to cover it up until they realized they couldn't. I don't think they deserve much credit for admitting to something that they were caught red handed doing. Of course it's nice to no longer have to deal with those that don't trust any sources that go against their desired outcome.

-PXG- · Jan 10, 2020

And people actually thought it was due to "engine failure". Imagine being that naive...

Considering the timing and current circumstances, why wouldn't this outcome be your initial theory? How could anyone seriously think it was just a coincidence?

Serpens007 · Jan 10, 2020

NinjaScooter said:
I'm sure the broken heart emoji makes the families feel better

Should've done like Trump and added thoughts and prayers

This is so sad

Inuhanyou · Jan 10, 2020

Matt said:
This has never happened before because it's an absolutely incredible display of abject failure.

This is on Iran. They fucked up in an incalculable number of ways.

There were no mistaken airlines shot down before? Didnt the US blow up a Iranian passenger flight in the 80s with hundreds of people on board?

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.co...us-shootdown-of-iranian-airliner-flight-655/

Iran admits to shooting down Ukrainian airliner

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