Interesting twitter thread from author Brian McClellan W/R/T an author's obligation to finish a story

[spootime]

Fantasy author Brian McClellan recently posted an interesting twitter thread where he discusses whether fantasy authors have an obligation to readers and publishers to finish their series in a reasonable amount of time:




Neil Gaiman famously released an essay some time ago arguing that GRRM doesn't owe anyone anything. However, McClellan brings up three interesting points:

1. Authors not bothering to finish their series in a reasonable time-frame is harmful to other fantasy authors. Readers will be disinclined to start new fantasy series unless the series is complete (which would obviously guarantee new series are never completed). This is anecdotal, but I've had a number of IRL friends tell me that they don't have any interest in starting new fantasy series until the series is complete (or if it is written by someone famously prolific, such as Brandon Sanderson). This is exclusively because of GRRM, Rothfuss, or both.

2. By starting a series, authors enter into an unwritten contract with their readers. Most readers would not buy an authors initial book if they knew the series would never be finished.

3. Popular authors generally do contractually owe publishers books in a reasonable amount of time, but the publishing industry is incredibly lenient when it comes to deadlines. Extremely popular authors wield most of the power in the contractual relationship, and can basically pick and choose when and if they release books.

I found the first argument to be particularly interesting. I had never considered the effects that authors like GRRM and Rothfuss could have on other fantasy authors. So, what do you think ERA?

 

[Deleted member 28076]

No it isn't, no they don't, and I don't care what publishers want.

Agree with Gaiman 100%.

 

[Masoyama]

Authors can take as long as they wish. As a reader I decide where my "fuck you" line is and GRRM has crossed it. I went from staying up all night talking about his books, to literally having no interest in the series.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Doesn't matter if he finished GoT a AI will write the rest in 2020

 

[Quad Lasers]

I think all those points are fair while also acknowledging that GRRM shouldn't be beholden the rest of his life to a social contract with the people that have bought into his past work.

You can move on with your life AND unfortunately poison the well for the rest of the industry. It is what it is.

 

[Psittacus]

He's right in that most people expect closure and if the market continues to not cater to that expectation the bottom is going to fall out. That doesnt translate to obligation though. GRRM can burn the genre to the ground and laugh all the way to the bank.

He will be rightfully criticised for it but he doesnt owe us an ending.

 

[TheLucasLite]

Whether he "owes" his readers or not has never been the point imo. It's a faulty framing to begin with as almost nobody is ever "owed" anything in a market. It's always been about whether or not his failing to produce the whole work warrants criticism against him, and it does.

 

[Dary]

Speaking as a writer, I agree with Gaiman. Plenty of stories in every medium across the ages have gone unfinished, and I'd rather have no ending than a bad, rushed or forced one - at least then I can imagine.

 

[Deleted member 1698]

These are good points, but not in terms of an author owing anyone anything. They are more "well these are problems". We can probably work around each if required.

Writing is incredibly hard over a long period of time. Life happens, Trump gets elected, shit gets depressing.

If someone does produce something you enjoyed reading just celebrate that.

 

[Deleted member 48897]

This is why the best fantasy franchise writing is in the form of stuff like Redwall and Discworld where there are frequently significant narrative throughlines in the courses of the work but in general any one piece stands alone rather than tries to fit in as part of a single contiguous narrative. Say what I will about the later Harry Potter books and the editing thereof, they actually all got written.

EDIT: and to be clear I'm with Gaiman on this one.

 

[spootime]

This is why the best fantasy franchise writing is in the form of stuff like Redwall and Discworld where there are frequently significant narrative throughlines in the courses of the work but in general any one piece stands alone rather than tries to fit in as part of a single contiguous narrative. Say what I will about the later Harry Potter books and the editing thereof, they actually all got written.

EDIT: and to be clear I'm with Gaiman on this one.

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This is a point that I've seen brought up before. GRRM's delays wouldn't be nearly as painful if the stories were more self-contained. However I don't know whether that would affect the overarching narrative or not.

 

[Veelk]

Readers will be disinclined to start new fantasy series unless the series is complete

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This is probably the only point I consider relevant. Point 2 about readers would not start a series they knew wouldn't finish is moot as people would do lots of things differently if they could tell the future (How many people would have watched the Star Wars Prequels if they knew how bad they'd be?) and I don't believe in the 'unwritten contract' excuse is anything except conjecture posing as validation. I don't even see what the issue of point 3 is (why wouldn't massively successful authors hold creative control? (And I'm not arguing that is a positive case in ALL situations, as sometimes people work better in limitations, but you can't ever actually tell who does and does not until they are put in that situation)). But as far as point 1 goes, yes, I do see this as an issue....but it's not on that lays at the feet of authors, but rather readers who come off as fickle by valuing a destination over a journey. Endings are important parts of a story, but they are neither the only important part nor often even the most important part. I feel this way for a number of reasons, but if I had to pick one above all, it boils down to this:

If GRRM suddenly decided that he wouldn't finish A Song of Ice and Fire for whatever reason, I would be upset.... but the story wouldn't be ruined. A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, and A Dance of Dragons would continue to be novels worth reading for me because the writing in themselves is worthwhile even in the absence of a conclusion to the overall series, and I would still recommend them to anyone who wants to read a good fantasy story.

To argue that readers who refuse to pick up series because of a lack of guarantee of a series ending have a valid stance would be to argue that these books are not worth reading without book 7 in place, and that's just not true to me. If readers are not picking up new series because they need an series ending for it to be worth their while, I would argue that's them missing out on great stories.

 

[Contramann]

I like Brian McClellan and his books but I think he's wrong here. I think something needs to take exactly as much time as it needs if it means the quality will be where it needs to be. Sometimes that might mean it never comes out, but you know I'd rather have no book than a crap one. I think, unwritten contract or no, readers need to understand these authors don't live or die by them.

Rothfuss isn't subject to my whims about when and how the next book will come out, and suggest a ridiculous amount of ego on my part if I thought otherwise. I also think most frequent Fantasy/SciFi book series readers know a series might go on long enough or the author might die before it's complete, so I don't agree there either.

Only thing I can somewhat agree on is the Publishing Industry bit, but that's clearly not coming into play on Rothfuss or GRRM so that's not much of a point.

 

[Cabbagehead]

He's wrong.

These people are writing books not giving people water in Detroit Michigan. They have no obligation to finish shit, especially if the publisher is okay with it and they've already created 5 to 6 books already. Most of which are 500 to 1,000 pages each. I mean the moment authors within the format of a series start rushing their works is the minute people will bitch and moan that. The author ruined the series.

 

[TheIlliterati]

GRRM owes nobody anything. I agree that it makes me avoid starting new fantasy series since I've been in one form of limbo or another with ASOIAF since 2000, but that doesn't mean his responsibility to finish is suddenly greater. His books stand or fall in his own vacuum and he doesn't need to end it in order to convince me to read Sanderson.

 

[gosublime]

I get the first and second point he makes - I won't, for example, buy an episodic game until they are all out - but I don't think I'm owed them.

For example, Half-life is clearly never going to continue. I'm still not pleased about that (although the longer it goes on, the less I've cared, and now I dont think they'd be able to make a satisfying conclusion) but I don't think Valve owe me it.

 

[Deleted member 28076]

I mean, the most egregious thing is that Brian's trying to make an argument that authors not finishing franchises "poisons the well" for all the other authors writing franchises, while ignoring that none of those other authors are obligated to finish theirs either.

If he's trying to argue from a position of "even if x is true, it means y" and he's doing it extremely poorly.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

This is a point that I've seen brought up before. GRRM's delays wouldn't be nearly as painful if the stories were more self-contained. However I don't know whether that would affect the overarching narrative or not.

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And that is the key. Write each story as if it were self contained or ending the arc. But obviously leave enough there to make people want to continue. You shouldn't read or watch something then feel like you are missing a big chunk of the story by the end of it. Make the book its own narrative arc, but make it possible to keep continuing it.
The real trick is making a latter entry in a series easily accessible for a newcomer without having to read all the previous entries. It makes me think of the saying about comic book work, "Every comic is someone's first comic."

 

[kswiston]

The Sanderson counterpoint is sort of funny because, while he writes a ton of books, his major series are going to take decades to finish up.

Even if we just look at individual arcs for those series, the initial 5 book arc of the Stormlight Archive (out of a planned 10) will end up taking at least 13 years, and his second Mistborn arc is looking like it will end up taking around a decade to finish up as well (and unlike Stormlight, those books are fairly short).

Sanderson publishes a lot of books, but he juggles so many balls that no particular thing is finished all that quickly by fantasy series standards.

 

[Scarecrow]

No it isn't, no they don't, and I don't care what publishers want.

Agree with Gaiman 100%.

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.
Gaiman always wins.

 

[Kain]

Nah, it's only harmful for the authors themselves as they

1) Don't get "new" money from new books (they still get from older ones and side projects though)

2) Lowers their prestige

Readers at least get interesting books to read even if the stories aren't finished. I mean, one doesn't read a book exclusively for the over reaching arc, every book is a journey and every book is worth it. Don't get and ending/continuation? There's plenty of fish in the sea and that first book of that series was nice, move on.

At least that's my take.

 

[kswiston]

Nah, it's only harmful for the authors themselves as they

1) Don't get "new" money from new books (they still get from older ones and side projects though)

2) Lowers their prestige

Readers at least get interesting books to read even if the stories aren't finished. I mean, one doesn't read a book exclusively for the over reaching arc, every book is a journey and every book is worth it. Don't get and ending/continuation? There's plenty of fish in the sea and that first book of that series was nice, move on.

At least that's my take.

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GRRM doesn't care about either. Part of the issue here is that he started ASOIAF fairly late in his career. So he is now retirement age (and filthy rich from HBO royalties), so the drive/focus seems to not be there.

 

[spootime]

I mean, the most egregious thing is that Brian's trying to make an argument that authors not finishing franchises "poisons the well" for all the other authors writing franchises, while ignoring that none of those other authors are obligated to finish theirs either.

If he's trying to argue from a position of "even if x is true, it means y" and he's doing it extremely poorly.

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Brian's point as I interpreted it is that big names not finishing their series makes fantasy readers less likely to try new fantasy authors. At the very least, readers will want to wait until a series is complete before buying the books... but if the first book of a new author doesn't sell well the publisher isn't going to continue with the series. If Fantasy as a genre develops a reputation for half-finished stories, readers will seek other genres.

 

[kswiston]

Brian's point as I interpreted it is that big names not finishing their series makes fantasy readers less likely to try new fantasy authors. If Fantasy as a genre develops a reputation for half-finished stories, readers will seek other genres.

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It's sort of a silly point though when there are hundreds of finished stories, and only a handful of notable ASOIAF/Kingkiller type situations, from the past 2 decades.

 

[Alucrid]

Brian's point as I interpreted it is that big names not finishing their series makes fantasy readers less likely to try new fantasy authors. If Fantasy as a genre develops a reputation for half-finished stories, readers will seek other genres.

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i find it difficult to believe that people sitting on their hands not reading other fantasy books for years while they wait for a song of ice and fire to finish are really all that inclined to be turned off of reading more fantasy or even reading period if it doesn't finish. sounds to me like they just aren't readers.

 

[MadLaughter]

"He doesn't owe anyone anything"

This is a nothing argument that can apply to literally everything on earth. No one 'owes' anyone anything.

The fact that he's saying he will finish it is enough of a social contract that criticism is warranted if he doesn't come through.

 

[Zoc]

I agree in principle but not for the reasons given here.

Authors establish a relationship with readers, even though it may be one-sided. The author never meets the reader, usually, but nevertheless, the author invites the reader into a world, asks for the reader's trust, and in return can provide a real, emotional experience. I think that adds up to a relationship, and it imposes a kind of moral obligation on a writer to provide an ending, at the very least. It's a kind of abuse of trust to just abandon a story.

Perhaps this idea that emotional relationships impose some kind of obligation is unfashionable. We live in an era where people ghost their friends and family at the drop of a hat, and where people will drop their spouses, not because they are unhappy, but because they could be happier with someone else. It's still an idea that I strongly believe in, though.

 

[spootime]

It's sort of a silly point though when there are hundreds of finished stories, and only a handful of notable ASOIAF/Kingkiller type situations, from the past 2 decades.

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That is true. However, Kingkiller and ASOIAF are by far the most likely entry point for most readers into the fantasy genre.

i find it difficult to believe that people sitting on their hands not reading other fantasy books for years while they wait for a song of ice and fire to finish are really all that inclined to be turned off of reading more fantasy or even reading period if it doesn't finish. sounds to me like they just aren't readers.

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I edited my post to make it clearer. I don't disagree with your point generally but I could see it being difficult for new fantasy authors to establish themselves with an epic series in the same vein as KKC, ASOIAF, WOT, etc. If your first fantasy series is ASOIAF and your second is KKC, are you really going to want to take a chance on a new author who's on book 1 of 5? Or are you gonna just give it some time and see what happens? It's hard to really quantify it either way.

 

[Deleted member 8166]

1. Authors not bothering to finish their series in a reasonable time-frame is harmful to other fantasy authors. Readers will be disinclined to start new fantasy series unless the series is complete (which would obviously guarantee new series are never completed). This is anecdotal, but I've had a number of IRL friends tell me that they don't have any interest in starting new fantasy series until the series is complete (or if it is written by someone famously prolific, such as Brandon Sanderson). This is exclusively because of GRRM, Rothfuss, or both.


I found the first argument to be particularly interesting. I had never considered the effects that authors like GRRM and Rothfuss could have on other fantasy authors. So, what do you think ERA?

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this is exactly what I've started doing because of ASOIAF and king killer chronicles lol.

New book series will only be bought, if the series is done. I don't care anymore if I don't read the new hotness.*


*of course I am not perfect and some series get me into reading them before they are finished. I'm human after all.

 

[Deleted member 1698]

I agree in principle but not for the reasons given here.

Authors establish a relationship with readers, even though it may be one-sided. The author never meets the reader, usually, but nevertheless, the author invites the reader into a world, asks for the reader's trust, and in return can provide a real, emotional experience. I think that adds up to a relationship, and it imposes a kind of moral obligation on a writer to provide an ending, at the very least. It's a kind of abuse of trust to just abandon a story.

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I don't think this is true at all.

The popular "unfinished" series already have endings, I've written them in my mind. Sometimes I write other stories in my dreams, sometimes I don't visit for months or years. Tirion might die in AOIAF, he might not in the last book. But what then? The story goes on, the world still exists, there will always be something that happens next.

You see, there is no invitation, there is no such thing as an end. An author creates a world and writes about it. If people choose to visit, that is up to them but they are only ever guests. If they do a good job of it, the guest might just stay longer and carry on the world themselves.

As for not starting new epic series? This is indeed something to consider, however I've never had a problem with it. I have bookcases worth of stuff I've never even read, it'll keep me busy until the next book, should such an opportunity arise. When it does, you have the joy of re-reading, which is never a bad thing. Often I'll be more excited about revisiting an old friend, rather than going somewhere new. Sometimes things have changed a lot.