Insomniacs "Spider-Man" representation of prisoners is extremely outdated.

[sonicmj1]

Does Rikers only imprison people who have committed non-violent crimes?

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In the real world, Rikers Island's correctional complex is considered a jail, not a prison, because it does not hold people convicted of sentences of longer than one year.

The Rikers Island complex, which consists of ten jails, holds local offenders who are awaiting trial, serving sentences of one year or less, or are temporarily placed there pending transfer to another facility. Rikers Island is therefore not a prison by US terminology, which typically holds offenders serving longer-term sentences. It is home to ten of the New York City Department of Correction's fifteen facilities and can accommodate up to 15,000 detainees.

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For example, Kalief Browder, who was held for three years without trial after being accused of stealing a backpack (two years of which were in solitary confinement), was held in Rikers Island.

In the world of Spider-Man, on the other hand, it could be a very different place!

 

[Hazzuh]

Seeing people unironically make the "games don't exist in a vacuum" argument in this thread is fantastic.

Games don't exist in a vacuum and neither do you, and when literally ~every~ piece of media is subject to every hot take out there on the internet, no matter how smart or dumb it is? It gets exhausting, and it gets repetitive, because it's an echo chamber of "games don't exist in a vacuum" and it makes the context and the relevance of what could be a worthwhile argument? WORTHLESS. Because nothing constructive comes of it.

So yes, the game exists in a vacuum, yes, the "thermian argument", just "yes." That's it, that's all this has become, either you agree or disagree and nothing comes from it.

When people say "you can't enjoy things any more" it's not because people want to be oblivious to the realities of life, it's because there is no "sacred ground" in entertainment that allows people to peacefully enjoy an escape from reality without bringing it in and scrutinizing every single aspect of it. Just existing shouldn't be a moral and ethical conundrum when the content being put under the microscope isn't broadly problematic and is trying to aspire for something good. Not flawless, bust ~good~.

Should we be critical of content? Yes. Are we doing it in a productive way? No. We're going ham on everything because it's possible and all media is problematic. Did any of this resolve the very real concern that the current prison system has, or the world's perception of convicts? Nope. Did it bring awareness to the issue? Well... again: games don't exist in a vacuum and people with a relatively decent education are already aware of this, they won't be using a videogame to color their perception of an entire population, especially one that in lore (sorry thermian argument!) makes the distinction that they don't represent the general convicted "felon".

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What exactly do you think the purpose of a video game forum is? Someone gave their opinion of an aspect of a game and how it made them feel. I'm sorry if you find that exhausting, or repetitive but you actively sought it out! If you feel like that you don't have to read a video game forum and you certain didn't have to read this thread! You can agree or disagree with their view of the game - there's a very interesting discussion to had, that's the point! - but the number of people in this thread dismissing the idea of critically engaging with a piece of art in principle is ridiculous. You can't seek out critical coverage of a game then get angry that you're reading critical coverage of a game!

I'm sorry that our posts on internet forums don't solve the issues with the US prison system like they are supposed to though.

You clearly didn't understand my post.

Here, let me break down the problem with your argument(s).



THIS. RIGHT HERE.

"I can't believe you're telling us to shut up, especially considering the problems with _____"

Is the literal epitome of what I'm pointing to. Pick. your. battles. If everything is an issue, none of it resonates. Remember that part in my post where I mentioned an echo chamber? This is your echo chamber. "I cant believe you're telling us this, when ____ is also problematic." It's ~all~ problematic, and the mere fact that you have to bring up something else in a thread about a completely unrelated thread defines how much of a problem this is becoming.

Yes, CP2077 has issues, much more so than "Spider-Man doesn't represent the nuances of prison populations and our prison system", which is an infinitesimal amount less of an issue than CP2077's treatment of trans imagery, or its plausible racist undertones, and its downright ignorant portrayal and misuse of a genre intended to depict the bleak and dystopian nature of a morally bankrupt society ruled by capitalism, consumerism.

My post wasn't telling you to "shut up" it was telling you to learn to ~pick your battles~ because, moderation often times helps define an argument and establish key objectives and points needed for a productive, progressive argument. THIS isn't productive or progressive, it's just an ~echo chamber of hot takes about "problematic" things in media~

We know dude. WE KNOW it's problematic, that's not the problem. The problem here is, not permitting people to breathe just makes them exhausted. Your work load, your stress, your everything... is exhausting.

You don't go to work and say "I'M GOING TO DO ALL OF THE THINGS RIGHT NOW AND SUCCEED." because, guess what? You won't. and if you do? You won't succeed. You'll burn out. The same argument applies to discussions of problematic themes, tropes and tendencies in our media... if everything is problematic? How exactly are you supposed to tackle ~everything~? You can't. You end up arguing over something and you either agree or disagree... with nothing changing.

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Nobody is "picking battles" here at all? Its not like there is a committee that gets together and decides what topics the internet is allowed to discuss for the day. Someone is giving their opinion on a game and people are discussing it.

 

[BizzyBum]

I get it, but just think of it like Nathan Drake mowing down wave after wave of unnamed pirates and goons.

Game needs to throw enemies at you and the Raft is where violent criminals get put away. It's kinda nuts that Marvel's New York has that volume of violent criminals filling up the Raft, but it's a videogamey thing.

I do hope that future games in the series focus a little less on police activity and stuff, but I'm always gonna want more bad dudes to fight. Hopefully Insomniac is looking into ways to change up some of the narrative aspects of crime-fighting in these games because it is pretty shallow and can lead to this kinda thing.

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Yeah, pretty much my thoughts. If you start breaking it down and looking at it realistically the game is goofy as fuck fighting stereotypical barbaric inmates all tatted up who also somehow wield rocket launchers with homing capabilities with ease and somehow are committing crimes in NYC every 10 seconds on every city block. LOL

So basically, it's a video game being as video gamey as possible based on a comic book. They are just the "fight fodder" for the game to give players more side missions and fight instances throughout. That's kinda how you just have to look at it. Not saying that portrayal is okay and it is still goofy as hell but I don't think you're going to see drastic changes in a game like Spider-Man.

 

[Indy_Rex]

Nope, but it also doesn't only imprison people who have committed violent crimes and when you're depicting a real world prison that has real world prisoners your digital depiction only showing violent monsters is a rough way to go.

Nah I get the gist of your post and think it's mostly pseudo-intellectual nonsense from someone who doesn't want this conversation to be happening or who doesn't see the issue. Your argument basically boils down to:

This is not important enough to talk about, stop, you might be diluting moral arguments for more important things!

You're really bumming people out with the sheer volume of the moral complaints.

You're not making a difference with this conversation so stop trying.

It's a load of tripe, no matter how many paragraphs you devote to trying to make it sound reasonable.

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Every single one of your posts is you disagreeing with the people replying to you unless they agree with you, so thank you for proving my point.

 

[TreeMePls]

Nobody's being forced to play Spider-Man, therefore the whole argument behind thread is irrelevant.


I mean, really... this is your reply to my post?

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Literally the only thing people are doing is analyzing media they consumed that they liked enough to put more than a single brain cell of thought outside of "Wow these pixels look good"

 

[Diablos]

This is absolutely ridiculous. The prisoners act comical and are among the most dangerous. That's the whole point. Stop looking for problems where there aren't any and find something more productive to do with your time. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Duane]

I do get that a Spider-Man video game adaptation may not be the most likely place to buck the decades old trend of media depicting prisoners in a one note way.

But it probably is worth noting that Spider-Man is originally a story about bucking the status quo. Stan Lee literally wrote a fable in 1963 whose moral has modern relevance: if you don't act to change something you know isn't right, you've contributed to what happens through inaction. That's THE Spider-Man story that the rest of the franchise is built on. THE signature Stan Lee story, THE signature Marvel story.

With [power] comes [responsibility] and failure to fulfill it results in [consequences]

examples include

1963 fiction: [superpowers] > [stopping the robber] > [RIP Uncle Ben]

2020 irl: [cultural privilege] > [challenging unjust status quo] > [continuation of unjust status quo]

Insomiac: [huge AAA platform] > [challenging traditional media depictions] > [continuation of those depictions and their effect on the cultural psyche]


Is it a superhero video game's job to challenge these depictions? I don't know, but it seems like the heritage of this specific superhero video game is worth thinking through a little.

 

[Dewin]

Ok, so in Spiderman 2, all the thugs will run away scared or give up right away. Fine.

What kind of game are you left with then?

 

[Deleted member 1627]

Man, the attitude of some folks that we can't do fucking better or that we simply must not dare apply even a slight amount of critical thinking to the products we consume is so utterly bewilderingly frustrating.

Ok, so in Spiderman 2, all the thugs will run away scared or give up right away. Fine.

What kind of game are you left with then?

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Like, what even is this take? The prisoners are relegated to literal side quest fodder. The game has two other factions which are prominent in the story who have motivations and aren't one-note, outdated stereotypes.

Man, some of y'all really have no imagination or ambition at all other than to consume and resist change.

 

[TreeMePls]

Ok, so in Spiderman 2, all the thugs will run away scared or give up right away. Fine.

What kind of game are you left with then?

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A+ strawman

 

[Cordy]

this is like that image where people miss the point of cyberpunk but this time they are missing the point about how the fictional violent supercriminals are actually bad people and not a comparison to actual convicts and victims of the american prison system

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Right.

MM was very progressive in multiple areas even down to showing that Miles doesn't really get along with police much which then turns into helping the community directly through an app. Miles using sign language to communicate with Hailey, two women who are dating being represented well, the elderly not being seen as completely decrepit like some games do, a former woman who was homeless goes from that to getting off her feet and running FEAST, I mean, someone who's a bad person ends up reforming, someone else who was once thought as bad proves that they're truly not as horrible as portrayed. There's a lot of stuff, numerous other things too throughout the game. Some things so small a lot of people don't pick up on. We really had some people not realize that they went from the "hey all police are amazing" thing in the first game to Miles's opinion on it. Of course Miles's heritage is presented greatly and I gotta throw in a shoutout to them for giving respect to hip-hop all through this game down to Bo1da helping produce the soundtrack, we appreciate the representation.

In this case they explained a good reason why these certain people are the enemies. They're not saying "nah they're all like that" they're saying that "hey these particular ones are that way."

 

[Indy_Rex]

Man, the attitude of some folks that we can't do fucking better or that we simply must not dare apply even a slight amount of critical thinking to the products we consume is so utterly bewilderingly frustrating.

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You're an adult, you can do both (in fact, most of us already do), they're not mutually exclusive.

 

[Mekanos]

Nobody's being forced to play Spider-Man, therefore the whole argument behind thread is irrelevant.


I mean, really... this is your reply to my post?

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You didn't answer my question.

 

[dodo]

Every single one of your posts is you disagreeing with the people replying to you unless they agree with you, so thank you for proving my point.

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i mean to be fair this is sort of how communication works

 

[Kcannon]

I find it weird so many people mention Yakuza for doing stuff right when it's a series that romanticizes an incredibly powerful and cruel faction of Japanese organized crime.

 

[Death Penalty]

Every single one of your posts is you disagreeing with the people replying to you unless they agree with you, so thank you for proving my point.

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Which one of your three crazy fallacious points did I prove? If you shouldn't respond to people you disagree with pointlessly, why are you posting in here? Why are you responding directly to me? I'll tell you why I'm doing it: Having a conversation is in and of itself valuable and I've actually come to reasonably friendly conclusions with a few people in this thread already. The Spider-Man Insomniac series has already made positive change in regards to portrayals of the police, I don't see why they can't do the same on this front as well.

But go ahead and keep talking down to people about what is and is not important enough to merit talking about.

 

[gothmog]

While I think the discussion here is interesting, isn't the premise a bit off? Without spoiling anything major IIRC prisoners became part of the SM story via a riot, prison break, and a highly organized effort to destabilize NYC. Them staying in jumpsuits and taking over parts of the city violently was part of the plan I assumed to show how much the person in charge was failing by literally showing prisoners taking over the city in a violent way. I assumed more than a few prisoners fled into the shadows and changed out of their outfits.

 

[NoKisum]

So, what should Spider-Man 2 do with criminals and police ?
Or police characters at all like Yuri, Captain Stacy or Jefferson Davis ?

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Obviously they're all automatically villains on the same level as Vulture and Mister Negative. ACAB.

Next game will be about JJJ somehow becoming the new Police Commissioner, with his biggest job being to take down the Spider-Men any way he can, including hiring his son, former Air Force Colonel John Jameson, and with full financial backing by Norman Osborn.

 

[Deleted member 1627]

You're an adult, you can do both (in fact, most of us already do), they're not mutually exclusive.

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Kindly miss me with this, thanks in advance.

 

[gogosox82]

Here, this guy did it for you:

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the post basically says 'stop talking about issues in the game so i can enjoy it in peace'. Is that something you agree with?

Edit: also this doesn't explain why its different which is what you said.

 

[Death Penalty]

Ok, so in Spiderman 2, all the thugs will run away scared or give up right away. Fine.

What kind of game are you left with then?

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This isn't what anyone is asking for. There are lots of decent explanations in the thread for what the issue is and some potential suggestions for how it could be made better.

 

[Indy_Rex]

You didn't answer my question.

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I didn't have to.

i mean to be fair this is sort of how communication works

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I mean, like... A conversation and good communication is a back-and-forth discussion. Not "Here's my point, I've made my point. I'm not accepting your point. I'm going to deny you your point and neg you for making your point. Only my point is valid unless you agree." That's just talking to a wall and not worth the effort.

 

[Dewin]

Man, the attitude of some folks that we can't do fucking better or that we simply must not dare apply even a slight amount of critical thinking to the products we consume is so utterly bewilderingly frustrating.



Like, what even is this take? The prisoners are relegated to literal side quest fodder. The game has two other factions which are prominent in the story who have motivations and aren't one-note, outdated stereotypes.

Man, some of y'all really have no imagination or ambition at all other than to consume and resist change.

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So high tech soldiers that shoot everything on sight and Mafia mobsters aren't outdated stereotypes?

 

[Froyo Love]

Is the literal epitome of what I'm pointing to. Pick. your. battles. If everything is an issue, none of it resonates. Remember that part in my post where I mentioned an echo chamber? This is your echo chamber. "I cant believe you're telling us this, when ____ is also problematic." It's ~all~ problematic, and the mere fact that you have to bring up something else in a thread about a completely unrelated thread defines how much of a problem this is becoming.

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this is literally just you saying "I don't think this matters, other stuff is worse"

why the fuck does the OP have an obligation to make sure that posting their opinion is in line with the strategic prioritization that you personally think is the best for promoting progressive values

 

[Raonak]

I think insomniacs representation of roxxon security guards is extremely outdated too.

But then again, it's a superhero game.

 

[CaptainKashup]

Obviously they're all automatically villains on the same level as Vulture and Mister Negative. ACAB.

Next game will be about JJJ somehow becoming the new Police Commissioner, with his biggest job being to take down the Spider-Men any way he can, including hiring his son, former Air Force Colonel John Jameson, and with full financial backing by Norman Osborn.

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I know you're joking but I feel like a lot of people here truly believes that absolutely everyone in the police is evil incarnate

 

[Redstreak]

I don't think anyone is saying just limit it to prisons, but this thread is about prisons and prisoners and how they're portrayed.

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Idk, it just seems problematic to limit a discussion of this importance to only prisons :/

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

I didn't have to.



I mean, like... A conversation and good communication is a back-and-forth discussion. Not "Here's my point, I've made my point. I'm not accepting your point. I'm going to deny you your point and neg you for making your point. Only my point is valid unless you agree." That's just talking to a wall and not worth the effort.

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when your point boils down to "this isn't important enough to be worth talking about" rejecting the premise is 100% necessary to continue the conversation. Someone pointing out you have shaky foundations isn't trying to shut down a conversation, acepting the arguments you have been making actually does.

 

[Niks]

This thread sure is something.

 

[It’s Time To Go]

Don't you people get tired of over-analyzing every single thing in videogames?

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Don't you get tired of posting this thread on gaf?

 

[Nepenthe]

If someone cares about the idea of criminal rehabilitation, it seems like a high-profile video game that features concerning stereotypes of prisoners might actually be the perfect thing to discuss on a video game forum, and that the battle has been chosen correctly.

 

[Gol]

This is absolutely ridiculous. The prisoners act comical and are among the most dangerous. That's the whole point. Stop looking for problems where there aren't any and find something more productive to do with your time. Absolutely ridiculous.

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That was my first thought.

 

[Indy_Rex]

this is literally just you saying "I don't think this matters, other stuff is worse"

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Yes.

why the fuck does the OP have an obligation to make sure that posting their opinion is in line with the strategic prioritization that you personally think is the best for promoting progressive values

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I made my point in the post, I don't think I should be spamming it again, for the third time. :)

(Also, calm down.)

 

[Death Penalty]

If someone cares about the idea of criminal rehabilitation, it seems like a high-profile video game that features concerning stereotypes of prisoners might actually be the perfect thing to discuss on a video game forum, and that the battle has been chosen correctly.

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Thank you!

 

[Deepwater]

When your argument eventually boils down to "let me enjoy things" it's hard to take this sites common talking point of "video games are art" as anything but deeply unserious.

 

[Froyo Love]

Yes.

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what are the issues in video games that matter enough that you think they're okay to talk about? what's the evaluation process where representation of trans issues in Cyberpunk is worth discussing and representation of the prison system in Spider-Man is not?

 

[Palette Swap]

Yes.



I made my point in the post, I don't think I should be spamming it again, for the third time. :)

(Also, calm down.)

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This is a perfect example of the hokey, passive aggressive civility that shits up threads and shuts people down that posters have been complaining about.

 

[Death Penalty]

This is a perfect example of the hokey, passive aggressive civility that shits up threads and shuts people down that posters have been complaining about.

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Really seems like it. The argument did start out with "Spider-Man just wants to be entertaining" so that tells you the sort of place this is all coming from.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Every single one of your posts is you disagreeing with the people replying to you unless they agree with you, so thank you for proving my point.

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The irony of you saying people pointing out problematic ideas in media are over reacting, but you're in here making the most benign thing about talking to people on an internet forum seem like a major offense.

 

[Froyo Love]

(Also, calm down.)

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friend I posted a swear word, you posted in bold, italics, and all upper case and threw tildes everywhere while replying to gogosx82

I think you could reflect a little about who is calm and whose philosophical position is "not permitting people to breathe"

 

[Deleted member 1627]

So high tech soldiers that shoot everything on sight and Mafia mobsters aren't outdated stereotypes?

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Just stop, man.

 

[PaperSparrow]

Yes.

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People want to talk about this. Saying "no you don't" is a lazy way of engaging. If you don't think it's an interesting topic, there are many others on this forum you could read.

 

[Niosai]

To be fair, this is a game with supervillains and the Avengers. I can assume that many would-be criminals would be dissuaded unless they were the super tough violent type. Comic book stuff.

 

[AMAKAN93]

I mean, yeah, I guess.

It's definitely outdated, uninspired and lazy but by no means is it offensive.

 

[TheAuldTriangle]

12 pages on fictional prisoners in a comoc book universe. Only on Era.

 

[Redstreak]

it seems super contradictory to believe that games are art (like i'm sure most people here do) but completely deny/not engage in any meaningful critical discussion about a game's ideological positions and instead just mock people who bring concerns up

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The problem is when you start believing a question or criticism is legitimate just because it exists. Someone thinking this particular instance of criticism is nonsensical doesn't suddenly mean they think that games should never be analyzed for its ethical decisions

 

[Bramblebutt]

You clearly didn't understand my post.

Here, let me break down the problem with your argument(s).



THIS. RIGHT HERE.

"I can't believe you're telling us to shut up, especially considering the problems with _____"

Is the literal epitome of what I'm pointing to. Pick. your. battles. If everything is an issue, none of it resonates. Remember that part in my post where I mentioned an echo chamber? This is your echo chamber. "I cant believe you're telling us this, when ____ is also problematic." It's ~all~ problematic, and the mere fact that you have to bring up something else in a thread about a completely unrelated thread defines how much of a problem this is becoming.

Yes, CP2077 has issues, much more so than "Spider-Man doesn't represent the nuances of prison populations and our prison system", which is an infinitesimal amount less of an issue than CP2077's treatment of trans imagery, or its plausible racist undertones, and its downright ignorant portrayal and misuse of a genre intended to depict the bleak and dystopian nature of a morally bankrupt society ruled by capitalism, consumerism.

My post wasn't telling you to "shut up" it was telling you to learn to ~pick your battles~ because, moderation often times helps define an argument and establish key objectives and points needed for a productive, progressive argument. THIS isn't productive or progressive, it's just an ~echo chamber of hot takes about "problematic" things in media~

We know dude. WE KNOW it's problematic, that's not the problem. The problem here is, not permitting people to breathe just makes them exhausted. Your work load, your stress, your everything... is exhausting.

You don't go to work and say "I'M GOING TO DO ALL OF THE THINGS RIGHT NOW AND SUCCEED." because, guess what? You won't. and if you do? You won't succeed. You'll burn out. The same argument applies to discussions of problematic themes, tropes and tendencies in our media... if everything is problematic? How exactly are you supposed to tackle ~everything~? You can't. You end up arguing over something and you either agree or disagree... with nothing changing.

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I live in a country whose carceral state is its greatest engine of human misery and alienation. I think it's perhaps worth discussion how the media we consume reinforces a dehumanizing narrative about those our society imprisons. Even if that's inconvenient to you.

 

[KillingJoke]

Uh, how is "criminals in jail = bad people" an outdated stereotype?

And why is that even offensive? it's Spider-Man, who takes down criminals, and those same criminals want revenge. Not seeing the issue.

 

[TheChungusAmongUs]

When your argument eventually boils down to "let me enjoy things" it's hard to take this sites common talking point of "video games are art" as anything but deeply unserious.

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I feel the whole using "well if people are not against the criticism of the portrayal of prisoners in Spiderman then they can't say video games are art" thing such a weird take considering there are debates regarding superhero movies even being considered cinema after Martin Scorsese said they weren't "real cinema"

I honestly don't see Spiderman as "art" which is why I am not looking to it for a nuanced interpretation of the prison industrial complex, police, etc but it does muddy those waters due to it seeming almost reactive to George Floyd's death.

 

[Mekanos]

Uh, how is "criminals in jail = bad people" an outdated stereotype?

And why is that even offensive? it's Spider-Man, who takes down criminals, and those same criminals want revenge. Not seeing the issue.

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Anyone who breaks the law is a criminal. Are all laws just?