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gordofredito

Banned
Jan 16, 2018
2,992
damn, present the CEO with receipts on friday or tell him why you don't wanna participate in this? Sounds like a "buy it, or tell me why you want to get fired"
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
This is not whistleblowing, let's not dramatize this and make the leaker seem heroic. You seem to have no sensibility of the world outside of gaming.

I am not defending the CEO or the content of the email. I am saying leaking is unprofessional. You may understand this when you work long enough.
I didn't know Sean Spicer had an ERA account.
 

Deleted member 2321

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,555
There's no overreaction, it's part of their review policy and they very clearly broke it. It's pretty open and shut.

Sure. Still an overreaction. A warning would do.

Or how does death sentence for jaywalking sound to you?

VALVe is ending a company and a bunch of jobs here.

VALVe, former game company that stopped making games - now also stopping others.

EDIT: Also, everyone is doing it.

On Booking.com, on Yelp... you name it.

Not everyone has a moron on staff who goes public with it though.
 

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
Sure. Still an overreaction. A warning would do.

Or how does death sentence for jaywalking sound to you?

VALVe is ending a company and a bunch of jobs here.

VALVe, former game company that stopped making games - now also stopping others.
Just to clarify here, you understand that the reason Valve delisted their games is NOT because of what was in the email, correct?
 

spindoctor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
434
Sure. Still an overreaction. A warning would do.

Or how does death sentence for jaywalking sound to you?

VALVe is ending a company and a bunch of jobs here.

VALVe, former game company that stopped making games - now also stopping others.

EDIT: Also, everyone is doing it.

On Booking.com, on Yelp... you name it.

Not everyone has a moron on staff who goes public with it though.

Gotta love these comedy posts. Made better by the fact that they're actually sincere despite looking like parody.
 

AHindD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41
Sure. Still an overreaction. A warning would do.

Or how does death sentence for jaywalking sound to you?

VALVe is ending a company and a bunch of jobs here.

VALVe, former game company that stopped making games - now also stopping others.

EDIT: Also, everyone is doing it.

On Booking.com, on Yelp... you name it.

Not everyone has a moron on staff who goes public with it though.

Why is it Valve's, who are themselves a private company, responsibility to defend or protect another company when they do something so utterly stupid, unethical, and against Valve's own terms of service?
 

Cranston

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,377
If you invest your life and soul and finances into a game, I think you're entitled to ask your staff to maybe write a three line review for the game.
 

AHindD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41
If you invest your life and soul and finances into a game, I think you're entitled to ask your staff to maybe write a three line review for the game.

Am I in fucking crazy land right now? We cant be having this discussion, surely.
How is it in any way ethical to ask your own employees to give positive reviews for your own product, thereby enticing customers to a product by artificially inflating the positive perception of your game?
 

Gaz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,332
UK
Take a risk by breaking the rules.... Deal with the consequences if caught.

Nothing more too it.
 

Deleted member 2321

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,555
Am I in fucking crazy land right now? We cant be having this discussion, surely.
How is it in any way ethical to ask your own employees to give positive reviews for your own product, thereby enticing customers to a product by artificially inflating the positive perception of your game?

You need to chill a bit. User reviews - by nature complete bullshit.

Sure there are rules set up by VALVe in place, sure they were broken.

But ending a company and putting people out of jobs is simply too much.

Even for the heart and soul-less money making machine that is VALVe these days.
 

Zips

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
Good on Valve for this move.

Glad they weren't just given a "warning" as some people here seem to think this warranted. Valve has policies in place. It would be absurd to say that X company gets a warning and then Y company comes along and goes, "well, X only got a warning, why not us?!" It would set a terrible precedent.
 

AHindD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41
You need to chill a bit. User reviews - by nature complete bullshit.

Sure there are rules set up by VALVe in place, sure they were broken.

But ending a company and putting people out of jobs is simply too much.

Even for the heart and soul-less money making machine that is VALVe these days.

I'm sorry, but if 100% of your company's existence relies on another company letting you onto their platform, you would want to make damn sure you follow their rules.
 

Rickenslacker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,415
You need to chill a bit. User reviews - by nature complete bullshit.

Sure there are rules set up by VALVe in place, sure they were broken.

But ending a company and putting people out of jobs is simply too much.

Even for the heart and soul-less money making machine that is VALVe these days.
Valve isn't the only service to place games on. It would be wise when running a business if one were so contingent on a single third party to then take the opportunity to educate themselves on the policies of the third party they're using for distribution. It appears Insel's CEO was unwise.

Valve isn't ending the company, Valve isn't taking away the jobs, they don't have any responsibility to bear on how another company conducts themselves. It's their store, they can make the rules whatever they want.
 

xrnzaaas

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,125
The CEO should also stalk his employees on Steam to see how much they're playing. Not enough - YOU'RE FIRED.

Edit: Oh noes, now he can't. Hopefully other people from the studio will land on their feet since the studio probably won't survive.
 

Axass

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,384
I'm astonished we have people defending the CEO and attacking the leaker. Legit a bit scared too.

We're talking of someone threatening his employees and basically forcing them to do unethical things, which are directly against Steam's guidelines, or face the repercussions. All of that to trick the consumers into buying something they perceive as well received. A plan which would hardly bring a lot of benefits, if you ask me.

And here we are, consumers, debating whether it's okay or not to let us be tricked by fake reviews. Wow.

And let's not talk about the old tired "everybody's doing it" excuse, which is something that has never held any ground in a logical discussion.
 

Deleted member 2321

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,555
There are no warnings in the real world.

That´s simply not true.

You don´t lose your drivers license for you first offense.

You don´t go to jail for stealing a candy bar - you will if you do it over and over though.

If you´re nice a cop might let you off with a warning - yes, that is a thing.

Also - probation.
 

Cranston

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,377
How is it in any way ethical to ask your own employees to give positive reviews for your own product, thereby enticing customers to a product by artificially inflating the positive perception of your game?

Because you're a team and you work together and promoting the product might help revenue and boost the companies profit and chance of success.
 

jedmund

Member
Oct 27, 2017
67
That´s simply not true.

You don´t lose your drivers license for you first offense.

You don´t go to jail for stealing a candy bar - you will if you do it over and over though.

If you´re nice a cop might let you off with a warning - yes, that is a thing.

Also - probation.

While those are some nice cherry-picked examples, fortunately for users, thats not how platforms work.

If Steam (or any platform) gave every publisher one strike for breaking their rules, then every publisher would manipulate reviews as much as possible until they got caught. Then, they'd never do it again. Regardless, even a little bit of manipulation done by a large enough company can generate at least tens of thousands of dollars based on misinformation.

That's not even mentioning the response of gamers, who are typically an incredibly rabid bunch. There would be blood. It wouldn't be overnight, but Steam would eventually lose their foothold as the industry-standard games marketplace.

Platforms—every platform, be it Steam, Amazon, Apple, etc—have to be incredibly strict or else opportunists *will* exploit them to make as much money as possible, as quickly as possible. Platform holders are beholden to their users, or they'll go to a competing platform. While every platform holder has their own quirks and levels of strictness, its indubitably a good thing that there are no warnings or exceptions for people who break the rules. If this CEO didn't want to tank his own company, he should have either made a better game or hired better marketers.
 

Dakkon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,194
You need to chill a bit. User reviews - by nature complete bullshit..

If they are "complete bullshit" how come the CEO is putting an immense focus on reviews and saying the success of their game depends on it?

It's not possible to have it both ways here, and he cares because the overall review score does tend to impact sales positively/negatively, and sales are extremely important on Steam since the amount of Update Visibility Rounds you are allowed to use is tied directly into them and as your game sells well & review score goes up it automatically increases the Organic Visibility alongside boosting the game further on store filtering as well. Not having a review score is pretty killer when it comes to the Organic Visbility & Store Filtering parts especially.

If you don't get a review score (or get a fairly negative one) in your first couple days of launch and your game doesn't sell well (which is likely the case if you don't have a review score or have a very negative one, Steam users tend to be pretty review heavy), you get stuck in a blackhole of underperforming, as even if you update a game if you run out of UVR's you have no way of making the update (which might make the game good!) prominent on Steam which combined with low sales & bad reviews is a death sentence on the platform unless you get some KILLER positive word of mouth externally which isn't likely if you're in this situation in the first place.

(Also you already receive multiple warnings about this stuff when you sign up for your Steamworks account and on the Steamworks documentation & site.)
 

Diablos

has a title.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,595
It's still in early access?

What a pathetic email. I'd probably walk out after reading that horseshit.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
This is really unfortunate for everyone involved.
If Insel were only a little bit smarter about this the whole situation could have been avoided.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
This is not whistleblowing, let's not dramatize this and make the leaker seem heroic. You seem to have no sensibility of the world outside of gaming.

Don't confuse cynicism and lack of integrity with world savviness.

I am not defending the CEO or the content of the email. I am saying leaking is unprofessional. You may understand this when you work long enough.

I've been a software engineer for the last 20 years, leading several projects. How about you?
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 2321

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,555
Platforms—every platform, be it Steam, Amazon, Apple, etc—have to be incredibly strict or else opportunists *will* exploit them to make as much money as possible, as quickly as possible. Platform holders are beholden to their users, or they'll go to a competing platform. While every platform holder has their own quirks and levels of strictness, its indubitably a good thing that there are no warnings or exceptions for people who break the rules. If this CEO didn't want to tank his own company, he should have either made a better game or hired better marketers.

I like to believe that we are not living in the dystopian future where companies run everything yet. To Steam everything might be numbers, but I´m still thinking about the people who had a job a couple of hours ago and are now heading towards an uncertain future.

Look, I´m not saying that rules were not broken.

I am saying that the punishment is to severe because VALVe is de facto ending a company here.

I´m not changing my mind on this.
 

Deleted member 26684

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
220
I'm disappointed. This company appeared to purchase failed projects from other countries, like Embergarde, and repackage them to release elsewhere, like Guardians of Ember. Not a terrible idea in the ephemeral world of digital-only releases, especially with anything online-heavy that either completely succeeds or completely fails. Now I'm curious what their marketing was like.

It's not ethical but it's how the world works.
It's how the world works because few dare to question it. Someone decided to here.
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
There's no reason user reviews should be bullshit. And why sites shouldn't take steps against.
Also since they devised plan against document limitations designed to prevent this (having users buy using accounts, instead of having key or otherwise acquiring such as developer autogrant), proves CEO knew exactly what he was doing was against Valve's rules.

Considering, same accounts had reviewed other games, they had done this prior too, but simply didn't get caught.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,481
United Kingdom
The world works the way people make it work. It's not a magical separate entity that people have no control over. "It's just the way it is" is the laziest excuse imaginable to allow immoral behaviour.
I agree, the world should be ethical and perfect.

But the world is shit and hard, people have bills to pay and need to keep jobs, and compared to some requests, asking for fake reviews is really not worth getting mad over.

This company, and most if not all of their employees, are now likely fucked.
 

War3333

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
While those are some nice cherry-picked examples, fortunately for users, thats not how platforms work.

If Steam (or any platform) gave every publisher one strike for breaking their rules, then every publisher would manipulate reviews as much as possible until they got caught. Then, they'd never do it again. Regardless, even a little bit of manipulation done by a large enough company can generate at least tens of thousands of dollars based on misinformation.

That's not even mentioning the response of gamers, who are typically an incredibly rabid bunch. There would be blood. It wouldn't be overnight, but Steam would eventually lose their foothold as the industry-standard games marketplace.

Platforms—every platform, be it Steam, Amazon, Apple, etc—have to be incredibly strict or else opportunists *will* exploit them to make as much money as possible, as quickly as possible. Platform holders are beholden to their users, or they'll go to a competing platform. While every platform holder has their own quirks and levels of strictness, its indubitably a good thing that there are no warnings or exceptions for people who break the rules. If this CEO didn't want to tank his own company, he should have either made a better game or hired better marketers.

I'm quite sure that a big disclaimer on the page of the game and letting only curators review on that title for like a year should work good enough as a punishment that banning the entire company. Especially if your platform is a defacto monopoly like Steam.

But I understand the problems that arise in beeing too soft.
 

Igniz12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,443
I agree, the world should be ethical and perfect.

But the world is shit and hard, people have bills to pay and need to keep jobs, and compared to some requests, asking for fake reviews is really not worth getting mad over.

This company, and most if not all of their employees, are now likely fucked.
Ok, feeling bad for a company and its employees is one thing but making it seem like the only way anyone can sell anything on Steam is to game the review system is a bit much. We can agree that this is a grey situation but lets not make it more than that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,481
United Kingdom
Ok, feeling bad for a company and its employees is one thing but making it seem like the only way anyone can sell anything on Steam is to game the review system is a bit much. We can agree that this is a grey situation but lets not make it more than that.
I'm not saying it's the only way to survive, I'm saying that in business NOBODY plays fair, and in the grand scheme of things, this is one of the least offensive things the boss could have asked.

I guarantee you Valve bosses have asked people to do 100x worse in their journey to success.

I've worked for a lot of companies, from family-run to large corporations, and this wouldn't even make the top 200 of bad requests I've heard. Top 500, even.

I feel like a lot of people in this thread must have little experience in working for companies in the real world.
 

Deleted member 2321

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,555
On the plus side, they are now ethically pure and righteous.

Let us give thanks.

Amen.

4961101-4261275391-photo.jpg
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I agree, the world should be ethical and perfect.

But the world is shit and hard, people have bills to pay and need to keep jobs, and compared to some requests, asking for fake reviews is really not worth getting mad over.

This company, and most if not all of their employees, are now likely fucked.

Actually, nobody knew about this game until now. If this goes viral, it will get vastly more exposure than it would have otherwise. Sure, many people will be disgusted at the practive, but even the fraction of people who don't, and are actually interested in the game, will be probably much higher than it would have got on its own. No such thing as bad publicity.

In any case, if your company is putting a game that is in such dire straits to sell as to force its employees to write fake reviews, it probably wasn't going to last long anyway. Qualified game developers don't usually have issues finding new jobs, either.

We can theorize all we want about consequences. What we can't theorize about is integrity. If you value your own integrity enough, and do what you know is right, you will rarely have regrets.
 

Deleted member 26684

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
220
I feel like a lot of people in this thread must have little experience in working for companies in the real world.
At least one person in this thread has already stated that they're a long-time professional, and they spoke out against what Insel was doing. I'm sure there are others.

Your argument is getting close to "they get away with it, why can't I?!" territory. I'm not sure that's a place you wanna go.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,550
I like to believe that we are not living in the dystopian future where companies run everything yet. To Steam everything might be numbers, but I´m still thinking about the people who had a job a couple of hours ago and are now heading towards an uncertain future.
By the sound of the CEO's e-mail, that certainly didn't change.
 

Booker.DeWitt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,844
The leaker should have not done that.

Don't review, don't accept money, and if you are fired , so be it.

Now you leaked, you probably will be fired anyways, but now you compromised the whole company, and morr people might be fired, just not only you and CEO

This is not whistleblowing at all, there is nothing illegal going on , so you are not legally protected from leaking. This is unethical, different story.