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androvsky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,503
That doesn't sound like it was a certification thing to me but I'm not sure. I'm not sure how a cert process would even run a test on every piece of the game to make sure it didn't pass the epilepsy tests, whatever they would be.

Would be interested if anyone knows more on that, obviously.
Yeah, they certainly couldn't run every part of every game, it'd have to work like a ratings board where the devs submit whatever footage it is they're not certain about. Which, of course, puts it back on the devs.

But Sony lost a major lawsuit over a lack of epilepsy warnings a while back, so if there's any part of cert that would involve someone from Sony seeing that epilepsy helmet sequence they would have noted it.
 

Lemony1984

Member
Jul 7, 2020
6,695
Yeah, they certainly couldn't run every part of every game, it'd have to work like a ratings board where the devs submit whatever footage it is they're not certain about. Which, of course, puts it back on the devs.

But Sony lost a major lawsuit over a lack of epilepsy warnings a while back, so if there's any part of cert that would involve someone from Sony seeing that epilepsy helmet sequence they would have noted it.
Exactly. That's why I said it likely isn't part of cert. If it was, it would have failed.
 

Lepi

Member
Mar 24, 2020
644
I guess this needs explaining because obsessive nerds are desperate to blame anyone other than CDPR?
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
7,903
Montreal
Question about the bricking thing being part of the process didn't blops brick some ps5's? How did activision get it through if that's the case.

Even on projects where QA employs thousands of people, you still will miss things because millions of people have their own unique situations and ways of doing things that trigger the weirdest stuff. QA is more a preventative process than it is an all encompassing one.
 

Viale

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,614
I thought this was known?
It is. However, people need reminding because there is a lot of blame being thrown around.

It's the same thing like people blaming QA for bugs making it to release(like some people in this thread) when we also know that's not the case.
 

dunkzilla

alt account
Banned
Dec 13, 2018
4,762
Question about the bricking thing being part of the process didn't blops brick some ps5's? How did activision get it through if that's the case.
A piece of software can go through stringent QA (and certification or whatever) and once it reaches a customer, they do certain things in certain ways that no one on the testing team would have even thought of and find bugs, or bricking in this case. QA is hard because it's impossible to replicate all the different ways a customer will interact with a certain piece of software.
 

Dartastic

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,779
Yeah, he's spot on about this. I do wonder how much more lax things have become over the last ten years, which is when I worked in Cert at EA. Back then hard crashes were critical bugs. If a game had a hard crash, it would not pass cert.
 

InfiniDragon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,306
I can bet you that these issues were encountered and reported to the proper developer :) . Its a choice the publisher makes to ship it as is.

As someone who worked in QA in the past, this is 100% the case. The bugs were almost certainly reported, the higher ups decide if reported bugs by QA are worth looking into to pursuing or if they ship as it is.

The basic description of cert they could provide is also accurate as well, it's not on the console makers to block a game from cert as long as it passes the legal checks, unless the game is first party where they also developed it themselves. That's again, on the studio that made it and their upper management to determine if they hold back the game because of stuff like pop in, textures not loading and so on.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,597
So, to recap, you came into this thread, admit you don't understand much about the "mess" of this game and then outright ignore the words of someone who does know what they're talking about regarding the platform holders role in this.

There are plenty of things to dunk on the platform holders about (like sony's refund policy), the state of 2077 at release is not one of those things.

I follow this dev and respect the hell out of him, I'd rather not pretend to say I can hold a candle to his knowledge.

Yes he's doing a great job explaining something which he has no obligation to but is clearly unhappy with the "mess" we are seeing.

I'm not calling the game alone a mess, I actually wouldn't say that anyway.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,714
Atrocious shovelware filled with horrible bugs and low performance has been being released on major consoles since the beginning of time, yet people are all :surprised pikachu: when they come across a game filled with horrible bugs and low performance. The burden on the platform holders doesn't change just because people are expecting a game to be good.

That being said, I think this is another reminder that Sony and Microsoft need to have better refund policies.
 

City 17

Member
Oct 25, 2017
913
"Cert means the game should not mess up your console, or your ability to use your console "

Well, Miles Morales did exactly that. I guess they just waived it all.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
"Cert means the game should not mess up your console, or your ability to use your console "

Well, Miles Morales did exactly that. I guess they just waived it all.
No, most likely that just wasn't caught in cert.

No QA or cert testing will ever be able to cover the full breadth of what actual consumers will experience.
 

Minthara

Freelance Market Director
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
7,903
Montreal
Shouldn't cert catch things like uncapped frame rate in menus or Pruett silly things that put the fans into hyper drive?

Unless its on the checklist of things the platform holder does not allow, no. Generally those kinds of things are covered by "soak" tests - where people leave the game on gameplay, in a demanding area or on the pause menu overnight/for days on end to root out out of memory crashes and other similar bugs. That generally falls under normal QA though.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,422
I feel like people don't realize that every bug and more is found by QA typically. They didn't miss these bugs, they just released it anyway due to business reasons.

I think I started realizing this the more Betas I took place in starting in the mid 1990's for PC games of many genres....

So many bug reports submitted that turned into big issues post launch as they were NEVER given attention... And Im like "whelp, I know I personally reported that one like a million times so whatever".

Its even still happening today, so nothings changed. Classic WoW is a re-release of a 15 year old game and I beta tested and reported shit that still went live. If they still let 15 year old remakes ship with bugs they know about, then you know that AAA titles are cutting corners for suuuure.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
It's insane that this must be explained and that people went all conspiracy theory about platforms not wanting to lose money on a big release when you have Amazing Shit™ like Life of Black Tiger or Big Rigs, neither being big famous releases from rich pubs/studios.
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,605
From years watching matt mcmuscles, Liam and woolievs, they often discover and do report these bugs, devs quite often can and do ignore them however lol

There are priorities to it to be sure, and they have to pick and choose carefully which thing to 'fix' which will inevitably break other already fixed things in the process.
 

Deleted member 2533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
As somebody who works in certification (not cyberpunk pls dont kill me) I can tell you that you would be BAFFLED at what can be permitted to slip by the publishers if you're close enough to release.

OP listed an example of something that's always a failed cert, no waivers ever (incorrectly labeling buttons), can you think of any examples of a function that a waiver was given for?
 

Danlord

Member
Oct 29, 2017
171
I know of one of the TRC requirements during the PS3 era is that games had to have a dynamic object during load screens as it would indicate to the user if the game had crashed or not as whatever object that is moving/rotating (for example)
 

Heliex

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,107
OP listed an example of something that's always a failed cert, no waivers ever (incorrectly labeling buttons), can you think of any examples of a function that a waiver was given for?
Ive seen games ship with progression blockers, and the hope is that no one encounters it while they work on a patch.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,992
This makes sense. I recall NBA Elite 11 was *hilariously* broken but still made it through certification, even though EA decided not to release it after that.
 

Heliex

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,107
Its so funny, because sometimes you see games brute force their way through Certification, but they still tick all the right boxes so you gotta give it to em.
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,136
Alberta
What about the epilepsy trigger? Wouldn't that be part of cert?
No, the easiest way to remember it is that cert only cares about the system - not the player. If something is going to mess with the OS, it's failing. If it's going to mess with players...that's not cert's concern.


Question about the bricking thing being part of the process didn't blops brick some ps5's? How did activision get it through if that's the case.

BLOPS didn't brick any consoles. They'll sometimes lock up and require a reset, but that's not 'bricking' it.
 

rokninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
302
Tempe, AZ
Haven't worked on console games, but the cert process looks similar to things I've seen in other process as well as what I've learned from friends that have.

QA always knows about and reported 99% of the bugs the publisher decided to ship with anyway.
It always, always frustrates me when I see discussions about bugs and the first thing ppl online who -- bless their hearts -- just don't know any better, blame QA for not doing their job.

I get empathy anger for the QA team lol.

A LOT of people do. I've never understood it.


That's not just games. That's common across all software dev. I would not recommend QA to anyone. It's a thankless job.

I've managed to find a couple of gigs in software QA that are "okay" (and one that was really good but RIP to that place), but yeah... it can feel so pointless and thankless sometimes, especially if you're somewhere that sees QA as more of an obstacle than part of the process. -_-

and thats a decent team too

if a dev team really don't like you then prepare for passive aggressive comments on your bugs

Oh my god, the stories I could tell lol.

The QA jobs I've liked have all had two things in common: the devs weren't assholes, and QA was treated as a part of the process, instead of a roadblock everyone wants to get over ASAP.
 

JulianV

Member
Apr 10, 2018
474
Good to see someone else survived the trenches :P

I'll tell a story though!

- QA reported on a UI overlap issue in a Need for Speed game and suggested a fix
- a dev replies back:

'I was not aware that QA became the art director all of a sudden'
Lol. When I worked as QA for EA (outsourced) we were told to just report the bugs and suggest NOTHING about the game.
 

rokninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
302
Tempe, AZ
Good to see someone else survived the trenches :P

I'll tell a story though!

- QA reported on a UI overlap issue in a Need for Speed game and suggested a fix
- a dev replies back:

'I was not aware that QA became the art director all of a sudden'

Yup lol, the "are you a designer?" reply, the classic!

Graphics / UI issues get really touchy, really fast.
 
Oct 27, 2017
920
People forget that Anthem made it through QA despite crashing so hard on PS4 that databases would sometimes need to be rebuilt.