In the present time, only independent developers seem to consider games as an art form

[Deleted member 46948]

I'm still hung up on the "authentic gaming experience" thing. It feels like the OP has something really specific in mind while discarding everything else.

Assuming there even is such a thing, you can have an "authentic gaming experience" with Minesweeper as well as Death Stranding, Outer Wilds, GTAV or anything and everything in between.

 

[hideousarmor]

There are some games from major publishers that I consider as art, but not many.
this is how I feel about all mediums tho, not just games
Could argue that drawing/painting are more often art than otherways but that's likely because the workforce required to create them is more often than not way smaller when compared to creating a game or movie. Music would come second to it. Both are mediums were artists can take more risks I'd say. Then again, they are also mediums where artists rarely have teams behind them so there's more on the line.

Destiny 2? Ghost of Tsushima? God of War? Uncharted? Assassin's Creed Odyssey?

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These are like the last games that'd come to mind when thinking of the medium as art
Especially Assassins creed. Those games seem to be more of a product of market research than a work with some kind of soul. Literal definition of product.

Im guessing you mention Ghost because of the high fidelity visuals and the nice landscape compositions we saw in the trailers. I mean those are not something unique to the medium but I can understand why some would see them as art. Would the entire game classify as art for having those few pretty moments? Or would those few moments classify as art while the game remains its own thing? What if the rest of the game is just uninspired trash? It's hard to say, art is a vague term, yes.
Feels off because its a title we've yet to play and Im not even sure if what we've seen will reflect the final product

As you said "Art is in the eyes of the beholder". I could see some specific bits from those titles can be considered as art, but as a whole I'll never see them as such. In my eyes they are more in line with marvel movies. Just some good silly entertainment.

Why is, for example, Undertale Art but Anthem not?

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Havent read that much on undertale but that game seems to the the work of a passionate person that had a unique vision for the game, one that was achieved without compromising.

On the other hand, Anthem is pure product that was shaped first by Andrew Wilson (isnt that the ceo from EA that saw the iron man flying and said - "make the whole game be about that"), a dude whose only interest in the IP was for it to make money. The entire team were constantly shifting their focus because they didnt have a clear goal. They wanted to make something beautiful, art if you will, (I think thats the focus of most developers) but they also had to answer to their higher up who were interested in a title that chased industry trends.

Despite all of this I could see some seeing the now probably desolate digital world of anthem as art. And I would totally understand. But this is more of a case of people shaping the product to their liking as opposed to the product itself being artful.(?) if that makes any sense

The truth is, AAA games are mostly compromised arts. Some of them are barely even art at all.
Most AAA games are really just products made to appeal the mainstream audience. Even if they're art, they're compromised.

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This is a good way to put it. Money needs to come first or else there wont be games in the first place.
Having said that, I still feel like there are few selected AAA games that manage to strike gold and make profit while still being artful for the most part. I consider bloodborne among those

People seems to mix nice visuals or cinematic experience with art. I tend to disagree. Interactivity is the core of the videogame experience and where its art should stand.

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Also this

 

[Voodoopeople]

Interestingly, in the UK, if you want to register as a charity as one advancing any art form, the concept of "Anything creative is art" doesn't fly.

To secure charitable status you have to demonstrate that the art on show/being created is of sufficient quality and that there is a system in place for assessing, identifying and selecting art projects, based on the track record of practitioners and those delivering said "art".

So just saying you want to create art and show it to people would not be enough in itself.

So creating games as an art in itself would not gain/allow you to retain charitable status unless you could prove sufficient quality.

 

[Blade Wolf]

Some people here are literally devaluating the very concept of art so that video games in general can be considered so.

Yeah I'm sure all games are art if art means ''something created by human''
By that logic everything we do is considered art, and now the word becomes meaningless.

Why even use the word then? It means nothing, there's no value behind it.

''Video game is art'' basically means ''Video game is a thing''

 

[Boiled Goose]

Wow this is a really interesting post. All of those games I would consider to be not pushing games forwards as an art medium, except BotW.

It's not that I'm snobby about games as art or anything, I just find the artistry in games to be about mechanics and gameplay. Like if Parasite was a video game but barely interactive, I wouldn't consider a good example of games as art. Anything involving cinematography or direction feels like its more about film than unique to games as an artform.

I don't think taking a frame from a movie and hanging it in a museum could be called digital photographic art. So it feels weird to consider a game's artistry on qualities not unique to games.

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If BOTW doesn't apply to your own criteria I don't see how your post makes any sense.

 

[Leviathan]

I'm still hung up on the "authentic gaming experience" thing. It feels like the OP has something really specific in mind while discarding everything else.

Assuming there even is such a thing, you can have an "authentic gaming experience" with Minesweeper as well as Death Stranding, Outer Wilds, GTAV or anything and everything in between.

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The specific thing is just "indie". This is pretty typical Era corporation-angst...just taken too far even for Era.

 

[J-Tier]

There are some games from major publishers that I consider as art, but not many.
this is how I feel about all mediums tho, not just games
Could argue that drawing/painting are more often art than otherways but that's likely because the workforce required to create them is more often than not way smaller when compared to creating a game or movie. Music would come second to it. Both are mediums were artists can take more risks I'd say. Then again, they are also mediums where artists rarely have teams behind them so there's more on the line.


These are like the last games that'd come to mind when thinking of the medium as art
Especially Assassins creed. Those games seem to be more of a product of market research than a work with some kind of soul. Literal definition of product.

Im guessing you mention Ghost because of the high fidelity visuals and the nice landscape compositions we saw in the trailers. I mean those are not something unique to the medium but I can understand why some would see them as art. Would the entire game classify as art for having those few pretty moments? Or would those few moments classify as art while the game remains its own thing? What if the rest of the game is just uninspired trash? It's hard to say, art is a vague term, yes.
Feels off because its a title we've yet to play and Im not even sure if what we've seen will reflect the final product

As you said "Art is in the eyes of the beholder". I could see some specific bits from those titles can be considered as art, but as a whole I'll never see them as such. In my eyes they are more in line with marvel movies. Just some good silly entertainment.


Havent read that much on undertale but that game seems to the the work of a passionate person that had a unique vision for the game, one that was achieved without compromising.

On the other hand, Anthem is pure product that was shaped first by Andrew Wilson (isnt that the ceo from EA that saw the iron man flying and said - "make the whole game be about that"), a dude whose only interest in the IP was for it to make money. The entire team were constantly shifting their focus because they didnt have a clear goal. They wanted to make something beautiful, art if you will, (I think thats the focus of most developers) but they also had to answer to their higher up who were interested in a title that chased industry trends.

Despite all of this I could see some seeing the now probably desolate digital world of anthem as art. And I would totally understand. But this is more of a case of people shaping the product to their liking as opposed to the product itself being artful.(?) if that makes any sense


This is a good way to put it. Money needs to come first or else there wont be games in the first place.
Having said that, I still feel like there are few selected AAA games that manage to strike gold and make profit while still being artful for the most part. I consider bloodborne among those

Also this

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People are being too narrow with the definition of art. Just because you're apathetic towards it's value does not make it "not art". Even a cynical reproduction is art because of all of the discussions that can be derived from it. I look at Call of Duty and see something incredibly boring. It's still art because it's a human creation that'll elicit a response from any viewer/participant. The fact that I think it's boring already gives it meaning.

Sure you can categorize art into different sections, but it's already a wide umbrella, it doesn't make sense to exclude other media that follows the same rules as the cynically designed paintings, statues, etc that were made since the dawn of man.

 

[Deleted member 16657]

Yes, every creative human expression is art. That's just how it is.

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Well, you just made that art. You gave meaning to something that didn't exist. The current socioeconomic state that you're in that caused you to post that post must now be taken into consideration when we look at your work of art. The emotions that others derive from reading that post, whether it's anger at your apathy towards art or humor needs to be taken into consideration as well. We can look back 100 years from now at that post and say "Wow! Mankind sure was different from today. The things that they value are completely different from what we value today."

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I think it's a legitimate opinion but also a meaningless one. If every creative expression is art then art is just a synonym for doing literally anything. Which makes it difficult to actually talk about art in any distinguishing manner.

Basically you could subscribe to this definition of art but it's also the least interesting one conducive to the most banal discussion.

 

[Deleted member 16657]

If BOTW doesn't apply to your own criteria I don't see how your post makes any sense.

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What do you mean? It does apply. The "triangle of discovery" is a masterstroke of game design.

 

[Donizetty]

For me, every game is art... some ones are bad art but art anyway.

 

[collige]

Some people here are literally devaluating the very concept of art so that video games in general can be considered so.

Yeah I'm sure all games are art if art means ''something created by human''
By that logic everything we do is considered art, and now the word becomes meaningless.

Why even use the word then? It means nothing, there's no value behind it.

''Video game is art'' basically means ''Video game is a thing''

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It's art because people say it is. This devaluing you're concerned about is a discussion that's been taking place for over a hundred years.

Very important art:

 

[NoalleGospell]

I don't care what's art or not, I just want to be entertained by my media. Asking if what I'm playing is "art" seems meaningless to me since it doesn't add to my enjoyment.

 

[J-Tier]

I think it's a legitimate opinion but also a meaningless one. If every creative expression is art then art is just a synonym for doing literally anything. Which makes it difficult to actually talk about art in any distinguishing manner.

Basically you could subscribe to this definition of art but it's also the least interesting one conducive to the most banal discussion.

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We literally give everything meaning, in a world that is lacking of it. You can look at clouds and see figures. A tree bark and see a face. We created numbers and words and all kinds of things that don't exist. We are meaning-making machines. That's our one thing that makes us special. The value of art is not in the piece of art, but the discussion around it and the feelings/or lack of feelings it elicits to us. So having some gatekeeper that stands there and says, "this is not art", is really dumb.

 

[Puffy]

You need to reread the post I'm quoting. The poster mentions that Sony makes a bunch of cinematic games as if that is indicative of a game being "Art". All I'm saying is that nice graphics and copying movies is not what I consider to be groundbreaking game design. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy those games or find them fun. I bought a PS4 just to play them and enjoyed them fwiw

sorry that our opinions are not the same and mine is automatically wrong for not being the same as yours

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There's no such thing as a wrong opinion. Your "Game cinematography isn't art, only game mechanic's is art" opinion is a shit opinion but you're entitled to it.

By your line of reasoning, cinematography in movies isn't art either. Just a parting shot, I really don't know why your post was championed enough to where I had to respond seriously to it XD

 

[Blade Wolf]

It's art because people say it is. This devaluing you're concerned about is a discussion that's been taking place for over a hundred years.

Very important art:

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It was meant to poke fun of the idea that anything can be considered art and people unironically view that very expression as art. That's why it's ''important''.

 

[Deleted member 16657]

We literally give everything meaning, in a world that is lacking of it. You can look at clouds and see figures. A tree bark and see a face. We created numbers and words and all kinds of things that don't exist. We are meaning-making machines. That's our one thing that makes us special. The value of art is not in the piece of art, but the discussion around it and the feelings/or lack of feelings it elicits to us. So having some gatekeeper that stands there and says, "this is not art", is really dumb.

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You can have an emotional connection to anything but I don't think that automatically constitutes art, at least on a cultural level that involves critique and discussion.

 

[Sub Boss]

I think videogames are one of the most artistic mediums honestly, developers are constantly encouraged to estimulate our senses with music pieces that create a mood,different art styles for different genres, beautiful looking concept art and top notch animation.

 

[ByWatterson]

The Last of Us exists. Metal Gear exists. Bloodborne and Bioshock and The Witcher 3 and Shadow of the Colossus and God of War and Red Dead Redemption II and Breath of the Wild exist.

This is a very bad OP.

 

[J-Tier]

You can have an emotional connection to anything but I don't think that automatically constitutes art, at least on a cultural level that involves critique and discussion.

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Well, obviously it has to be a human creation. Outside of that, who determines what has value on a "cultural level" worthy of critique and discussion?

 

[collige]

It was meant to poke fun of the idea that anything can be considered art and people unironically view that very expression as art. That's why it's ''important''.

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Wouldn't you consider someone expressing that idea via a sculpture to be an artistic statement itself?

 

[Deleted member 16657]

Well, obviously it has to be a human creation. Outside of that, who determines what has value on a "cultural level" worthy of critique and discussion?

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I think we do as a collective. That's kind of what happening in this thread. We debate what is and isn't art and why. (Though there is an interesting discussion to be had about the commoditization of art and the subsequent impact on art consumption culture though that might be a long tangent)

 

[Blade Wolf]

Wouldn't you consider someone expressing that idea via a sculpture to be an artistic statement itself?

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I would, but only because I personally view it as a meaningful expression with a thought provoking message behind it.
Like I said, I don't agree with the notion of ''everything created by human is art'' because I don't think every expression is all that meaningful and thought provoking.

Art is subjective. To me, not every game is art, and even if they're, they are often compromised.

 

[CrazyDude]

I never understood people's obsession with labeling things art. It feels like people do it to feel like they are sophisticated and feel better about themselves. The whole thing comes off pretentious. What does it matter if something is labeled art or not? All that should matter is that you are enjoying it whether it's a painting or a video game.

 

[J-Tier]

I think we do as a collective. That's kind of what happening in this thread. We debate what is and isn't art and why. (Though there is an interesting discussion to be had about the commoditization of art and the subsequent impact on art consumption culture though that might be a long tangent)

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The why something isn't art is always more heavily skewed towards snobbery, versus the why something is art. The fact that there's a discussion and eliciting so much emotion and meaning that it's dumb to say that the subject isn't art.

I would, but only because I personally view it as a meaningful expression with a thought provoking message behind it.
Like I said, I don't agree with the notion of ''everything created by human is art'' because I don't think every expression is all that meaningful and thought provoking.

Art is subjective. To me, not every game is art, and even if they're, they are often compromised.

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But it is meaningful to someone on some level. The fact that art is subjective means that we all determine what art is. Which is pretty.much...everything made by man.

 

[Arion]

Indie games tend to get way too much credit. Most of them are some variation of walking simulators and pixel platformers. The handful of truly unique indies games compared to the derivative ones are proportionally the same as unique AAA games compared to derivative ones.

 

[Escaflow]

OP you clearly don't play alot of games. How are AAA games like Sekiro, Bloodborne, Witcher 3, Horizon Zero Dawn or Nier Automata not art? From the character, world and creature design to the amazing soundtracks, they are all some form of arts. It's very naive and ignorant to discredit them and only say indie value arts.

 

[Boiled Goose]

What do you mean? It does apply. The "triangle of discovery" is a masterstroke of game design.

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Oh ok. Thought you were arguing the opposite

 

[J-Tier]

The why something isn't art is always more heavily skewed towards snobbery, versus the why something is art. The fact that there's a discussion and eliciting so much emotion and meaning that it's dumb to say that the subject isn't art.
But it is meaningful to someone on some level. The fact that art is subjective means that we all determine what art is. Which is pretty.much...everything made by man.

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Sorry, I had to roll to work, so I accidentally posted an incomplete and unedited train of thought here. I'd like to elaborate further and clean up my points, but I really have to get to work. I apologize!

 

[behOemoth]

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Well, I know what people want to say when they don't want to declare things as no art.
However going back to OP's post that AAA of modern games are no art contradicts what people see in art made by Beethoven, DaVinci, Friedrich and others. Filth rich people paid them to do the art.

For instance, the famous Ophelia painting by Millais was made over the course of two years. He also had to use a hut in the woods because it was too windy and it rained a lot.

 

[Crayon]

Had Zelda this generation, and now death stranding. These are Big Money commercial projects, but arguably some of the greatest achievements of video games as art.

 

[The Albatross]

I disagree, anything can be artistic, and major developers/publishers still pursue "games as art." I have a hard time calling the story and narrative in RDR2 not artistic, while saying, like, Untitled Goose Game is artistic. And that's not shitting on the artistic integrity of Untitled Goose Game, either.

 

[Popcicle]

The people who come up with the idea for a game want to create Art
The people who pitch the idea to publishers want to make Art
The people who work at the publisher want to work on Art and promote Art
The people who make the game want to make Art
The people who support the game want to support Art

They all also want to be paid for a living to work with this Art

Sometimes a project looks like it won't make enough money to let people be paid, while something else looks more likely to do that.

There's uncertainty in everything at some point or another whether or not it will be finished, make the money spent on it back (all games are investments in time and most often money in advance), and sometimes this results in decisions people attribute to being greed based or counter to the artistic vision.

Even tons of "indie" games often cost millions of dollars to make and to put in that investment without even a plan of how to make it back would be so irresponsible to everyone involved.

You don't have to like every game design decision, no one asks you to, and you should sincerely speak your mind on that—but even your modified OP is naive and insulting to the point of personal frustration.

Everyone in this industry works so hard and I've never met this soulless creator everyone props up when a game comes out they don't like.

 

[Herey]

Gotta say that I really dislike how people present the indie market as some sort of creative cornucopia in contrast to the AAA market, considering the trend chasing that occurs at every level of the industry. How many standout indie games are metroidvanias, 2D pixel-art platformers, or very clearly ape game design fashioned in the 16 bit days? What about the tons of games that evoke Amnesia? Or Journey and Gone Home?

I know it's an incredibly reductionist argument when many of those titles can stand on their own, but the same applies to many AAA games that are considered 'safe', who themselves are normally more than their inspirations.

It comes across as needlessly snobbish even if I agree with the general sentiment that the indie market allows greater freedom. So don't pls.

 

[Haze]

Death Stranding is only a couple of months old.

But I kind of agree. A lot of western AAA development comes off as treating video games like toys.

 

[roguesquirrel]

Well, I know what people want to say when they don't want to declare things as no art.
However going back to OP's post that AAA of modern games are no art contradicts what people see in art made by Beethoven, DaVinci, Friedrich and others. Filth rich people paid them to do the art.

For instance, the famous Ophelia painting by Millais was made over the course of two years. He also had to use a hut in the woods because it was too windy and it rained a lot.

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Yeah thats the thing with a lot of the arguments in this thread. Saw someone argue Anthem cant be art because the developers had to answer to EA's CEO, but does that not similarly describe any of the art that adorns the Sistine Chapel and was comissioned by Pope Julius II?

I dont want to come off as prententious but the OP framed this discussion around games as an artform, and if you take arguments from this thread and apply them to art as a whole & not video games we're currently mad at, we're suddenly two steps away from "The Creation of Adam isnt art because its corporate, soulless and born from compromise between the artist and the patron".

 

[Deleted member 18407]

All games are art but the second anyone tries to use art critique on them, they become just games again and we shouldn't think too hard about them. It's very strange that people want to have it both ways.

 

[ShinUltramanJ]

Indie games tend to get way too much credit. Most of them are some variation of walking simulators and pixel platformers. The handful of truly unique indies games compared to the derivative ones are proportionally the same as unique AAA games compared to derivative ones.

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Yep. I'd also argue that a lot of the popular indie games are merely treading the same ground as the AAA games of past eras.

Truly unique and original ideas are very few and far between.

 

[Deleted member 18407]

It's art because people say it is. This devaluing you're concerned about is a discussion that's been taking place for over a hundred years.

Very important art:

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There's a clear intentionality behind dadaist art that I wouldn't have any problem saying is missing from something like WWE 2K20 though.

 

[Nameless]

Indie games tend to get way too much credit. Most of them are some variation of walking simulators and pixel platformers. The handful of truly unique indies games compared to the derivative ones are proportionally the same as unique AAA games compared to derivative ones.

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Agreed. I'm still waiting for someone to actually explain what gives Celeste & Hollow Knight more artistic merit than Witcher 3 & RDR2, for example?

 

[Deleted member 21411]

NiER automata is art tho

 

[Thronazuug]

I consider it as art. It's not just traditional one since with every new medium's appearance it is understandable people can refuse it. IIRC cinema wasn't considered as art from the beginning by the many.

But that aside more importantly, I was wondering OP, how old are you and whose those young children you play SNES with? Since you prefer to call them younger children instead of "my kids, nephews/nieces, students" I wonder what kind of occurence you are having? Just curious.

 

[ContraWars]

Death Stranding is only a couple of months old.

But I kind of agree. A lot of western AAA development comes off as treating video games like toys.

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Video games ARE toys.

 

[Haze]

Video games ARE toys.

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This is what I'm talking about. It's the audience's fault to an extent too. If video games are just toys, then they are disposable pieces of entertainment and can't be art. There are video games that refute this and push the medium away from that disposability but they are not the majority.

 

[Swift_Gamer]

I would, but only because I personally view it as a meaningful expression with a thought provoking message behind it.
Like I said, I don't agree with the notion of ''everything created by human is art'' because I don't think every expression is all that meaningful and thought provoking.

Art is subjective. To me, not every game is art, and even if they're, they are often compromised.

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Not all art has to be "meaningful and thought provoking".

 

[Swift_Gamer]

Video games ARE toys.

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And toys can be/are art too.

 

[ContraWars]

This is what I'm talking about. It's the audience's fault to an extent too. If video games are just toys, then they are disposable pieces of entertainment and can't be art.

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Toys can be considered art.

Entertainment can be art.

The fault here is your pretentious assumption.

Arguing that video games are somehow not toys is a laughable rabbit hole, and it's almost like you're going there.

 

[Haze]

Toys can be considered art.

Entertainment can be art.

The fault here is your pretentious assumption.

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If it's just entertainment then it isn't art. Conversely, art can be entertaining. Calling videogames toys is kind of disrespectful and reductionist.

 

[Servbot24]

Eh. I think that any game can be art, but not that every game is default by virtue of its existence art. If every game is art then art loses its meaning. For something to be "art" it needs to be juxtaposed with "not art" so that art can be appreciated. The net result of "everything is art" philosophy is a dilution of the value and purpose of art.

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Art is not special. It's just something you make to be creative. Art does not equal good in any way whatsoever. Most art is shit. I'm not sure where people got the idea that something has to be good for it to be art.

 

[Haze]

Art is not special. It's just something you make to be creative. Art does not equal good in any way whatsoever. Most art is shit. I'm not sure where people got the idea that something has to be good for it to be art.

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Plenty of art is shit, depending on the perception of the audience. I think Nier: Automata is a shit game but I at least respect it for trying to do something beyond entertain the player.

 

[Servbot24]

Plenty of art is shit, depending on the perception of the audience. I think Nier: Automata is a shit game but I at least respect it for trying to do something beyond entertain the player.

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Even if it all it did was entertain people it would still be art. Unless you happened to make a game that is somehow completely devoid of creative efforts, which is practically impossible.