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Nowadays, Independent developers respect games as an art form more than the major publishers

  • I agree.

    Votes: 53 8.1%
  • There are some games from major publishers that I consider as art, but not many.

    Votes: 200 30.5%
  • I disagree.

    Votes: 402 61.4%

  • Total voters
    655
Mar 31, 2018
616
Note: I have adjusted my opening post for clarification. I was of the opinion that I communicated my opinion in a completely wrong way to the target group. Now it should be clearer what I am referring to.

I will briefly try to express what I mean.
- All games can somehow be called art, both technical/graphic/writing or in depth. There are more indiegames (not all) that respect games as an art form more than games from big publishers. Here I mainly mean depth and the authentic gaming experience.
- A large part of the large publishers increasingly lose the urge to create unique experiences. They prefer to go after successful games. Indiegames are in most cases more willing to innovate.
- An indie game is usually more personal, more authentic and much closer to the designer. This personally ensures that indiegames have more charm and "soul". I find less charm in games from large publishers that focus on photorealistic graphics (although technically/graphically fantastic), also because it relies more on resources such as pre-existing textures, motion capture etc.
- I miss the pre-HD days when there was less distinction between indie and big publishers. Back then both parties were more willing to innovate. Now big publishers play it very safe, with very large budgets and marketing campaigns. Indies can't compete with them in the current time.
- I think it's an unfortunate trend that games are betting more and more on GAAS, micro-transactions, lootboxes and similar ways to ensure a longer playing time. It may have advantages, but in my opinion, this is not part of an authentic gaming experience.
- Unbounded hypercapitalism strives more for mainstream and gives the products less breathing space for a more limited target group. However, I hope the latter will continue to exist.
- To clarify: I don't want to put all the games of major publishers and independent developers in a certain category. Of both types there are games that are more authentic and focused on artistic experiences both and also games that focus less on it. Moreover, I respect the subjective meaning behind these two words. It was absolutely not my intention to generalize.
- The above is my personal opinion, be free to disagree with it.


Forgive me for the bad opening post of the past. Normally I don't make the mistake to pass on the wrong message: here you will find a topic of which it was clear what I wanted to achieve. If you're interested in seeing my old opening post, open the spoiler.

I've played older games with younger children from the 16-bit period. First we played Sonic and Street Fighter II on a Sega Mega Drive. My fellow player didn't understand it at all and didn't like it. After that, we played Streets of Rage II together and he had more fun because he often "accidentally" attacked me. However, he missed his Playstation 4, which he found "much more fun". Another day I played on my SNES with another younger child. We played Super Soccer and in the end he enjoyed it too. He did complain about the "ugly graphics" and said he liked FIFA much better. The other SNES games were less of a success with him.

I didn't grow up in the NES/SNES/Master system generation and was too young to really experience the Playstation 1/Nintendo 64/Genesis/Saturn generation. I grew up with Game Boy (Advance) and Playstation 2 games. However, as time went on, I became more and more fond of older games, perhaps because of my previous hobby as a video game programmer. I miss the charm and diversity that games used to have and consider a very large proportion of today's games to be "soulless" and "monotonous".

I find it very unfortunate that today's children may never appreciate the classic games. They are used to micro transactions, lootboxes, very expensive skins, GAAS and boring photorealistic graphics. AAA games are increasingly difficult to distinguish from each other, don't want to innovate and are chasing trends and other games. One of the few games that, in my opinion, still have the soul and charm are those of independent developers.

Thank God they exist! The independent developers are now the only ones who understand that games should be an art form. Inside, Journey, Gris, Undertale and so much more... I really respect the indie developer who has to survive with few resources and compete against giants who get the biggest successes with huge budgets and marketing campaigns. There are also games with a larger budget that pursue artistry, such as Death Stranding, but unfortunately these are very scarce.

Until the HD generation came along, there was hardly any distinction between large publishers and independent developers among consumers. They could compete with each other and both experimented with unique games. But since the major publishers needed ever larger budgets and were striving for ever better graphics, the independent developers had to take a subordinate position. The big publishers played it safe and refused to really experiment. Their games are often only really innovative in terms of technical and graphic performance. Their range of games is becoming increasingly homogeneous and similar, both in terms of gameplay and art style, which was not the case in the past. Money comes first at the big studios.

I think it's a real shame that most self-proclaimed "gamers" mainly play the, in their words, only "AAA games" and call indie games "overrated". Yes, I used to pay too little attention to indie games in the past, because the games of the big studios get all the attention. However, I'm beginning to lose interest in the medium because of the lack of unique experiences. Indie-games can make me love gaming in general again.

With unchecked hypercapitalism, there's no room for art in general.

Change my mind: Find a recent game from a major publisher that you consider to be art. There is also room for discussion.


This is my personal opinion, be free to have another opinion.
 
Last edited:

Wolf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,840
You've got to be fucking with us. Destiny 2? Ghost of Tsushima? God of War? Uncharted? Assassin's Creed Odyssey? Red Dead Redemption II? Breath of the Wild? Hell, Sony's studios are pretty much known for cranking out "cinematic" games these days.

Art is in the eyes of the beholder. You speak your opinion as if it's fact, when there is a plethora of evidence to point towards the opposite. There are plenty of AAA games that could be seen as art. Your standards just prevent you from seeing it, I guess.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
You realize that "art" is a super vague term that can apply to everything and nothing, depending you how see it?
Why is, for example, Undertale Art but Anthem not?
 

Deleted member 49535

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2018
2,825
I don't understand why a realistic game is apparently not art. To me, The Last of Us 2 and Ghost of Tsushima are art.
 

N.Domixis

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,208
Gamer parents should start their kids with nes so they can experience something most will never get to experience.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Is your definition of art just any game that doesn't seem like a cash grab?

Technically all games are art regardless of quality.

You talk about indie developers in the past, but there weren't really a ton. It was mostly established AA devs who had deals with publishers. True Indies are much more recent.


I do agree that most AAA games are trying to chase trends and milk people except for maybe certain console exclusives.

Part of why I love where VR games are right now is because it reminds me of the 6th systems where devs had an idea of how to make 3D games but everyone was still trying to figure out what works best. Feels very experimental.
 

dark_prinny

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,374
Not everything has to be art. Video games are just a form of entertainment.
 

roguesquirrel

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
5,483
AAA games are increasingly difficult to distinguish from each other, don't want to innovate and are chasing trends and other games.
This seems to be the thesis statement, and yet none of it is something that precludes a work from being art.
If a painting was chasing a trend and didnt innovate, is it no longer art?

By this definition a large chunk of the renaissance period is suddenly no longer art.
 

laziboi

Alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2019
1,918
Your Anus
Games are both art, and product. The two aren't mutually exclusive, yes, there's plenty of games that can be works of art. But they also exist as commercial products being sold to consumers. It's not just gaming, Movies, TV, Music, Books. All these mediums are both art AND consumer products. Nothing is wrong with that, and it annoys me that people seem to take offense to the fact that people call games and gamers products and consumers, when that's what they are essentially.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,270
You prefer smaller games and therefore only they can be art. AAA games all look the same.

Why does anyone make arguments like this?
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
You prefer smaller games and therefore only they can be art. AAA games all look the same.

Why does anyone make arguments like this.

It's also kind of ironic because these days there are dozens of retro inspired games coming out on Steam every month to the point where some use "pixel platformer" as an insult.
 
Nov 2, 2017
481
Art is super subjective and it would be hard to determine what type of game design is actually considered more art than the other. I feel like you're confusing game decisions you don't like versus game design you do like and considering the former a bad form of art.
 

Deleted member 44122

Guest
have you watched any of the ghost of tsushima trailers? that game is ART
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,270
It's also kind of ironic because these days there are dozens of retro inspired games coming out on Steam every month to the point where some use "pixel platformer" as an insult.

It's a ridiculous attitude to have. Some folk really can't just like what they like without something else needing to be worse to validate it.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,470
Percentage wise, I wouldn't be surprised if a single Death Stranding, Nier, The Last pf Us, etc out of every AAA is still a wider representation than every Undertale, The Witness, Inside out of every indie game. The thing is that we get like 100 AAA games every year and like 5000 indie games.
 

Deleted member 32135

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 9, 2017
1,555

Deleted member 59109

User requested account closure
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Aug 8, 2019
7,877
I think there are plenty of modern AAA games which are pretty artistic. Mainly on the Nintendo side but still.
 

arcadepc

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
1,925
There are the multi-million € Hollywood actors you could not reach in your lifetime. Then you have local or amateur actors and non-actors, staging a local play usually for free or very cheaply with as much heart and passion where you can talk to and meet any time. Though it is unlikely you even know of their performance unless you love that art.
This is an equivalent of an indie game to me.
Both are needed of course
 
OP
OP
OrdinaryUsername
Mar 31, 2018
616
Apparently, I'm going to end up in a heated discussion.

For me, art is a work that has depth in content and is innovative for one reason or another. Ugh, I can't really put it into words.

I don't consider some of the games of major publishers to be art. But that doesn't mean that I don't think games like Red Dead Redemption 2 and Assassins Creed X are good games. I think it's amazing that so much content and a large scale world have been incorporated into these games. I don't see this as art, but as a technical achievement of which the developers can certainly be proud. Do not get me wrong.

I know that art is a personal concept for everyone and I respect it.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
It's funny those are you're art examples. See, the problem with all the "games need to be art"-posts is that they always argue for games with "artsy" graphics. Not games that push the boundaries of what games can be from a game mechanics viewpoint.

Eh, Undertale got pretty meta with some of its mechanics. It's not a massive focus but it's an important part of the game.

Gris I think perfectly makes your point. Probably the only innovative thing about Gris from a player perspective is the art. Outside of that it's a basic puzzle platformer with and okay story.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,041
Ah yes, tell us about how the good ole days were, the ones you didn't even experience.

Diversity and experimentation has only grown, even in the AAA market compared to anything in the past.
 

Potterson

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,408
Well, it's true that AAA games are rarely innovative, rarely propose some interesting concepts and experiments with narration and story etc, but they still may be considered art I guess - if we say games are art.

Like, super-realistic portrait made by artist who got paid lots of cash by some aristocrat is art just like surrealistic and abstract paintings are art.
 
OP
OP
OrdinaryUsername
Mar 31, 2018
616
Oh, I admit I've never played The Last of Us or NIER: Automata. I have to do that sometime. Ghost of Tsushima seems very interesting to me, but I'm waiting for the end result.
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
Many people confuse "art" with "fringe". Massively popular mainstream works are also art, even if you subjectively value fringe works more.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,590
Breath of the Wild is beautiful.

Also yes corporations don't care about art. The individuals working within those corporations do and manage to produce art regardless.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
AAA games are increasingly difficult to distinguish from each other, don't want to innovate and are chasing trends and other games.

You can say the same thing about indie games these days.
We just had a thread the other day showing a shit ton of Metrovanias.
Here comes another online multiplayer survival game.
Here comes another Dark Souls inspired 2D game.
It's easy to cherry pick a few indie gems out, but zoom the camera back and you'll see literally hundreds of indie games that are doing the same exact thing as everyone else.

As for realistic graphics - I love them. Real life is beautiful. Nature is beautiful. Puddles of water on asphalt is beautiful. I vastly prefer it to the samey looking "retro" graphics of a lot of titles.
 

Lkr

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,487
You've got to be fucking with us. Destiny 2? Ghost of Tsushima? God of War? Uncharted? Assassin's Creed Odyssey? Red Dead Redemption II? Breath of the Wild? Hell, Sony's studios are pretty much known for cranking out "cinematic" games these days.

Art is in the eyes of the beholder. You speak your opinion as if it's fact, when there is a plethora of evidence to point towards the opposite. There are plenty of AAA games that could be seen as art. Your standards just prevent you from seeing it, I guess.
"Cinematic" games are part of the problem IMO, and are hardly indicative of "artsy" games. This isn't saying they're not good games, but camera over the shoulder and some cutscenes is no what I want for "artistic" value, I want some new and creative gameplay mechanics
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
You've got to be fucking with us. Destiny 2? Ghost of Tsushima? God of War? Uncharted? Assassin's Creed Odyssey? Red Dead Redemption II? Breath of the Wild? Hell, Sony's studios are pretty much known for cranking out "cinematic" games these days.

Art is in the eyes of the beholder. You speak your opinion as if it's fact, when there is a plethora of evidence to point towards the opposite. There are plenty of AAA games that could be seen as art. Your standards just prevent you from seeing it, I guess.
If you think Sony is giving the big studios $150 mil+ budgets to create art without heavy, heavy, consideration about the commercial viability of the games beforehand then you're wrong. And frankly, it would be irresponsible not to consider that aspect of the games. Hundreds of jobs are on the line at each AAA studio if a game underperforms.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,470
Under what AAA definition are we operating here by the way? Because just by size of publishers, I don't think you'll ever have ERA agreeing with you on the idea that Gris is art, but Tetris Effect isn't.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
You've got to be fucking with us. Destiny 2? Ghost of Tsushima? God of War? Uncharted? Assassin's Creed Odyssey? Red Dead Redemption II? Breath of the Wild? Hell, Sony's studios are pretty much known for cranking out "cinematic" games these days.

Art is in the eyes of the beholder. You speak your opinion as if it's fact, when there is a plethora of evidence to point towards the opposite. There are plenty of AAA games that could be seen as art. Your standards just prevent you from seeing it, I guess.
I think it's very telling you equate "cinematic" with "art"
 

Wolf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,840
"Cinematic" games are part of the problem IMO, and are hardly indicative of "artsy" games. This isn't saying they're not good games, but camera over the shoulder and some cutscenes is no what I want for "artistic" value, I want some new and creative gameplay mechanics

I think that's totally fair, and I tend to agree with you, but I still admire the polish that a lot of them have. Really hoping Ghost of Tsushima takes it to another level.

If you think Sony is giving the big studios $150 mil+ budgets to create art without heavy, heavy, consideration about the commercial viability of the games beforehand then you're wrong.

??????????????

I never suggested otherwise? No shit they're looking at commercial viability lol

I think it's very telling you equate "cinematic" with "art"

I equate a lot of things with art. Cinematic was just an example I gave because of Sony seeming to focus on it a lot in their recent titles. Cinematic presentation can certainly be something that pushes a game to be considered art to me if it's done well, but so can art style, game design, audio, etc.
 

teruterubozu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,822
People make this argument with every single medium under the sun whether it's music, movies, TV, books, artwork, clothing, etc.
That OLD=BETTER and MAINSTREAM=SHITTY. The argument never goes anywhere.
 
OP
OP
OrdinaryUsername
Mar 31, 2018
616
Ah yes, tell us about how the good ole days were, the ones you didn't even experience.
I've played a lot of the older games, but years after their release.

Also yes corporations don't care about art. The individuals working within those corporations do and manage to produce art regardless.
Moreover, I'm convinced that the individuals respect art, but because of those money grabbing mega-companies, they don't get the chance to express their vision to the fullest.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,041
I've played a lot of the older games, but years after their release.

Right, the good ones that stood the test of time? How bout the tons of cash ins that were also released at the time? It's easy to go back and cherry pick the good, just like you could 10 years from now in our current gen.
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
??????????????

I never suggested otherwise? No shit they're looking at commercial viability lol
What I'm saying is that big publishers view AAA games as commercial products first and foremost. If the games have artistic merit, that's nice. But making something that sells to a mass audience is always going to be the top priority. The primary goal is never going to be art.