In light of "When the looting starts, The shooting starts" and the 100,000 US Covid Deaths, what's the thinking on Biden is just as bad as Trump?

[Benzychenz]

Disliking both candidates is fine.

Realising one candidate is far and away better than the other, even if you don't like them, and then not voting is frankly, ridiculous.

You should want the best outcome, even if it's just a 'less bad' outcome. Trump losing is not a foregone conclusion, people thought he had no chance against Hilary and here we are.

I'm glad voting is non compulsory in my country. These arguments are utterly ridiculous.

 

[Seraph84]

You may have answered this already but how exactly would you have handled the sort of obstructionist stuff Obama was dealing with in terms of progressive issues?

Click to shrink...

I get the distinct impression you and I have very different views on Obama and his goals as president. Provide an example or two of the obstructions you're talking about and I'll address them when I wake up in the morning. It's nearly 1am here and I'm catching wife agro.

 

[Deleted member 56306]

I get the distinct impression you and I have very different views on Obama and his goals as president. Provide an example or two of the obstructions you're talking about and I'll address them when I wake up in the morning. It's nearly 1am here and I'm catching wife agro.

Click to shrink...

Mitch Mcconnell...

 

[lush]

Lmfao, fitting end to a troll sesh. The Obama admin had to deal with obstruction?

 

[Seraph84]

Mitch Mcconnell...

Click to shrink...

The way I'd handle him as president would be.. how can I put this... removal from office by any means necessary. I would probably not last long as a president.

 

[El Bombastico]

The way I'd handle him as president would be.. how can I put this... removal from office by any means necessary. I would probably not last long as a president.

Click to shrink...

So you're admitting you have no idea how government works?

 

[igordennis]

So you're admitting you have no idea how government works?

Click to shrink...

They basically admitted as much earlier with this unintentionally hilarious comment:

The lower the voter turnout, the better imho. Eventually we'll reach a point where people will point to that and say, "wtf, only 10% of the population votes for president? And oh shit, it's the richest 10%? We need to do something about this!"

Click to shrink...

The thinking that voter turnout going down to 10% and it being only the richest 10% would be a good thing and lead to revolution and that the people in power would not be absolutely ecstatic about such a wonderful statistic for them is hysterical in its ignorance.

That's not how it works, that's not how any of it works. I wonder if Seraph84 knows there are other countries other than the United States in the world, with successful democracies that works for its citzens? It doesn't seem like they do.

 

[XMonkey]

So your argument is that Biden LIED when he suggested that he'd veto M4A, but I should support him because he's trustworthy to advance a progressive agenda as president? Despite the fact that under Obama (with Biden as VP), latinx children were put in concentration camps, wealth inequality continued to worsen, and we never got healthcare for all Americans or any of the other progressive rhetoric Obama's campaign marketed?

Click to shrink...

I never said you should support or vote for Biden. I just said you should vote. So if you're gonna keep putting words in my mouth or ignore other points I've made while tossing in a bunch of other random things then you can find someone else to play your game with.

Biden's big issue in your linked article was with the cost, not the very idea of universal healthcare itself. If we play make believe and imagine a single-payer system passes Congress, the cost issue is going to be taken care of because it has to in order to get through moderates in the party who have the very same concerns. If you tried to gotcha Biden on that statement then all he's gotta say is "well, we've figured out how to pay for it and so let's get it done" and that's it.

Have a good night.

 

[discotheque]

The way I'd handle him as president would be.. how can I put this... removal from office by any means necessary. I would probably not last long as a president.

Click to shrink...

I'm cringing.

 

[KtotheRoc]

The way I'd handle him as president would be.. how can I put this... removal from office by any means necessary. I would probably not last long as a president.

Click to shrink...

We really should stop feeding the trolls.

 

[jack_package_200]

Did someone in here actually advocate for having opposition leaders killed?

I know he was a troll but jesus christ.

 

[Neo C.]

Innuendo Studios did a very good video to this just a month ago. Basically he argues that this thinking stems from the American Christian culture that is still dominant today. And no, it doesn't matter whether you are religious or atheist.

I would recommend to watch the whole thing, because it makes more sense this way. But if you just want that bit which is relevant for this thread, you can jump to the 10:07 min mark.

 

[McScroggz]

The way I'd handle him as president would be.. how can I put this... removal from office by any means necessary. I would probably not last long as a president.

Click to shrink...

How old are you? Genuinely curious.

 

[TheRuralJuror]

We really should stop feeding the trolls.

Click to shrink...

Preach.

 

[BreakAtmo]

I'm not American, so there's nothing I can really do, but seriously - everyone needs to vote, and vote Democrat. Vote democrat in the major elections, vote for the most left Democrat in primaries, etc. No, someone like Biden isn't great, but nobody is suggesting that he's the endgame. The first step is to keep voting for the democrats, overwhelmingly so, until the Republicans are crushed into unelectability, and the only way to do that is to get democrats in power, with majorities that would allow them to institute policies like deplatforming Fox News, removing the Electoral College, killing gerrymandering, instituting preferential voting, etc. - basically, removing all the methods Republicans use to cheat their way into power. Centrists like Biden might not go for that (although who knows what they might do if they had a huge coalition of at least centre-left voters and didn't feel the need to try and compromise with conservatives), but people like AOC and her ilk would, so get them into the party via local primaries.

The fact is that someone from one of the two parties will always win. Not voting is not a valid choice, because no election will end with no winner. They are never just as bad as each other - not this time, and not any time.

 

[Seraph84]

The fact is that someone from one of the two parties will always win. Not voting is not a valid choice, because no election will end with no winner. They are never just as bad as each other - not this time, and not any time.

Click to shrink...

"Given the legitimacy of reasons why they don't participate, nonvoters certainly shouldn't be scolded with, "If you don't vote, you can't complain." Or with even harsher words, as one friend on Facebook put it: "If you don't vote, everything wrong in the world is your fault."

People long to be heard and deserve fair representation. Instead of bashing nonvoters, I recommend taking some deep breaths and initiating friendly conversations. Listen and learn. At a time when public trust in government is at historic lows, such conversations might even encourage someone to demand a voice."

I asked people why they don’t vote, and this is what they told me

In the 2016 election, more than a third of Americans didn’t vote. What might be keeping them from going to the polls?

theconversation.com

 

[Seraph84]

Did someone in here actually advocate for having opposition leaders killed?

I know he was a troll but jesus christ.

Click to shrink...

Not what I said but since you brought it up, and since he is drenched in blood money (he profits enormously from health insurance donations), I'm comfortable saying that if he were never born Earth and America would be better for it.

"Many more Americans die because of a lack of health insurance than previously thought, concludes a new state by state study by Families USA, a non-profit organisation that advocates health care for all Americans.

More than 26,260 Americans aged 25 to 64 died in 2006 because they lacked health insurance—more than twice as many as were murdered, Families USA said. In the seven years from 2000 to 2006 an estimated 162,700 Americans died because of lack of health insurance."

More than 26 000 Americans die each year because of lack of health insurance

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[BreakAtmo]

"Given the legitimacy of reasons why they don't participate, nonvoters certainly shouldn't be scolded with, "If you don't vote, you can't complain." Or with even harsher words, as one friend on Facebook put it: "If you don't vote, everything wrong in the world is your fault."

People long to be heard and deserve fair representation. Instead of bashing nonvoters, I recommend taking some deep breaths and initiating friendly conversations. Listen and learn. At a time when public trust in government is at historic lows, such conversations might even encourage someone to demand a voice."

I asked people why they don’t vote, and this is what they told me

In the 2016 election, more than a third of Americans didn’t vote. What might be keeping them from going to the polls?

theconversation.com

Click to shrink...

No. Vote.

 

[Deleted member 43]

The way I'd handle him as president would be.. how can I put this... removal from office by any means necessary. I would probably not last long as a president.

Click to shrink...

What a terrifying and awful leader you would be.

 

[Seraph84]

No. Vote.

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I'm going to let this slide since you already admitted you're not from the U.S. Just as an aside, did you know some other nations (with higher voter turnout) allow you to select "none of the above" on the ballot? I'd vote if the U.S. allowed me to do that.

 

[Xeno]

I'm going to let this slide since you already admitted you're not from the U.S. Just as an aside, did you know some other nations (with higher voter turnout) allow you to select "none of the above" on the ballot? I'd vote if the U.S. allowed me to do that.

Click to shrink...

I'm American. Fucking vote. This shit is more important than your ego or your wacky idealistic fantasy world. Vote.

Yeah, it sucks your choices are a stale sandwich or a punch in the face. But one hurts you, and the other is uncomfortable. Vote. If Trump wins again, part of it is on you if you don't vote. Period. Vote.

 

[BreakAtmo]

I'm going to let this slide since you already admitted you're not from the U.S. Just as an aside, did you know some other nations (with higher voter turnout) allow you to select "none of the above" on the ballot? I'd vote if the U.S. allowed me to do that.

Click to shrink...

As I already said, this is pointless since there will always be a winner. Choose that option and the absolute best case scenario is that other, smarter people make the right choice in great enough numbers and you coast along.

I think it would be pretty cool if there was a rule that a candidate needed at least, say, 30% of the eligible voting population to vote for them in order to win, with the election being declared null and void and being retried with new candidates should both fail to get 30%. Currently that will never happen. Know why? Republicans.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

People with that mentality absolutely infuriate me.
1. You're selfish
2. You're not smart

 

[El Bombastico]

I'm going to let this slide since you already admitted you're not from the U.S.

Click to shrink...

And yet they seem to be far more educated about US politics than you are.

 

[Seraph84]

I'm American. Fucking vote. This shit is more important than your ego or your wacky idealistic fantasy world. Vote.

Yeah, it sucks your choices are a stale sandwich or a punch in the face. But one hurts you, and the other is uncomfortable. Vote. If Trump wins again, part of it is on you if you don't vote. Period. Vote.

Click to shrink...

You people need more Malcolm X in your lives.

Lesser-evil' politics is a dead end for working class

"Both parties encourage workers to vote for the lesser evil, offering the hope that the "least worst" might be better than the "most worst." Both try to prevent workers from seeing ourselves, fighting together, as a force to defend and advance our class interests in the workplace, the streets and in politics.

(...)

Can we advance working-class struggle?
The real question workers face is how can we advance the struggles we wage, big or small, against what the bosses do to us. How can we link up in solidarity with others fighting today. And how can we strengthen the position of our class by building our own party, a labor party, as our struggles grow. Such struggles are an inevitable product of the deepening crisis of capitalism today. The capitalist lesser-evil electoral setup is a pressure valve the rulers use to entice workers to blow off some steam at the ballot box every few years, rather than rely on ourselves and deepen our struggles."


SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY CAMPAIGNS IN LOS ANGELES:
'We need our own party, a labor party'

 

[Deleted member 48434]

Some people only see in black and white. Shades of grey do not exist.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

If Medicare For All is something you can be so passionate about it would keep you out of elections, I would strongly encourage you to vote for Joe Biden. The Republicans gaining the Supreme Court would ensure you will NEVER see it.

Click to shrink...

This. It takes 2 braincells to realize this.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

You people need more Malcolm X in your lives.

Lesser-evil' politics is a dead end for working class

"Both parties encourage workers to vote for the lesser evil, offering the hope that the "least worst" might be better than the "most worst." Both try to prevent workers from seeing ourselves, fighting together, as a force to defend and advance our class interests in the workplace, the streets and in politics.

(...)

Can we advance working-class struggle?
The real question workers face is how can we advance the struggles we wage, big or small, against what the bosses do to us. How can we link up in solidarity with others fighting today. And how can we strengthen the position of our class by building our own party, a labor party, as our struggles grow. Such struggles are an inevitable product of the deepening crisis of capitalism today. The capitalist lesser-evil electoral setup is a pressure valve the rulers use to entice workers to blow off some steam at the ballot box every few years, rather than rely on ourselves and deepen our struggles."


SOCIALIST WORKERS PARTY CAMPAIGNS IN LOS ANGELES:
'We need our own party, a labor party'

Click to shrink...

imagine quoting Malcolm X and MLK whilst talking about not voting during an election against a blatant white supremacist

Stop doubling down.

And stop touting 3rd party votes as a viable option when that doesn't do anything or help anyone. Change is incremental. Get over it.

 

[Deleted member 64609]

What happened to the 1am "wife aggro"

 

[Xeno]

I would find it very hard to believe that any civil rights activist in history expected things to change overnight, or expected people to reject "better" because "better" wasn't "perfect". Makes no sense.

 

[Seraph84]

imagine quoting Malcolm X and MLK whilst talking about not voting during an election against a blatant white supremacist

Click to shrink...

It's a choice between two white supremacists. That's a choice I wholeheartedly reject.

Biden said. "What it says is, 'In order for your child with curly black hair, brown eyes, and dark skin to be able to learn anything, he needs to sit next to my blond-haired, blue-eyed son.' That's racist! Who the hell do we think we are, that the only way a black man or woman can learn is if they rub shoulders with my white child?"

-Joe "you ain't black if don't vote for me" Biden

Biden proposed his own amendment to the $36 billion education bill, stipulating that none of those federal funds could be used by school systems "to assign teachers or students to schools … for reasons of race." His amendment would prevent "some faceless bureaucrat" from "deciding that any child, black or white, should fit in some predetermined ratio." He explained, "All the amendment says is that some bureaucrat sitting down there in HEW cannot tell a school district whether it is properly segregated or desegregated, or whether it should or should not have funds." Finally, Biden called busing "an asinine policy."

The measure passed, outraging Massachusetts Republican Edward Brooke, who at the time was the only black senator in Congress. Brooke called the Biden amendment "the greatest symbolic defeat for civil rights since 1964." Biden later introduced a second amendment that explicitly barred the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare from ordering busing.

3rd party votes as a viable option when that doesn't do anything or help anyone. Change is incremental. Get over it.

Click to shrink...

I bet you would've said the same thing to civil rights protesters in the 60s, liberal. "Hey stop making trouble in the streets, change is incremental, stop protesting and vote!"

 

[Deleted member 135]

Do both. Protest and vote, for Biden. If you don't vote for Biden in November you are no different than your standard Trump supporter.

Civilization is in a decline period that reminds me of the Bronze Age Collapse. We can either throw up our hands in defeat and slide headfirst into oblivion or we can do every single we can to fight back against the darkness.

 

[Seraph84]

Do both. Protest and vote, for Biden. If you don't vote for Biden in November you are no different than your standard Trump supporter.

Click to shrink...

Not that I care one iota for your cause, but you should know that statements like this absolutely do harm to it. It's utter bullshit and turns away potential allies when you accuse them of being equivalent to Trump supporters.

 

[Slayven]

Not that I care one iota for your cause, but you should know that statements like this absolutely do harm to it. It's utter bullshit and turns away potential allies when you accuse them of being equivalent to Trump supporters.

Click to shrink...

To be fair it says a WHOLE lot that a person can only be a "potential ally " after the last four years.

 

[jack_package_200]

Not what I said but since you brought it up, and since he is drenched in blood money (he profits enormously from health insurance donations), I'm comfortable saying that if he were never born Earth and America would be better for it.

"Many more Americans die because of a lack of health insurance than previously thought, concludes a new state by state study by Families USA, a non-profit organisation that advocates health care for all Americans.

More than 26,260 Americans aged 25 to 64 died in 2006 because they lacked health insurance—more than twice as many as were murdered, Families USA said. In the seven years from 2000 to 2006 an estimated 162,700 Americans died because of lack of health insurance."

More than 26 000 Americans die each year because of lack of health insurance

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Click to shrink...

What the hell else did could you have implied with with that post?

 

[Seraph84]

What the hell else did could you have implied with with that post?

Click to shrink...

While you were clutching your pearls typing this defending Mitch McConnell, another 3 Americans died from lack of health insurance, and Mitch got another donation from health insurance profits. Fuck him.

 

[jack_package_200]

While you were clutching your pearls typing this defending Mitch McConnell, another 3 Americans died from lack of health insurance, and Mitch got another donation from health insurance profits.

Click to shrink...

Answer my question, what were you implying?

 

[Seraph84]

Answer my question, what were you implying?

Click to shrink...

Not playing this game with you where you try to get me in trouble with the mods, sorry friend. I wasn't implying anything.

I said "removal from office", and that's exactly what I meant.

 

[jack_package_200]

I said "removal from office", and that's exactly what I meant.

Click to shrink...

How?

 

[lush]

While you were clutching your pearls typing this defending Mitch McConnell, another 3 Americans died from lack of health insurance, and Mitch got another donation from health insurance profits. Fuck him.

Click to shrink...

You're pearl clutching in this very post about hypothetical Americans you don't give a shit about. You want the ACA to be repealed, protections for preexisting conditions to disappear, and millions to lose their health insurance. You want Republicans to keep the Senate and McConnell to remain the majority leader. You've made it very clear what you want.

Agreed. I choose not to legitimize it by voting. The lower the voter turnout, the better imho. Eventually we'll reach a point where people will point to that and say, "wtf, only 10% of the population votes for president? And oh shit, it's the richest 10%? We need to do something about this!"

Click to shrink...

Potential ally, lmfao.

 

[Seraph84]

You're pearl clutching in this very post about hypothetical Americans you don't give a shit about. You want the ACA to be repealed, protections for preexisting conditions to disappear, and millions to lose their health insurance. You want Republicans to keep the Senate and McConnell to remain the majority leader. You've made it very clear what you want.

Click to shrink...

Sure seems like you're putting a whole lot of words in my mouth, but okay. The legitimacy of our broken two party system will never be threatened as long as citizens keep engaging it by voting.

It's honestly deeply sad to me that so many people think their civic duty begins and ends at the ballot box.

 

[Encephalon]

"I care so much about universal healthcare that I want to do my part to help make sure it never happens."

 

[BaldwinAce]

While Biden would make a far better president than Trump, I think the empathy he's trying to show on camera during his statement is absolutely fabricated. I just wouldn't be able to trust this guy to be as progressive as some would expect him to be. I'm in Canada so my opinion has very little weight, as it should of course when it comes to it in the end. I just feel like finding the right words in certain circumstances can fool people into thinking they're said with actual true intent and meaning. If that makes any sense.

 

[cyress8]

It's honestly deeply sad to me that so many people think their civic duty begins and ends at the ballot box.

Click to shrink...

So what else should we do? Serious question. I want you to lay out what we should do.
I know what I should do, but more info is always welcome.

 

[plagiarize]

Sure seems like you're putting a whole lot of words in my mouth, but okay. The legitimacy of our broken two party system will never be threatened as long as citizens keep engaging it by voting.

It's honestly deeply sad to me that so many people think their civic duty begins and ends at the ballot box.

Click to shrink...

You've got two choices.

1. Accept that major reform isn't going to happen without a majority in government prepared to enact it and work to replace the current majority with the one more interested in such things.
2. Forcefully take over the country and throw the constitution out, while maintaining the support of the majority of the people.

If you can't do number 2, the only one left is number 1.

 

[SpaceCrystal]

Yeah, maybe not yet. But things could change in the future. Full disclosure I'm not voting third party in November - I'm not voting at all. I would've voted for Sanders, but I sure as hell am not voting for Trump nor Biden. Sanders WAS the compromise candidate. Now there are no good options so I won't be voting in November. I can't in good conscious vote for any president that doesn't at the very least support drastic justice system reform and medicare for all.

Click to shrink...

I hope you realize that you're already contributing towards Trump's re-election if you don't vote for Biden.

Staying at home? A vote for Trump.
Voting 3rd party? A vote for Trump.
Doing a write-in vote? A vote for Trump.

 

[Seraph84]

So what else should we do? Serious question. I want you to lay out what we should do.
I know what I should do, but more info is always welcome.

Click to shrink...

Educate, agitate, and organize your local community where you can have a much bigger impact than at the federal level. Read as many books as you have time for, and share them with others. Protest and stand in solidarity with marginalized groups.

And if/when push comes to shove, fight to demand and protect your and your fellow human beings rights.

Two books highly relevant to current events are,

This one:

Who Do You Serve, Who Do You Protect?

Explores the reality of US police violence against Black, Brown and Indigenous communities.

www.haymarketbooks.org

And this one:

The New Jim Crow - Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness Michelle Alexander

newjimcrow.com

 

[Seraph84]

You've got two choices.

1. Accept that major reform isn't going to happen without a majority in government prepared to enact it and work to replace the current majority with the one more interested in such things.
2. Forcefully take over the country and throw the constitution out, while maintaining the support of the majority of the people.

If you can't do number 2, the only one left is number 1.

Click to shrink...

If the wealth continues concentrating at the top at the same rate it has been for the last 25 or so years, sooner or later we are absolutely heading for #2.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

Not that I care one iota for your cause, but you should know that statements like this absolutely do harm to it. It's utter bullshit and turns away potential allies when you accuse them of being equivalent to Trump supporters.

Click to shrink...

To be fair it says a WHOLE lot that a person can only be a "potential ally " after the last four years.

Click to shrink...

Srsly.

If you look at what Trump has done, what he has enabled, in just one term and think "I might help stop him getting another four years in office" and act as though it's not your responsibility to do so, then you can go kindly fuck yourself.

The choice is either you vote for Biden or Trump wins. That's it. There is no outcome where choosing "none of the above" magically summons a wizard that solves all of America's problems overnight. That shit is going to take time and, frankly, America isn't going to change until it wants to.

 

[gozu]

Not that I care one iota for your cause, but you should know that statements like this absolutely do harm to it. It's utter bullshit and turns away potential allies when you accuse them of being equivalent to Trump supporters.

Click to shrink...

I grew up in a country with an absolute ruler. You could be jailed just for insulting him. Any criticism of the crown had to be whispered to people you trust. People just gave up on politics and voting since all they could vote for was parliament, and when everybody can be secretly jailed or shot at the order of the King, without any due process, the parliament members were useless at best, corrupt assholes at worst.

Do you know what it's like to go to trial knowing that the odds are good the outcome will be determined by who bribed the judge most, regardless of merit? Because corruption and decay flow downward and breed cynicism.

So, from my perspective, and I tell you this as a big brother would, it is absolutely shattering to see people in America flirt with utter ruin out of hatred or pride while tens of thousands of dads, moms and grandmas, sisters and brothers, uncles and aunts died and are dying now, suffocating because of that orange turd. Spending weeks in agony and terror before passing, unable to even be with their loved ones, just because Trump was elected and is a rare mix of casual sociopathy and stunning moronity.

It's really, truly, shattering. It's like I asked America out and she kissed me, then kicked me in the balls and called me a racial slur.