I mean it's not like Latinamerica hates US people or the US in general, specially since many have family there. But the distrust has been earned.
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In Latin America, a Biden White House faces a rising China
- Thread starter SilentPanda
- Start date
- News
I mean makes sense, they need to do business with somone and if I was them I'd be siding with the morally dubious neoimperalist power that hadn't repeatedly fucked them over already over the one that has done so many, many times in the past too. Neither option is great, but one has a long history of fucking over LatAm and the other doesn't yet, so the choice feels pretty clear for them
And this is why we need to invest more in Latin America, which would also help reduce stress from immigration.
Latin America needs god-to-honest reparations from the USA, not just investment. Reparations for the decades and decades of atrocities we've been party to, the Drug War, and the century and change of climate change destruction and literally criminal negligence and coverups done by our multinational corporations on the global stage every year of the last century and still counting.
WaPo: Honduras president seeks assistance, warns of increased migration in wake of devastating hurricanes
Yeah they need them, as well as from Europe/Spain due to how they stripped the region of some its most valuable resources, but it's not gonna happen. Best we can hope for is Biden/Dems doing a second "Marshall Plan" in Latin America like some other Dem candidates for the presidency had been proposing, and if they believe Chinese influence in the region is enough of a threat it may give them enough motivation to make it happen. Still, not expecting much sadly aside from some mostly ineffectual deals and some disaster relief.
Im going to be honest,i dont want to hear a single judgmental word from any american about this. Not a single one. Im not gonna blame people that are alive today for crimes of older administration,but also nothing infuriates me more than americans trying to act noble and/or condescending. My family suffered and died because of military coup they sponsored(and created, if im being even more honest).
57 military interventions (probably more at this point) vs. 0
Definitely a difficult choice for LatAm countries there.
Any arguments about Chinese soft power imperialism, even if true, are laughable in the face of U.S.-Latin American relations after the establishment of the Monroe Doctrine.
Definitely a difficult choice for LatAm countries there.
Any arguments about Chinese soft power imperialism, even if true, are laughable in the face of U.S.-Latin American relations after the establishment of the Monroe Doctrine.
Exactly this. I wish it was us Europeans supporting Latin America instead of China, but it's clear the US was never going to be it.
Anyone blaming Latin America is a self-centered ignorant you shouldn't care for to begin with.
Only downside is not every country will be able to pay back the loans. As a result China will get a bunch of ports and military bases in deals that last decades. It's just more neocolonialism.
Yeah, but I still hold out a little hope that the imperialists nations will be held to some sort of justice, and won't be allowed to rebrand themselves because they show up to door with a bucketload of money and not even a "We're super sorry for literally everything" note attached to it.
Reparations would garner so much goodwill cause just showing up with loans and such probably isn't going to get Latin America to kick China out to get back together with their historic and current abusers.
Like one of the biggest things the USA can do for all of Latin America is to immediately end the Drug War. It'll do a lot for us here in the states too.
Seems to me the USA can't move past their cold war mentality - why should you care about what investments China does in Latin America after all your governments have done?
I could understand the worries of those that have families here, or if this topic was created by Latin Americans to discuss between Latin Americans, but why should you have people from the US commenting on this, from their position of privilege? To all those talking about "how this is going to end", let me tell you: probably better than if the US tried something again. China is willing to throw money around, and most of the region needs it right now, either to face the consequences of the pandemic or to direct it to different projects, like infraestructure.
What has the US done the last year...? Oh, yeah, your president blocked in the height of the first wave the exportation of N95 masks when the american branch of 3M is the supplier for basically all of Latam. I'll take our countries' chances with China. I'd prefer if it was Europe, but they kind of have their own issues to worry about and their own messes to fix.
I could understand the worries of those that have families here, or if this topic was created by Latin Americans to discuss between Latin Americans, but why should you have people from the US commenting on this, from their position of privilege? To all those talking about "how this is going to end", let me tell you: probably better than if the US tried something again. China is willing to throw money around, and most of the region needs it right now, either to face the consequences of the pandemic or to direct it to different projects, like infraestructure.
What has the US done the last year...? Oh, yeah, your president blocked in the height of the first wave the exportation of N95 masks when the american branch of 3M is the supplier for basically all of Latam. I'll take our countries' chances with China. I'd prefer if it was Europe, but they kind of have their own issues to worry about and their own messes to fix.
I know in Africa they have a different approach, but in Latam they are mostly building infrastructure at low prices. In my country they have several projects, but none of them would result on them getting ownership of said project, since those funds are already paid.
Eh...as with Russia, Mutually Assured Destruction all-but guarantees a direct conflict between between the US and China will likely never happen. What we are on a clear path towards, however, are proxy wars with China - as we've been doing with Russia for the last 50-60 years. Proxy Wars are our government's favorite passtime as far as our foreign policy is concerned.
These proxy conflicts could very likely break out in Latin America and/or Africa - another area of the world that China is investing tons of money and labor into. They'll back one side, and we'll back the other.
Like we did with the USSR, the United States in China are heading full-speed towards a decades-long battle over global influence. And like the Cold War, millions of innocent people are likely going to get killed because of it.
I'm honestly far more worried about another Vietnam-like conflict happening than anything else.
Assuming it's paid for with a low internet loan like the ones in the OP, then it's exactly the same as Africa and Asia. They offer these loans knowing they're too good to be true. If the country pays it back then China gets good PR and makes a nice profits if the loan goes unpaid then China forces the country to ink a deal where it owns the infrastructure for decades, sometimes as long as 99 years.
I'm not saying Latin American countries should rush into the arms of the Biden administration, only that they should understand that these loans are just as much of a Faustian bargain as the ones the US offers.
Why would American Imperialists get to decide who South America does business with?
The US has spend the last decades constantly destabilizing the region and the CIA has murdered leaders and opposition politicians!
Not saying that the CCP doesn't have as much, if not more, blood on their hands. But I can definitely see why South American countries are reluctant to invite more American interference into their countries
The US has spend the last decades constantly destabilizing the region and the CIA has murdered leaders and opposition politicians!
Not saying that the CCP doesn't have as much, if not more, blood on their hands. But I can definitely see why South American countries are reluctant to invite more American interference into their countries
Everyone knows how they work in Africa, Asia and some parts of Europe. But in our case, we would get a loan from the world bank, Central American bank or other bank institutions, then open a tender. Chinese companies usually offer the best price/quality projects and that's why they win in Latam most of the times. They are actively bringing down the price barrier for most countries.
Of course they are not all good guys, and they would take any chance to size a port or a road if given the chance, but thats not whats happening here.
Don't you think that's a bit denigrating? Latin American countries and its governments aren't children - while some may have pure trash as presidents, that doesn't mean there aren't good statesmen and women in different areas, including the economic area. When taking the decision to accept those loans, in many cases, its because its the only alternative to continue developing infraestructure that the region needs, or even if there are other alternatives, they're the most convenient. In my country, they're taking part in infraestructure projects and competing under the same conditions european or american companies are - if they don't fulfill part of the contract, they will be sued and tossed out. Despite that, they still offer better prices and good quality!
Acting like only the US can see the "threat" posed by China is quite insulting, to be honest.
Problem is good politicians don't always win and no one is immune to propaganda. You're attempting to paint my concerns as xenophobia when I'm concerned for the people who want a better life getting screwed by selfish politicians and an imperialist nation masquerading as a friend. We've seen throughout the last few centuries how that's turned out, no amount of marketing changes what a lot of these deals are: neocolonialism. Just like McDonald's opening in Kuwait or a Levi's factory in Mexico, these act as arms of imperialism even if they aren't directly connected to the states they come from.
No, I'm not painting your concerns as xenophobia. I'm calling you out in that its funny that the country that has been well known for their imperialism, and the damage they've done to Latin American development is now worried because their ideological rival is sneaking on their backyard. Most comments saying "I'm worried about the people" act like the people here can't weight the options for themselves, when they're truly looking out for how this impacts the US. I don't think that is what you, specifically, mean, but it does come across as irritating.
Good politicians don't always win, I know. Some current presidents of the entire american continent prove that.However, what you don't realize is that in many places there ARE better measures in place to avoid the country getting screwed over by foreign corporations than there were in the past. Corruption will exist, yes, but there are measures to stop it.
In Chile, for example, chinese companies are participating in state programs to build hospitals and roads, among other projects, and the licitation's rules are explicit in the contract. If they breached them, its reason enough to end the contract and sue, just as it would happen to any company, no matter its capitals. And we've got other institutions that are independent from the government that keep an eye on the development, like our Comptroller. If China decides to play by the rules that have been laid down, why should their offers be ignored?
At the same time, funny you speak of neocolonialism when basically all the utilities here are privatized and in hands of canadian/european/american controllers. Heck, at this point, its simply adding another country to the mix.
My issue isn't with Chinese companies, it's with the low interest loans that are functionally poison pills. You're also assuming I condone the US's neocolonialism even though I'm explicitly against it. It isn't hypocritical or funny, you come across as smug and condescending by making assumptions.
You mean like the one that happened barely a year ago in Bolivia?
Silence reigns on the US-backed coup against Evo Morales in Bolivia | Mark Weisbrot
The Organization of American States had a key role in the destruction of the country’s democracy last November, says Mark Weisbrot of the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington
www.theguardian.com
Ain't no American with the right to be upset about this. If the US had any good intent, it would have reparations at the forefront of its policy with LatAm, but it never had any good intent so...
Exactly.
And when the obvious best option for US president talks about sanctions, we know we are fucked anyway.
Certainly a better era ahead for Latin America than the one where the US was dominant and instigated all sorts of wars, coups, assassinations, massacres, etc. Hell, they're currently in the process of slapping sanctions on Germany over an energy deal any sovereign state ought to be able to make and they're an ALLY.
Biden's gonna need a little more than despacito for Latin America to bother with him.
Biden's gonna need a little more than despacito for Latin America to bother with him.
The US has failed Latin America for the last 80 years or so, not sure what people expected. Is China better? Probably not, but so far AFAIK they haven't had coups done in Latin American nations unless I'm wrong.
China is doing the same thing in Africa as well. Will be interesting to see how it ends up.
China is doing the same thing in Africa as well. Will be interesting to see how it ends up.
In progress.
Not going fantastic so far.
It's cool though, we'll never let a setback stop us, onward and upward to Nicaragua!
China is problematic but the US has actively fucked over LatAm for decades and treated us like shit so it's way past time the region looked to strengthen other relationships.
The US has fucked Latin America up so much, they SHOULD tell us to fuck off when China rolls on in.
will Be interesting to see how this and China's involvement in Africa pan out over the years.
will Be interesting to see how this and China's involvement in Africa pan out over the years.
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No way the Americans are going to allow the Chinese to set up in their backyard. The coup planning must be intensifying at the CIA.
Looking at the thumbnail in the youtube video you posted, China has their big south asian enemy India surrounded on all sides. They own a port in Sri Lanka for 99 years so the south's covered and own the silk road in Pakistan occupied Kashmir up North and have contracts in Nepal and Myanmar in the east. No wonder China is land grabbing in the east from India. I doubt India can stand up to that. I think it's sort of like the Americans building their naval bases all around the world only China does it by buying up contracts for infrastructure projects. The Americans have drone diplomacy and China has vaccine diplomacy. We know which one will be more popular.
Looking at the thumbnail in the youtube video you posted, China has their big south asian enemy India surrounded on all sides. They own a port in Sri Lanka for 99 years so the south's covered and own the silk road in Pakistan occupied Kashmir up North and have contracts in Nepal and Myanmar in the east. No wonder China is land grabbing in the east from India. I doubt India can stand up to that. I think it's sort of like the Americans building their naval bases all around the world only China does it by buying up contracts for infrastructure projects. The Americans have drone diplomacy and China has vaccine diplomacy. We know which one will be more popular.
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In progress.
Not going fantastic so far.
It's cool though, we'll never let a setback stop us, onward and upward to Nicaragua!
EEEEEEEEEEEE tĂo Lucho!
In progress.
Not going fantastic so far.
It's cool though, we'll never let a setback stop us, onward and upward to Nicaragua!
It's "funny", but I was reading up on the Ortegas a bit and some things sounded very familiar:
Ortega media enrich first family, squeeze rivals across Nicaragua
President Daniel Ortega controls a media empire that spreads government propaganda, enriches his family, and financially squeezes rival outlets in Nicaragua.
It's like every negative accusation is something Trump has done in some manner, has tried to do, or suggested doing lol.
There was this in that infamous civil rights leader phone call the other week
So he's aware of the refugee/immigrants coming from the region. Enough to chide black activists on why his job is hard and why they, on the low, need to know their place.
Outside of that, check his website I guess.
I was thinking of plans of economic integration or development with said countries. Of course, I have heard of the plan to regulate undocumented immigrants in America, but that's an internal affair.
America always say we regime change countries because corruption or human rights, but it's always bullshit.
I don't need to know anything about the politics of Nicaragua (and I don't) in order to be against and American led right wing coup there. And it will be right wing coup because this is literally the only thing the US knows how to do.
An immense amount of Chinese production is controlled by representatives of the state. Do not mistake that for late stage capitalism, state actors still control the economy and have outsized influence on the "new money" that is from its new entrepreneur class.