Natalie has a bad record with nonbinary people. At best, shes side eyes and doesnt really understand non binary people while ignoring the thousands telling her to improve. At worst...
(No, I did not like the tweet at all)
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In a dilemma about Natalie Wynn's tweet about pronouns
- Thread starter Deleted member 46489
- Start date
(No, I did not like the tweet at all)
I don't like airing this out, but be careful with the person who continuously makes alts, they're a self-hating trans person who keeps coming back to spread their vile shit, and has already riled up at least one person leading to a perm earlier in this thread
Just...ignore and report, the mods have been doing a great job
Just...ignore and report, the mods have been doing a great job
Where does Natalie shit on non-binary people or ignore their criticism? Whenever she has had some potentially questionable comment in some video of hers, she's generally clarified her views on Twitter or answered to the criticism in her subsequent videos in ways that make it clear that she isn't against non-binary people like some claim she is or anything like that. She always makes it extremely clear that she isn't some trans-goddess who has the final say on anything non-cis gender related, but always talks about HER experiences that she often acknowledges is more priviliged and not everyone else's experience (while being supportive of others as well), and has time and time given public statements that she fully supports non-binary people.
You can't support enbies while also saying you're afraid enbies might hurt trans acceptance, which she literally said (the screengrab is on the last page). People are understandably upset. She's put her foot in her mouth re: enbies time and time again. It's clear that her view on gender is extremely binary, because that benefits her high-femme style. Her age is not an excuse. I'm 32 and started transitioning last year (started hormones just a few months ago), and I'd never even THINK shit like that.
Like a person above said, knowing something intellectually is not the same as believing it in your core. And that's okay! Everyone has to consciously fight their ingrained biases. But no one has to vomit their half-cooked thoughts onto twitter when they have a huge platform and people who listen to them.
People losing thier minds of nothing again.
Seems pretty obvious that she wants to say that a lot of trans people just want to be seen as the gender they say they are and as nothing special.
That is somewhat im conflict with people that are making a huge deal out of thier gender idenity.
Seems pretty obvious that she wants to say that a lot of trans people just want to be seen as the gender they say they are and as nothing special.
That is somewhat im conflict with people that are making a huge deal out of thier gender idenity.
In my native language there's just one pronoun for everyone. While I understand the struggle you have, a small part of it feels just a little silly since there would be no problem like this if everyone used the same pronoun in the first place. Perhaps it's form of privilege also to be born in a country with no gendered pronouns? Swedish has gendered pronouns, but I've heard some people have started using a gender neutral new pronoun that's supposed to cover everyone. I wonder if that's catching on?
It's almost as if people are making bad faith arguments for the sake of bashing her.
There's nothing wrong with her saying having to announce her pronouns makes her feel dysphoria because a cis woman would almost never be asked her pronouns.
The new gender neutral pronoun is used quite a bit. Most people haven't adopted it, but you hear it often on radio and podcasts etc.
I'm not a native English speaker so this isn't really the same problem here (but I've never met a trans person that I either didn't know was trans / was post-op and looked like their desired gender, so that's another thing).
But say you get a pronoun wrong when you meet a stranger, couldn't they just correct you and you'll go on with your day? Is it really that offensive to get it wrong -once-, out of ignorance?
But say you get a pronoun wrong when you meet a stranger, couldn't they just correct you and you'll go on with your day? Is it really that offensive to get it wrong -once-, out of ignorance?
Thread continues to be full of binary individuals disregarding the conversation to tell non-binary people there isn't an issue and they're making something out of nothing or being silly, with a few extra sprinkles of "aren't you privileged" on top.
Iirc she wasn't sitting there saying that "the future" was bad or anythingI can understand her initial posts that were stated in this thread, and I can understand how it can feel slightly othering for people to only ask pronouns when you enter the room, but she's getting a lot more flak now because she went beyond that once she started to receive some backlash from nonbinary people and the usefulness and need for people to ask pronouns. She hasn't had the greatest history with nonbinary people in the past and doesn't really seem to agree that people should be gendered correctly when they aren't fully presenting yet, but she said this as well :
If it's hard to tell from thier apperance, just asked them.Beyond that go my apperance, works most of the time.
As you said, if you get it wrong, for instance if the person is non-binary or possibly a really well passing cross-dress, just apologize and get it right from that point onwards.
This doesn't sound too dissimilar to some gay people worrying that very flamboyantly gay people could hurt gay acceptance. I'm bi and did kinda worry that in the past. I think my worry was wrong now and that it's likely that flamboyantly gay people in popular culture sped up gay acceptance, but it's not obvious to me that I was wrong to worry it in the past, and I don't think it means I had anything against flamboyant people. (If I had expressed my worry back then by trying to put down any flamboyant people then I think I would have been in the wrong; the right way to express my worry probably would be to make sure the existence and wants of less-flamboyant gay/bi people like myself was known too.)
It blows my mind how upset people get at someone trying to do things right. There's hundreds of folks out there who actually say ridiculously bigoted things about non-binary folks, yet Natalie is who everyone gets worked up over?
I don't get it. Even if what she said is mega-problematic... what do folks want? At what point is Natalie no longer the "enemy". Like it's pretty clear she's trying to engage with folks and be inclusive and if she's failing that's valid, but it doesn't deserve hate.
I don't get it. Even if what she said is mega-problematic... what do folks want? At what point is Natalie no longer the "enemy". Like it's pretty clear she's trying to engage with folks and be inclusive and if she's failing that's valid, but it doesn't deserve hate.
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Yeah, why would anyone get worked up over one of the most prominent members of the trans community openly posting pretty problematic shit? Maybe because people actually listen to her?
She's been critized for this kinda behaviour before. She could have just apologized for her shitty takes and tried being better, but she repeatedly didn't.
Hasn't she explicitly apologized in the past? I feel like I've watched those videos. Might not be remembering right though.
I don't think there's anything wrong with criticizing her. It's conflating it with bigotry that makes no sense to me. criticism shouldn't look like bullying.
User banned (1 week): Inflammatory generalisations, dismissive and antagonistic behaviour in a sensitive discussion.
But she has apologized. This just confirms that this whole mob rage against her is just plain & simple transphobia if literally every argument brought against her is either false or twisted to fit a contrived narrative.
lol a lot of trans folks have legit criticism in this very thread but yeah it's all transphobia. go off i guess???
I don't think any of the criticism expressed actually applied to what she said, and your only contribution to this thread so far has been insulting her and making a snide comment about her income.
I think you might've skimmed over this one https://www.resetera.com/threads/in...et-about-pronouns.138596/page-5#post-24274936
And if you really think nothing said in this thread applied to what she said (????) I don't think you've actually been reading any of this thread
I did miss it.
I do agree that Contra views her gender expression as extremely binary and that it impacts her opinions on enbies.
But I don't see how that's related to that twitter thread she wrote, which had nothing to do with how enbies express gender and everything to do with her disliking being reminded she's trans.
I'm glad you get to make that determination for non-binary people before dismissing their concerns as 'plain and simple transphobia'.
You don't get to tell me how to feel, also stop assuming what my gender identity is.
The conversation moved on. The reason she actually deleted her twitter was because the comments about non-binary trans people attracted a lot of criticism, with good reason. Next time you go off maybe make sure you know what you're talking about.
This should probably be thread marked so that people like me don't dig forever to actually find the tweets in question
Yeah it took me a while to find too. See my first quote
I never assumed your gender expression, I said you're making that determination for the non-binary people expressing concern in the thread.
The highlighted part should have a glowing irony sign attached to it though, after dismissing an entire thread of concerns as actually just being transphobia and telling people there's no reason to be upset.
Oh I know what I'm talking about, but thank you for your advice. Also I don't see how her second thread was problematic, she simply expressed she felt different from non-binary people, because she is in fact, binary.
people are "i have a trans/nb friend"'sing the person recieving the cirticism, it's fucking wild
restating "i don't see a problem" over and over again isn't the same thing as making a point
So let me get this straight. You think all the backlash is transphobic, you're refusing to understand why any of the criticisms matter, and you're deflecting criticism with "don't assume my gender expression", which NOBODY did? And you have 46 posts. thinking emoji
Trying to bully me, or intimidate me, won't make me change my mind. Also i am allowed to not know what my gender identity is, and yes Ryuujin did make several posts implying I was binary. PS: I don't have to prove myself to you or anyone. You're welcome & good luck.
I mean if you want to accuse everyone who has a problem with these comments of being transphobic, yeah, you kinda do
I cannot fathom how the criticism of Natalie could be viewed as transphobic when by far the most incisive criticism she consistently gets is from trans people. Honestly the more I read this topic and the attempts defenses of what she said, the more impossible it is to view what she said as anything but obviously coming from a place of phobia toward the non-binary.
-People were upset that her big video about non binary identities prominently features a character (also one of her two only enby characters in three years of producing content) thinking they are enby before realizing that they are "just gay" and walking it back. People were upset because her biggest enby character went "nope guess Im not" and left it there. She never responded.
-The Are T*** gay video has a single mention of enby people and its to make a joke about how sexually confused they are. People were upset that Natalie only cared about mentioning them when making a joke about their sexuality/confusion. She never responded.
I never said that she shits on non-binary people, because she never has explictly said "oh non binary people suck".
What she does is ignore them in her content (which is mostly specifically about gender) and when she does include them she either does it in the form of a exaggerated character like Baltimore (whom i like in a vacuum but i also dislike the idea that cis people will be introduced to nonbinary genders via a character who regularly wears a glitter beard) or in the form of a character who thinks that they are non binary but they were just confused.
How can someone make two videos about TERFs while basically ignoring non binary people is beyond me.
Saying "i support non binary people" is good and all but when you exclude them from your content or fuck up constantly when you do include them then...there is a lot of room for criticism. I never believed that she was a trans goddess and I dont know why thats being brought up. Im upset because one of the biggest trans voices in the world has had multiple uncomfortable comments and ideas about non binary people, while doubling down when people try to explain to her how bad her take was.
Remember this, if the tweets were the first time that Natalie had had lacking opinions about non binary people, this wouldnt have blown up as it did. I like her content but its made me feel more and more unwelcome as the time has gone by.
If Natalie herself said it was her choice to go off Twitter and not down to anything like harassment I don't get why people are going on about people being too woke. I like Natalie but it would have been nice to see her address the criticisms she's received from the non-passing and non-binary communities since she started talking about gender rather than leave Twitter given she's seen as a arbiter in that space, but a guess Twitter's not the best to discuss that.
As for those getting upset on her behalf remember that she herself has spoke about how crushing being misgendered can be. The thing she complained about is just to ensure other people aren't misgendered in a safe space. I can see why it might be frustrating when you expect people to know your gender by looking at you, but at the same time you've got to realise you're in an area where that may not be the case with everybody.
Also it's funny to see "Hey, believe this person directly involved in this thing!" when it's one person in a highly complicated topic where it's impossible for them not to be extremely biased for numerous reasons, but in a thread with a large number of non-binary representatives talking about a relatively simple topic it's okay to ignore all of them.
As for those getting upset on her behalf remember that she herself has spoke about how crushing being misgendered can be. The thing she complained about is just to ensure other people aren't misgendered in a safe space. I can see why it might be frustrating when you expect people to know your gender by looking at you, but at the same time you've got to realise you're in an area where that may not be the case with everybody.
Also it's funny to see "Hey, believe this person directly involved in this thing!" when it's one person in a highly complicated topic where it's impossible for them not to be extremely biased for numerous reasons, but in a thread with a large number of non-binary representatives talking about a relatively simple topic it's okay to ignore all of them.
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She should have managed this better but a section of people criticizing her should have handled this better too. When a lot of people are just sending her "arguments" like "FUCK YOU! FUCK YOU!" "TRUSCUM!" then I can see why she deleted.
Isn't this the same as disregarding a valid reason why some binary trans folks might feel dysphoric? Specially when the "pronouns circle" is promoted by cis people? I don't think the point is to say that someone is wrong and someone is right about this. Both sides of the argument are correct.
Isn't this the same as disregarding a valid reason why some binary trans folks might feel dysphoric? Specially when the "pronouns circle" is promoted by cis people? I don't think the point is to say that someone is wrong and someone is right about this. Both sides of the argument are correct.
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Yeah it is wild.Thread continues to be full of binary individuals disregarding the conversation to tell non-binary people there isn't an issue and they're making something out of nothing or being silly, with a few extra sprinkles of "aren't you privileged" on top.
This whole post is my take on the situation.
I chimed in with it'd probably be easier to just have everyone introduce themselves with their pronouns, that way NB people are respected in the space, and people who would get dysphoria from someone misgendering them don't have to provide pronouns as they want people to assume them for extra validation.
I think the main issue is that it largely comes from that person putting their own insecurities over the well being of an entire group? Having their gender clocked based on their image isn't a luxury some people ever have where clearly Natalie does and that's solely what the circle's there for, not to undermine the fact she passes. The framing of a Tweet making it seem more likely to be from a place or frustration rather than genuine hurt, especially given the southern (or as it sports?) bar comparison where she could have great time because she passes but the groups the "pronoun circle" is there for would potentially have traumatic experiences didn't help. It's about being considerate to a less fortunate group which is something Natalies always done a really good job with when it comes to addressing the issues trans POC go through.
It's also a matter of the this Tweet not being in a vacuum but that's already been gone over.
There is a real problem with the framing of being too old school to keep up with these hip new non-binary kids. Non-binary gender identity is not new. It certainly predates her. Acting like this is a brand new thing that the kids have come up with that she is too old to be expected to keep up with is definitely off-putting.
That's not what she is saying...
People openly celebrating thier new found gender identity or idenfiniyng as non-binary wasn't a happening 10 years ago.
That's very much a new thing.
Seriously, you guys are looking for ways to frame her statemens in the worst way possible.
So just to make it clear: this isn't what she's being criticized for. I get how being asked her pronouns can be dysphoric, especially when it's only asked of trans people. The problem is what she says about nonbinary people on top of that, plus what she's said since those initial bunch of tweets, as well as her using her age as an excuse for having those views.
The word nonbinary might be relatively new, but people were openly talking about and celebrating being genderqueer or genderfluid for decades prior at least. It's not new.
I can understand her initial posts that were stated in this thread, and I can understand how it can feel slightly othering for people to only ask pronouns when you enter the room, but she's getting a lot more flak now because she went beyond that once she started to receive some backlash from nonbinary people and the usefulness and need for people to ask pronouns. She hasn't had the greatest history with nonbinary people in the past and doesn't really seem to agree that people should be gendered correctly when they aren't fully presenting yet, but she said this as well :
Yo wtf is that last line. That's all but saying non binaries are too weird and will set back trans acceptance.
What the hell is that and why is she speaking like an elder stateswoman lmao.
The "last of old school transsexuals" please.