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IMO, there's a difference between genuine, moderate conservatives, & right-wing, raving Trump supporters.
- Thread starter SpaceCrystal
- Start date
Yeah Americans need to realize how skewed their system is.The Democrats would be slightly to the left of the center right party in my country in Europe disounting the younger progressive wing. The Republicans are off the scale altogether. They are miles away from traditional conservatism.
"Classic" conservatism championed by people like Ronald "Welfare Queens" Reagan has left black communities devastated. Black people make up about 13% of the US population but about 40% of the prison population. That shit didn't start under Donald Trump. Y'all need to accept the US is a racist ass country. The civil Rights movement was only 60 years ago. And "conservatives" back then we're the ones holding "Race mixing is communism" signs. You can miss me with that bullshit.
All the "genuine" conservatives voted for Trump. More conservatives in general voted for Trump this time than last. They are all trash. Every one of them.
I disagree with conservatives regardless of who they align with and believe they are only out for their self interest, but there is a difference between those who voted for Trump and those who didn't. There will always be conservatives no matter where you are from, but it does take integrity to vote against self interest for the good of our entire Democracy and denounce the terrible acts of Trump. Doesn't amount to much since it should be the expectation, but when over 70m Americans back the guy it does take some resolve to recognize that your side is backing a dangerous person.
No matter what you say your values are, if you pull the lever for fascists you're AT BEST a fascist-enabler.
But probably just a shy fascist.
But probably just a shy fascist.
This is imo a perfect example of why "trump is just saying the quiet parts loud" is just a bullshit excuse. While someone may not align with a McCain or Romney or someone like that, they weren't shouting bullshit across the networks to dumb everyone down, they accepted loss, they didn't empower hate crimes and police violence like Trump.
Him saying the quiet parts loud is a huge problem that reached right wing crazys across the globe. One of the biggest problems with him. Everywhere facts are getting handwaved away with some "fake news" vomited over every argument you could make.
Him saying the quiet parts loud has done so much damage in terms of conspiracy theories, right wing rise, climate change denial that I can't even begin to understand how that can be spun into a "JUST saying it loud"
How many of these "moderate conservatives" stood up at any time during Trump's presidency where he overreached, spouted racist shit, gassed protestors, encouraged a kidnapping of an elected official, I'll wait. So honestly spare me, they will go along with a fascist president, they just might not say it out loud.
On a general level, I agree.
Politics is a vast vast spectrum and trying to pigeonhole beliefs into neat little boxes (or try to meld yourself into them) doesn't seem helpful.
that being said, too many people treat it as purely tribal and will vote for someone they disagree with on many things, simply because they dislike the other side too
Politics is a vast vast spectrum and trying to pigeonhole beliefs into neat little boxes (or try to meld yourself into them) doesn't seem helpful.
that being said, too many people treat it as purely tribal and will vote for someone they disagree with on many things, simply because they dislike the other side too
Yep. As seen via RVAT. A lot of them voted third party in 2016, too.
Sucks living with far-right fam that worship dicks like Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, and see ho harm in Trump at all.
Sucks living with far-right fam that worship dicks like Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, and see ho harm in Trump at all.
Being liberal in the US is relative to the population. So, perhaps if I compare my views to the average European, I'm conservative (though I doubt it being as my policy views on the economy/society are far more socialist/Marxist than what any European country is). However, comparing my views to the average American, I'm liberal.
Most of my views on policy are quite socialist, but my views on other things temper me down to what would be considered a liberal by most Americans, a neoliberal by some progressive Americans, and (maybe) a conservative by a hardcore Marxist Asian. Of course, what the nonAmerican labels me as is the most irrelevant since I'm an American and how my views look next to another American is way more important for American politics.
Yeah, I agree with you there. I get it's mostly people being hyperbolic but there are people who read that and really believe it, and it's just so woefully ignorant imo.
And it is pretty amusing to see Europeans go on and go about their supposed more-enlightened takes on racism. I've seen the same level of racism out of Europe as I have in the US, and watching Europe become slightly browner and reacting by having more support for racist, nationalistic groups kinds of shows that maybe some populations aren't as progressive as they think.
Ehhh, I have to disagree with some of it.
I'm definitely a "liberal" by most progressive standards and I'm fine with it. I don't think progressives are loons, I think we just have different ideas of temperament or implementation for change, and being more extreme probably means your personality is a bit more emotional/passionate in terms of discussing these ideas.
They are a voting bloc within our larger "left" side and they're trying to push the party left, including the moderate Democrats. To me, that shows they *are* trying to get people to agree with them, and I respect and salute the effort. It makes sense-- if you want more progressives, you have to turn non-progressives into progressives.
I think a key part of what makes an American progressive is someone who is disillusioned with the system so much that they don't want to participate in it because, to them, participation in the system is propping up the system. For some, this means that the better solution, and the solution they want, is to burn the system down and start again. I, as a liberal, don't agree it's the better solution and I believe in the slow, inefficient, but less violent system we have now.
However, a progressive should continue to preach their views if they want to convince others to join them. Having them just shut up and engage in the system the way a "moderate" engages goes against what it means, for them, to be progressive. Asking them to shut up and engage in the system the way we want is effectively the same as them telling us we need to do what they think is best.
At the end of the day, I'd like people to consider the many different layers and issues and beliefs and pick the one they believe in. I don't think asking one group to give up their beliefs is right... we should allow for a marketplace of ideas (lolol) with choice.
Eh, people who vote Trump probably don't think moderate Democrats exist (I mean, to them, Kamala and Biden are the same level of socialist as Sanders)... but obviously there's a gap between moderate Demos and progressives. We've definitely heard Republicans say that Trump *should* concede peacefully but we don't really pay any attention to them because we write them off as one and the same.
It's fine, OP.
Of course people in a particular voting block exist on a spectrum. Not every Trump supporter is a raving lunatic and I think it's bad strategy to go about broadly labeling everyone in that camp as an irredeemable racist even if they are complicit.
Democrats did an awesome job turning out. But they have to find a way to depress Republican turnout and better appeal to minority groups.
Of course people in a particular voting block exist on a spectrum. Not every Trump supporter is a raving lunatic and I think it's bad strategy to go about broadly labeling everyone in that camp as an irredeemable racist even if they are complicit.
Democrats did an awesome job turning out. But they have to find a way to depress Republican turnout and better appeal to minority groups.
OP all of that goes out the window once you voted for a fascist. Theres nothing to talk about.
These topics tend to come from people who reeeeally need to check their privilege. I dont know you so I wont make the leap but I have noticed it from other people.
These topics tend to come from people who reeeeally need to check their privilege. I dont know you so I wont make the leap but I have noticed it from other people.
i feel like you can think that there are the same but if you act like that you wont get anywhere politically.
Turnout in 2024 is going to be critical, or it'll be 2016 all over again. It's already giving me anxiety and Biden isn't even in office yet.
How do you square intelligence with devout religiousness to an obviously man-made religion? How do you square Jesus love with intolerance and bigotry?
I don't get it. Why are humans so fucking confusing? None of this makes any sense. I have a friend who I'm thinking of while making this comment, but he's white, and I believe his main drive is fear. He's also more religious than average though. Wouldn't go to his colleague and "friend"'s gay wedding.
Clearly, we need a new religion to replace the obsolete ones. No. Not scientology. Something that is actually a net positive. Meaning no new age crystal nonsense that leads to anti-vax. Maybe a "Do whatever the fuck you want" (DWTFYW) religion, which people can go to be with other people and sing, but whose only, sole and core tenet is "do whatever the fuck you want". It wou-
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NEWSFLASH: "As of 3 seconds after this religion was proposed, it was hijacked by violent nihilists who have made the Joker the church's symbol."
~~~~~~~~~~
Aight, never mind. The DWTFYW was a bad idea but I still feel like we need something to fit in that brain slot and act as a vaccine against bigotry.
Clearly school is not enough since your friend turned out the way he did despite excelling at it. It needs to be closer to religion in shape, if not in nature.
I don't know how much I believe in this mythic reasonable moderate American conservative in this particular era we're in. Like, what is their conservative media diet like? The whole right wing media eco-system is so outrageous and toxic, how do you immerse yourself in that stuff and not come out some shade of nuts?
Rush Limbaugh used to be the crazy end of the spectrum, but now there's a million of him and they're the mainstream ones. I used to believe that there were smart responsible conservatives out there - civil servants, scientists - who were too well read and worldly to veer into the propaganda sphere but in 2020 what's conservative branded left that's not that?
Turns out Rod Rosenstein was undermining the Russia investigation all along. When I watch recent House and Senate hearings, it seems like half of the GOP speakers are actually genuinely duped by craziest parts of the talk radio reality deniers. They're supposed to be the ones cynically using it for political purposes, not actually duped by it. How does one actually stay "moderate reasonable" conservative in 2020? I don't know if it's possible.
Rush Limbaugh used to be the crazy end of the spectrum, but now there's a million of him and they're the mainstream ones. I used to believe that there were smart responsible conservatives out there - civil servants, scientists - who were too well read and worldly to veer into the propaganda sphere but in 2020 what's conservative branded left that's not that?
Turns out Rod Rosenstein was undermining the Russia investigation all along. When I watch recent House and Senate hearings, it seems like half of the GOP speakers are actually genuinely duped by craziest parts of the talk radio reality deniers. They're supposed to be the ones cynically using it for political purposes, not actually duped by it. How does one actually stay "moderate reasonable" conservative in 2020? I don't know if it's possible.
The problem is far too often the genuine "moderate" republicans are more than willing to go along whims of Trump Cultists. They will compromise with them before they would with the left.
Strong disagree here OP. There is no such thing as a "moderate" conservative, at least not anymore. Or at most, they represent a very tiny and inconsequential minority of the overall Republican electorate. Two reasons I think this is the case:
1) 93% of Republicans voted for Trump in 2020. Polls on social, economic, and political issues time and again show most Republicans aligning themselves with the Trump administration's policies and positions.
2) If such a thing as a "genuine, moderate conservative" really existed, Trump would be an anomaly in global conservative politics. Except conservatives around the world have given us Trump, Orban, Duda, Bolsonaro, and Boris Johnson.
There is no such thing as a "moderate conservative". Even when it came down to it, the so-called "moderate" Republicans like McCain and Romney always fell in line to vote for the most extreme of Republican policies (aside from McCain's one instance in which he voted against repealing the ACA).
1) 93% of Republicans voted for Trump in 2020. Polls on social, economic, and political issues time and again show most Republicans aligning themselves with the Trump administration's policies and positions.
2) If such a thing as a "genuine, moderate conservative" really existed, Trump would be an anomaly in global conservative politics. Except conservatives around the world have given us Trump, Orban, Duda, Bolsonaro, and Boris Johnson.
There is no such thing as a "moderate conservative". Even when it came down to it, the so-called "moderate" Republicans like McCain and Romney always fell in line to vote for the most extreme of Republican policies (aside from McCain's one instance in which he voted against repealing the ACA).
Conservative policies are by definition at odds with improvement.
They are driven by fear and comfort. They ignore the suffering of others because they fear that the betterment of the suffering will somehow cause they themselves to suffer.
The conservative mind cannot fathom an equal and just world because they benefit from inequality.
They do this even when they are subject to the harshness of conservative policy. It's a never ending cycle of fear that causes them to accept the 'punishment', because their minds the cure will be worse.
They are driven by fear and comfort. They ignore the suffering of others because they fear that the betterment of the suffering will somehow cause they themselves to suffer.
The conservative mind cannot fathom an equal and just world because they benefit from inequality.
They do this even when they are subject to the harshness of conservative policy. It's a never ending cycle of fear that causes them to accept the 'punishment', because their minds the cure will be worse.
I can buy into good or decent people being conservative as I know a few. None of them voted for Trump, many have had issues with the party for a long time and almost all of them identify as Independents. If this topic is directly about conservatives that knowingly voted for Trump and then knowingly voted for him again, yeah I don't know about any sane defense for that.
I assume when you speak of Merkel's (Yes, she's right of center) austerity you're talking about it regards to her demand of austerity upon Greece?
While that is correct, you're presenting it as if there was no stimulus in the EU after the financial crisis. The European council's 2008 European recovery packages included €200 bn in stimulus to EU countries. That plan was written under the presidency of Barroso (member of the EPP group consisting of European center right parties, including CDU). Germany themselves passed a stimulus package of €30+ bn in 2008 (edit: €50 bn in 2009). France approved stimulus packages of €26 bn under Sarkozy, which was a conservative government.
The austerity demands from Germany came later (2010) as a response to EU nations buying up Greece's debt from private banks.
So it's not like the center right in Europe was/is ideological opposed to stimulus projects.
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I don't know why people use anecdotes of republicans that voted Biden but voted R down ticket as a kind of counterpoint to the "evil conservative" narrative. They still voted for legislators that rushed through confirmations of Kavanaugh and Barret, that tried repeatedly to repeal ACA, that downplay climate change and police violence, etc... They're still trash no matter how you look at it.
I'm really, really struggling with my parents right now. While my dad is a traditional low tax fiscal conservative, my mom is really bought into cultural conservatism as an identity and takes it all incredibly personally. The way she is able to insert political barbs into conversation is like she's just laying landmines everywhere, and it's incredibly straining. It has gotten to a point where it is a source of stress for me and my girlfriend going into the holidays wherein we will be spending plenty of time with them. My girlfriend is an economic policy researcher so it's hard for discussion of her work not to elicit political comments, and being as her work is based in real data and facts she tends to lean somewhat to the left. So we're very nervous when my mom does shit like post that Facebook is destroying free speech and that she's moving to Parler
the good news is that you have an easy out for this year's family gatherings. unless covid denial is also a part of that cultural conservatism, in which case, good luck
I mean, as long as we agree the 71m votes for Trump are all piece of shit garbage humans I can accept your hypothesis.
I agree. They're a small group but they exist. And they didn't vote for Trump.
Yep!
I honestly thought my dad was lost to the cult. Die hard Fox New viewer, literally voted for Pat Buchanan in the '92 primary, Rush on the radio etc. Recently he's been on hard times and had to drop his cable sub before COVID hit. So he's been getting his news from the local stations (I got him an OTA antenna) and it's been a remarkable shift. He's still on board with the usual republican BS, taxes, national debt, immigration/jobs but the "fuck the libs" mindset is gone. Trump's COVID response soured him totally on Trump since he wasn't getting a steady diet of Fox News bullshit. A couple months ago we were talking and he said he'd vote Biden because anything that got Trump out of gov't was worth it. He almost certainly split his ticket but it's possible to break the worst of the brainwashing.
If the differences between D and R was things like taxes, and federal vs local control of things like schools and healthcare I could see having spirited debate. When it becomes about denying reality, or working to keep people who don't look like you down (see LBJ quote, or the pizza toppings vs racism meme) that's where it ends.
I don't think every R voter is lost to reason, but the numbers of people that voted Trump is downright terrifying. If there's that many people that lived through the last four years and said "Yes, more of that" then there's a level of ignorance that I'm not sure can be fixed. It's clear the long game of fucking up education is paying dividends. I'm hopeful that leaders like the Squad can inspire people on the left to vote so we can work to correct the imbalance. I'm hopeful that in the long run we can get better but right now? Nah, if they still voted for Trump after all this? I'm not giving an olive branch to anyone who is not willing to do the same.
If the differences between D and R was things like taxes, and federal vs local control of things like schools and healthcare I could see having spirited debate. When it becomes about denying reality, or working to keep people who don't look like you down (see LBJ quote, or the pizza toppings vs racism meme) that's where it ends.
I don't think every R voter is lost to reason, but the numbers of people that voted Trump is downright terrifying. If there's that many people that lived through the last four years and said "Yes, more of that" then there's a level of ignorance that I'm not sure can be fixed. It's clear the long game of fucking up education is paying dividends. I'm hopeful that leaders like the Squad can inspire people on the left to vote so we can work to correct the imbalance. I'm hopeful that in the long run we can get better but right now? Nah, if they still voted for Trump after all this? I'm not giving an olive branch to anyone who is not willing to do the same.
I can relate when trying to talk to my friend's parents.
They are small town Pennsylvania folk. During our talks the topic of travel comes up and they just lay landmines down everywhere.
"It's a real shame what "they" have down to these cities"
"With antifa around, I just don't think it's a good idea to visit any of these cities"
"Haha better bring your guns if you go!"
Like holy shit I'm just trying to make conversation about traveling.
If by "stimulus" you mean, "let's give tons of basically free money to banks!", then that's what the EU (or "Merkel" as you say) did as well. Led ultimately to the creation of the ESM, which is a giant monetary fund to be used for that purpose (and has since actually been used for more direct aid for struggling economies, but that's a fairly recent thing)
I'd also say Merkel is more "center-center". Her entire politics is defined by cherry picking currently popular ideas in Germany and making them her own.
I believe there were a significant number of Republicans who voted Biden this time around. People were obsessing about the "silent Trump voter" this election but the real "silent" voters were Republicans silently voting for Biden and not saying anything in fear of being skewered by fellow Republicans.
yeah. this exactly. was just texting my mom about holiday travel plans and seeing my grandparents, and she said it'd be safe as long as I don't "go to any Biden rallies". like WTF, Biden is not having fucking disease fest virus orgies like Trump is, and even if there WERE Biden events why the hell would she think I'd be so thoughtless as to expose myself
Maybe at one point you could argue that but with the Southern Strategy of the 60s, the rise of the Christian Right in the 70s, Reaganomics in the 80s and the NRA-ification of the 90s, the Republican Party is essentially the party of gun-toting racist, sexist, homophobes who hate taxes.
And even the ones who aren't bigots at best value guns or personal wealth over basic human rights and equality.
And even the ones who aren't bigots at best value guns or personal wealth over basic human rights and equality.
lee atwater solidified racially coded language as part of the republican party's southern strategy in the 80's. there is a fairly famous and notorious quote by him in this article (warning racist language)
"genuine, moderate conservatives" have been playing these games for over 40 years. earlier and less formally with nixon
trump is different because he is overtly racist, that is all. we white folks like to say things are different now because we don't want to admit what we've been tolerating all this time
"genuine, moderate conservatives" have been playing these games for over 40 years. earlier and less formally with nixon
trump is different because he is overtly racist, that is all. we white folks like to say things are different now because we don't want to admit what we've been tolerating all this time