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IMO, there's a difference between genuine, moderate conservatives, & right-wing, raving Trump supporters.

Wreckord Collection

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,151
From "good people on both sides," to kids in cages, to COVID response, to being unable to denounce Q bullshit there were a plethora of events that could/should have given them a reason to stand up, speak out, or do literally anything, but these folks decided to remain silent for four years. The republicans that the OP describes couldn't display one bit of empathy towards others.

Fuck that.
Fuck them.
 

Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
These are buzz terms

I gotta lump them together. Even the Lincoln Project are in the same group.


All of them voted for trump don't you dare listen to their bullshit.
 
myojinsoga

myojinsoga

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,036
I think the American experience is so deeply coloured by the last (iunno) 30-40 years of what so-called conservatives have done to you (which is, legitimately, evil, for the record).

My mostly uneducated take is that there are good reasons for conservatism, but that it gets so easily suckered into venality.
 
Pirateluigi

Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,866
I have yet to see an American conservative describe their stances in a way that wasnt horrifying to me. Putting aside that the Dem party would be conservative anywhere else in the world, American conservative ideology (the right) is anti science, regressive, bigoted, nationalistic, and oppressive.
 
Aurongel

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
Heshinsi said:


Racist lady: "He's an Arab"

McCain: "No ma'am. He's a decent family man citizen that I just happen to have disagreements with"

Why would he use family man and citizen as a rebuke to the statement that "he's Arab"?
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Her remark is transparent in that it's coming from an extremely racist/xenophobic place and McCain rebukes it by specifically highlighting two very high level characteristics that she shares in common with Obama to connect the two at least on some very high level. It's the simplest read of that exchange that there is so if you still think that there's some underlying racism in McCain's wording then the burden of proof is on you to show what he said that directly demonstrates that. Occam's Razor, etc.

If McCain wanted to dogwhistle to this woman and anyone listening (as Trump and many other Republicans have) then he would not have been as direct as he was with shutting her down. He would have given one of those wishy-washy Trumpian answers like "I don't know, but something's suspicious there. He could be hiding something, I don't know" to stoke xenophobic paranoia while hiding behind the cheap veneer of plausible deniability.
 
alexiswrite

alexiswrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,418
"I don't hate you, I just cool with, support and enable people who hate you for my own selfish reasons" isn't exactly compelling.
 
NCR Ranger

NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
Not much daylight between them in my experience. They might not immediately shout fake news and MAGA at anything they don't like, but they believe all the same shit.
 
Skiptastic

Skiptastic

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,684
Semfry said:
The Lincoln Project was an attempt to appeal to this unicorn... And Trump's Republican vote share increased from last time (of course, any look into who TLP shows how vile "moderate" Republicans still are)
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That was to be expected because once being a Republican became synonymous with Trumpism, anyone who wasn't a fan of Trump's would have left the party.
 
steejee

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,605
The 'Genuine' moderate Republicans have all either left the party, or have been complicit in the Trumpism.
 
ToddBonzalez

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
I agree that there is some difference. One group "just" has shitty, harmful beliefs and the other are actually brainwashed lunatics.
 
Game2Death

Game2Death

Member
Oct 25, 2017
157
Alright I have some thoughts on this after thinking about it. First off, I do know a couple "moderate conservatives" in my public policy graduate program. Would normally be Republicans but Trump made this either "independent" or becoming a "moderate Democrat". Personally I don't want conservatives in the Democratic Party. I wish the Republican Party wasn't pure evil at this point.
 
Damaniel

Damaniel

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,535
Portland, OR
I'd agree that there is a difference, but the number of 'genuine' conservatives has been dropping off a cliff over the last couple decades (and especially over the last few years) due to social media and right wing talk/'news' radio. I expect that the few remaining will rebrand themselves as libertarians, while the rest will go on to complete their transition into full knuckle-dragging Trumpists.

My mom falls solidly into the former 'genuine' conservative category. She's always been libertarian-minded, very anti-tax, but otherwise pretty socially moderate. She voted for Hillary in 2016 despite hating her with every fiber of her being, just because she considered Trump to be even worse. My dad (a pro-Trump voter, but not terribly rabid) retired last year, and the two of them started taking lots of road trips, right wing talk radio playing all the time. These days, all she talks about is Antifa, socialism and Trump. She was actually pissed when she heard that Biden was going to start 'listening to scientists'. She was *always* pro-science until recently. I haven't even mentioned the vaccine news to her yet, since I'm guessing she'll claim the announcement date was a conspiracy to undermine Trump.
 
The Curry Witch

The Curry Witch

Member
Jan 11, 2019
601
Yayate said:
No, because they're still ~socially conservative~. And thus they're garbage.



'trans rights are something a moderate conservative supports' - you, right now. the fuck outta here. stop equating fiscal and social issues. Biden might be fiscally conservative, but no 'social conservative' even pretends trans rights are a problem. But I know, we're not people.
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Hey now, you seem to be putting words in my mouth kid. Where I'm from biden would be part of the second most "right wing" party. That's basically what I'm saying. There's nuances to politicians. There's also left wing politicians I dislike because of certain stances they have while I support their general party agenda.

Trans rights sure as shit are an issue in europe as well but as far as I can read the room, the people fighting the good fight in Switzerland are not facing a ton of opposition from right wing bigots, but I could be wrong since I'm not one of the fighters. There's even an LGBTQplus section of the right wing party here that are currently fighting for equal rights for everyone.

Now to clarify, I'm not mad and I appreciate your comment. But I would also appreciate if you don't think of me as someone who pretends you don't exist. Because I'm not, because that would be deplorable.
 
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CountAntonio

CountAntonio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,702
BigEvilTurtle said:
What conversation is to be had? That people who hold incredibly destructive, ignorant and hateful world views and values can be demarcated by their temperament and veneer of civility?
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They are also half of this country. I don't disagree with you and I don't think it's anyone personal responsibility to do it but I support those who try cause there is way too many on the other side to completely disregard. These last two elections have been too close.
 
The Adder

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,088
Setting aside Trump's loons, there are still very few moderate conservatives in the Republican party. Hell, actual conservative ideology barely exists in America anymore. The people who pull their foot off the gas or occasionally pump the breaks when it comes to progress. Those people are the bulk of the swing voter/non-voters in the US. The Republican party is regressive. They don't want to take progress and change slow, they want things to revert to an earlier point in time.

The two parties of the USA consist of

Democrats - A coalition of radical progressives, moderate progressives, and moderate conservatives.

Republicans - A coalition of moderate regressives and radical regressives.

EDIT: This is also why the Democratic party is constantly trying to tear itself apart.
 
Nepenthe

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,676
One issue with trying to make distinctions is that the divisions don't visibly bare out in practicality. There seems to be absolutely no prominent attempt to get a handle on the Republican party from these moderate/compassionate conservatives, so it is hard not to say they are effectively complicit in the party making this hard turn into fascism.

You all should've been out in the streets with us this summer. Where are y'all? What are y'all doing?
 
Conciliator

Conciliator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,123
There is a difference, but at the end of the day we all saw who Trump was, we all saw what he advocated for, and anyone who's paying attention and being honest understands that the Trump campaign and administration was a product of years and years of right-wing media dog whistling and the policies and talking points of the GOP over the last 60 years. All Trump did was start saying the quiet parts out loud. He succeeded in creating this cult in the right-wing ecosphere because he just acted like a big strong auth daddy while saying more directly the stuff than 98% of the American right-wing have been saying with a wink and nudge for decades.

So if you're like "Well I'm just a traditionalist that likes low taxes and I believe in the free market," fine. But if you're still supporting Trump and the modern GOP and you want to act like that has nothing to do with racism, with xenophobia, with White Christian hierarchy, with macho authoritarian posturing, with cruelty towards anyone who's not a "real American", with disdain for democratic institutions...then you're willfully ignorant or you're lying to me.

If so-called principled conservatives want to turn a new leaf in this country, start fresh, whatever, fine...but we need to be honest about what has animated the Trump movement and the modern GOP in general, and where we would be headed if the Trump/GOP coalition actually got to do everything they wanted to do.
 
Twister

Twister

Member
Feb 11, 2019
5,073
I completely agree. It's a bit disheartening on this forum to see everyone equate the term "Republican" with racists who hate everyone. While there are certainly many who fit that bill, I have right-leaning moderate family members who still agree with me that there is a problem with systemic racism, that all people deserve a right to marry, live without discrimination, that the coronavirus is real and needs to be taken seriously, etc.
It's easy to just paint an entire group as being a certain way, but there are legitimate arguments to be had when it's not human rights that are being politicized and about actual politics. My state's governor is a Republican and has done a pretty great job handling the virus compared to most state's responses and has extremely high approval ratings even with Democrats in an extremely blue state. It's counter-productive to just write off every right-leaning person as a racist or homophobe before listening to what their views actual are. If they are spewing hatred, then yes, fuck them, and if they support Trump, then fuck them. But I don't support the idea that they are all terrible people.
 
chezzymann

chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
The main legitimate conservative view imo is when you believe in capitalism and 'free market', I personally think that system is flawed but if you're economically conservative then i dont think you're a bigot. You probably are if you're socially conservative though.
 
EntelechyFuff

EntelechyFuff

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Nov 19, 2019
10,140
Agree with the OP here. There is a difference that is more significant than mask on/off rhetoric.

We got Neil Gorsuch of all people bailing this country's ass out on the Supreme court right now. Dubya's judicial appointees have also played a crucial role in slapping down some of the most heinous attempts by the Trump admin to fuck our country. John McCain saved Obamacare.

I have never voted Republican in my life, and never will. But I can still acknowledge there's a difference between "normal republicans" and Trump republicans that goes well beyond the rhetorical.
 
Heshinsi

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,091
Aurongel said:
Her remark is transparent in that it's coming from an extremely racist/xenophobic place and McCain rebukes it by specifically highlighting two very high level characteristics that she shares in common with Obama to connect the two at least on some very high level. It's the simplest read of that exchange that there is so if you still think that there's some underlying racism in McCain's wording then the burden of proof is on you to show what he said that directly demonstrates that. Occam's Razor, etc.

If McCain wanted to dogwhistle to this woman and anyone listening (as Trump and many other Republicans have) then he would not have been as direct as he was with shutting her down. He would have given one of those wishy-washy Trumpian answers like "I don't know, but something's suspicious there. He could be hiding something, I don't know" to stoke xenophobic paranoia while hiding behind the cheap veneer of plausible deniability.
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You do realise this is the same John McCain who had a decades long history of speaking out of both sides of his mouth right?

This is the same guy whose media campaign would consistently run attack ads against Obama where they would darken his skin tone. The same two faced liar that would tell one group how the confederate flag was a symbol of hate, and then go to the next group and state how it was a symbol of heritage, and then when called out say that he did it for political self-preservation. This is Mr "Bomb-Bomb-Bomb Iran". The guy who referred to Vietnamese people as gooks. The man who help enable Bush Sr to veto a human rights act. The individual who opposed the creation of Martin Luther King Jr Day. Mr "I put women's health in scare quotes", and "I would nominate judges who would be pro life". A guy who has always been in favour of repealing Roe v Wade, to the point where when Romney accused him of his usual two face nature, vehemently denied that his misogyny could waver one bit.

So no, how about you tell me why I shouldn't take at face value what this two faced, war mongering, bigoted, sack of shit meant when he took the mic from that woman.
 
Reym

Reym

Member
Jul 15, 2019
2,655
It's worth noting, I think, that the current Republican party is not really conservative, they're authoritarian. They're happy to spend and have the government interfere as long as it nets them more money and power. This is why you have people flying the don't tread on me flag right next to thin blue line flags. This was the segment that Trump spoke to and there's a LOT of them.

I think I'd place Greg Doucette (not that one) in the category of "reasonable conservatives". Vocally conservative in a fiscal sense, but socially pretty liberal. Was a registered R who left the party to go unaffiliated and is currently voting straight D even though he doesn't really agree with Democrats - he even posted his ballot to prove it - because he thinks the Republican party has become too dangerous. Openly against racist policies and police brutality and jumped on board with BLM - his mega-thread of all the examples of police brutality throughout the protests is chilling. I don't agree with a lot of his takes on things, but I find him pretty reasonable. If the Republican party were full of more people like him we'd be in a MUCH better place.

...problem is, he's the only one I can say that about. The "conservative" label has been overrun by fascists. It may be too tainted to survive.
 
Parch

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
The Adder said:
The two parties of the USA consist of
Democrats - A coalition of radical progressives, moderate progressives, and moderate conservatives.
Republicans - A coalition of moderate regressives and radical regressives.
EDIT: This is also why the Democratic party is constantly trying to tear itself apart.
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theytookourjobz said:
Biden and Harris are conservatives. The Republican Party is not conservative, they're just literal villains.
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This how the world sees the US. The US call Democrats "liberal", but most Americans are unfamiliar with world politics and "real" liberal parties. The US is conservative. There are extreme versions of conservative, but that doesn't make everybody else liberal. The US is conservative. Almost all of it.
 
Khanimus

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,165
Greater Vancouver
And so what's the difference when they vote against the rights of marginalized groups anyway? Because they dehumanize you without frothing and screaming, that makes them better?

Fuck em.
 
Rydeen

Rydeen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,499
Seattle, WA.
There's a lot of Conservative Republicans that worked in the Reagan and both Bushes administrations that have been vocally opposed to Trump since day 1 and were very open about voting for Biden this election, see Bill Kristol.

But as the child of two people who reluctantly voted for Trump, Conservative Christians are stuck on abortion law, they will never vote Dem as long as Federal abortion rights are part of the debate, it's just not happening regardless of how awful a candidate is on the R-side.
 
The Lord of Cereal

The Lord of Cereal

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Jan 9, 2020
9,619
If they voted Trump, they're all the same. You don't vote for a transphobic sexual predator who refuses to denounce white supremacy without supporting or being okay with one of those things.

And for those who don't believe that those are true, they're just fucking idiots then that refuse to accept reality.
 
Ripcord

Ripcord

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,777
SpaceCrystal said:
Do you think that's what we should be doing as a whole?
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Yes. I think Democrats and genuine moderate Republicans should unify and form a new party because they have more in common than they do with the respective fringe groups on either side.

The new party will never lose and also won't have to stress trying to appeal to, or be held accountable by the minority voices of their parties.
 
Blah

Blah

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,602
Everytime I see this thread again it reminds me how fucking stupid it is and how many caveats and hoops we'd need to jump through to placate Republican assholes in the name of civility. It's absurd.
 
Conciliator

Conciliator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,123
Heshinsi said:
You do realise this is the same John McCain who had a decades long history of speaking out of both sides of his mouth right?

This is the same guy whose media campaign would consistently run attack ads against Obama where they would darken his skin tone. The same two faced liar that would tell one group how the confederate flag was a symbol of hate, and then go to the next group and state how it was a symbol of heritage, and then when called out say that he did it for political self-preservation. This is Mr "Bomb-Bomb-Bomb Iran". The guy who referred to Vietnamese people as gooks. The man who help enable Bush Sr to veto a human rights act. The individual who opposed the creation of Martin Luther King Jr Day. Mr "I put women's health in scare quotes", and "I would nominate judges who would be pro life". A guy who has always been in favour of repealing Roe v Wade, to the point where when Romney accused him of his usual two face nature, vehemently denied that his misogyny could waver one bit.

So no, how about you tell me why I shouldn't take at face value what this two faced, war mongering, bigoted, sack of shit meant when he took the mic from that woman.
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Yes, this is an example of what I'm talking about. In that moment McCain DID publically disavow a kind of blatant racism, but all that lady was doing was saying out loud what the GOP and right-wing media machine had been implying that she should feel for years. Which is not to say that she's not responsible for her own racism, of course, but just that in that moment, that old lady had a better bead on what was animating the American right against Obama than McCain did.

So yeah, if moderate conservatives and such want to separate themselves from the Trump movement, fine, just don't expect me to act like that racist old lady at the McCain town hall came out of nowhere and no-one can imagine why she thought that would be an appropriate thing to say at that venue. It's abundantly clear why she thought that.
 
EVIL

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
So shitty people that are polite = not one of the bad ones? ooookay..
 
Huey

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,180
I agree this makes sense in theory, OP, but the reality is that almost all those who identified republican voted Trump in the last election ie. the Lincoln project didn't work. Regardless of how much someone feels they "held their nose" voting for him, a vote is an endorsement of his policies over the past 4 years.

And truly, fuck anyone who can look at the past 4 years and approve of any of it.
 
More_Badass

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,622
Devin said:
The difference is just how openly they show their bigotry.
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Yup, my dad's a whole-hearted bootstraps-conservative, but he would never go to a Trump rally or wear a MAGA hat. His racism and bigotry is the passive-aggressive "logic and statistics" type, instead of the ranting-in-the supermarket type. The type that insists on teaching his children not to be racist and to be wary of racism (we're Puerto Rican) but scoffs at the notion of systemic racism.
 
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