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laoni

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,725
I dread the day when they announce, "We've definitively cured cancer, but it's a couple years off before it's available for the broader public" and then a bunch of unfortunate people die of cancer in the meantime.

So, there are programs where people who would die without treatment can apply to drug companies on compassionate grounds to receive access to drugs they wouldn't be otherwise able to have, whether it's they haven't been cleared for broad use or they can't afford it, or it isn't available in their country, or if the drug is working for them but the trial they're on doesn't have more doses available. (This was my backup option if I wasn't accepted into the clinical trial that saved my ass). So if they were at the point of them announcing it would only be available to the broader public in a few years, there would definitely be the ability for people to request this on compassionate grounds, if not already had many participating in the Stage II and III clinical trials this drug would be likely in
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Remember a bit of skepticism is always healthy with science news
b0f85e945bc1bcd13decdc133d4eb856.jpg

source

Yup although I'm always hopeful
 

Papa Satanás

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
863
no
I'd love to get my hopes up, but this is so early stage.

And yeah, there have been some amazing improvements to treatments. So much that the clinic I work for has had to bring in more staff/physicians over the years just to keep up with the follow-ups since patients are living longer and longer. It's great.
 

Chairman Yang

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
I fully believe there will never be a cure. An annual treatment that works almost 100% is what I honestly see the best outcome being. Until we stop having for profit companies developing drugs.
A for-profit company would make insane profits by developing a cure and immediately snatch all the business away from companies that only give treatment. Why would they hold back to protect the profits of other companies?
 
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JediTimeBoy

JediTimeBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,810
From another source (Daily Telegraph):

"Researchers at Cardiff University were analysing blood from a bank in Wales, looking for immune cells that could fight bacteria, when they found an entirely new type of T-cell.

That new immune cell carries a never-before-seen receptor which acts like a grappling hook, latching on to most human cancers, while ignoring healthy cells.

In laboratory studies, immune cells equipped with the new receptor were shown to kill lung, skin, blood, colon, breast, bone, prostate, ovarian, kidney and cervical cancer.
"

...

""This was a serendipitous finding, nobody knew this cell existed," Prof Sewell told The Telegraph. "

Full story via the link:

 

RedOnePunch

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,628
So, there are programs where people who would die without treatment can apply to drug companies on compassionate grounds to receive access to drugs they wouldn't be otherwise able to have, whether it's they haven't been cleared for broad use or they can't afford it, or it isn't available in their country, or if the drug is working for them but the trial they're on doesn't have more doses available. (This was my backup option if I wasn't accepted into the clinical trial that saved my ass). So if they were at the point of them announcing it would only be available to the broader public in a few years, there would definitely be the ability for people to request this on compassionate grounds, if not already had many participating in the Stage II and III clinical trials this drug would be likely in

Yes there is a lot more leeway with some treatments because of the state of the patient. Even some that are licensed and on the market. The FDA is being more flexible.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
I swear BBC has run a "cure for cancer" story at least once a month for the past ten years.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,388
Yup. A end all cure like this would never see light of day so long as big pharma exists
Why in the world would they do that? Even if this cured someone's cancer, people would still get cancer. An old co-worker of mine got into human trials several years ago of one of the immunotherapy treatments. Before that, he was looking at being charged $15,000/month. How much money do you think an all in one immunotherapy treatment would bring in?
 

Maligna

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,854
Canada
So, there are programs where people who would die without treatment can apply to drug companies on compassionate grounds to receive access to drugs they wouldn't be otherwise able to have, whether it's they haven't been cleared for broad use or they can't afford it, or it isn't available in their country, or if the drug is working for them but the trial they're on doesn't have more doses available. (This was my backup option if I wasn't accepted into the clinical trial that saved my ass). So if they were at the point of them announcing it would only be available to the broader public in a few years, there would definitely be the ability for people to request this on compassionate grounds, if not already had many participating in the Stage II and III clinical trials this drug would be likely in

Oh, nice!

Good to know. That's a bit of piece of mind.
 

FrakEarth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,300
Liverpool, UK
It sounds really promising, I wish it could be sped along with the click of someone's fingers.

I have three cats, two of whom I've had since kittens, and one of them has a couple of tumors that we have been told are pretty much untreatable. We've been giving him palliative meds, but he has lost so much weight and it's so sad to see - I want him to be with me forever. He's so little but one of the tumors is the size of an orange. The vet believes one is attached to his liver and another to his intestinal system, and explained the inoperable nature of these growths to me in a way that makes sense to me now, but I hadn't considered at the time. It is a kind of growing tissue. It's out of control expansion and growth is fuelled the same way growth is fuelled by any other organ or part of your body. Its fed by hormones and nutrients and oxygen in the blood. The liver is a particularly tough one because of its many blood vessels and bile ducts, by the time its found its usually spread as is the case here, its not easy to just cut it away. I have to wonder whether even treatment like this would wholly eradicate such growths or just help to halt their spread... I mean maybe it would, I'm not particularly scientifically minded so I don't know -- if only the bad cells can be targeted maybe the body can recover and grow healthy ones in their place? But I imagine there will always be a level of disease there's no coming back from. I have a visit at the vet tomorrow to check on him, and I have a feeling we're going to have to consider his quality of life soon, he's deteriorated so much :(

Of course, I've lost family members too. Statistically we all will and do. It's just horrendous, hard on all of its victims, the carrier of the disease and the family. Every shred of hope and scientific breakthrough like this has to be embraced.
 

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
The reason we'll never see a cure for cancer is because cancer is fundamentally incurable. That would be like trying to cure entropy.

Your body develops cancer in thousands of cells every day. It's just pretty good about early detection and removal of cancer cells.

Stop trying to make this about a stupid conspiracy theory. Big pharma is evil but they're not hiding a cure for cancer in a vault somewhere.
 

laoni

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,725
Oh, nice!

Good to know. That's a bit of piece of mind.

Yeah, and, in my experience (From myself and from the others I lived with in my transplant specific accomodation), doctors will fight like hell to make it happen. My haematologist the first time I relapsed contacted a clinical trial for a drug called brentuximab (which was not on Australia's government funded drug schedule yet) to have the wheels in motion to get me access to that drug should the normal chemo not work. I was lucky the clinical trial opened up about 2 days before they knew I needed it, but my addition to the trial wasn't a shoe-in, so my doctors were making arrangements to get the drug anyways if I wasn't accepted. Once I was on the trial, the trial doctors were adamant if I needed more doses, they'd get them from the company. Another person in the place I was staying got their drugs from the US (They weren't available here), and had their doctor fight for permission to use them, and then subsequently, fight for the drug to go on our funded drug schedule, and were successful.

If you need the drug, they'll do their best to get it for you.
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
Thanks for the nice response.
I'll never put anything past big industry.

Sure. But that also doesn't mean you need to believe conspiracy theories while some of the richest people in the world keep dying from cancer left and right, and unless a single lab somehow comes up with completely magic cure, the scientific progress towards disease cures is literally unstoppable unless you're the Secret Master of All Nations or some dumb shit like that.
 

btags

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,100
Gaithersburg MD
So I am a grad student doing work in tumor immunology. While I am not an expert by any means, and I want to stress that, I am not super hyped about this or anything. It sounds like it could be a variant of Car T cells that is more widely applicable to multiple cancer types rather than just one.

This is good, but at the same time, as with normal CAR T cells tumors can evolve to not express the given antigen that these engineers t cells target, so recurrence could always be a problem. Secondly, as stated in some of the snippets people have posted here, transferred t cells are really unsuccessful in treating solid tumors so far because very few of the infused t cells actually get into the tumor and those that do face a whole host of challenges that suppress their anti tumor function, so there is still a long way to go in using these therapies.

Lastly, I kind of think the way that the way the discovery is described is kind of dumb. We know that there are antigens common to multiple tumor types, we know t cells basically have huge variety in the types of targets they recognize, so what they observed doesn't seem to crazy. The real question is even if this cells can recognize tumor cells, can they reduce tumor burden and prevent recurrence, especially in the case of solid tumors, and at this point the answer is no.
 
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Papa Satanás

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
863
no
lmao these guys in here with the Big Pharma conspiracy shit

Y'all really think a drug company would A) sit on that bank and B) not get found out and fucking destroyed
 
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JediTimeBoy

JediTimeBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,810
So I am a grad student doing work in tumor immunology. While I am not an expert by any means, and I want to stress that, I am not super hyped about this or anything. It sounds like it could be a variant of Car T cells that is more widely applicable to multiple cancer types rather than just one.

This is good, but at the same time, as with normal CAR T cells tumors can evolve to not express the given antigen that these engineers t cells target, so recurrence could always be a problem. Secondly, as stated in some of the snippets people have posted here, transferred t cells are really unsuccessful in treating solid tumors so far because very few of the infused t cells actually get into the tumor and those that do face a whole host of challenges that suppress their anti tumor function, so there is still a long way to go in using these therapies.

Lastly, I kind of think the way that the way the discovery is described is kind of dumb. We know that there are antigens common to multiple tumor types, we know t cells basically have huge variety in the types of targets they recognize, so what they observed doesn't seem to crazy. The real question is even if this cells can recognize tumor cells, can they reduce tumor burden and prevent recurrence, especially in the case of solid tumors, and at this point the answer is no.

Do you mean like how a strain of virus can evolve and become resistant to antibiotics?
 

btags

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,100
Gaithersburg MD
Do you mean like how a strain of virus can evolve and become resistant to antibiotics?
Pretty much. If you think of it as survival of the fittest, tumor cells that do not express mr-1 (or have a mutated form that looks different than the normal mr-1) or whatever it is in the patient will then have a survival advantage against other tumor cells when this therapy is used so they will grow out and become the recurrent tumor.
 
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JediTimeBoy

JediTimeBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,810
Pretty much. If you think of it as survival of the fittest, tumor cells that do not express mr-1 (or have a mutated form that looks different than the normal mr-1) or whatever it is in the patient will then have a survival advantage against other tumor cells when this therapy is used so they will grow out and become the recurrent tumor.

That makes sense, thank you for the explanation.
 

Soph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,503
Interesting, could prove very useful for cancer that is spread through the arteries and lymph nodes, don't see it being all that hot for lumps itself.

Now when are we finally going to procure a cannabinoid cure leading to cancer cell apoptosis? It's a far more promising avenue of oncology research.
 

madgorillaz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
444
Thanks for this. I'm reading the paper now and the rigor displayed here is very competent and thorough.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,565
You don't really appreciate just how awful scientific reporting is until it's about a field you've worked in. (But it's also really hard to break down and generalize, I've learned.) Let me apologize in advance.

Anyway, this is not a new type of T cell. T cells have a receptor called a 'T cell receptor', or TCR. Usually, these TCRs recognize broken down fragments of proteins, which triggers an immune response. One such response is killing whatever cell that activated it. The great thing about TCRs is that they are extremely diverse, giving your immune system the ability to handle almost any threat, even if it's something it has never seen before. The benefit of transplanting in T cells that have been engineered to target a disease is that T cells can persist in a "memory" form and then grow up again if that same threat appears again, giving you protection over time. (Think of how vaccines "prime" your immune system so that your body is able to immediately respond to the real threat later.)

Usually, immunotherapy research starts with finding an attractive target. For example, maybe some cancers express a lot more of a certain protein compared to healthy cells, or they have the same protein in a mutated form. However, they seem to have found a TCR that recognizes some unknown target that was present on the cancer cells they used (across different cancer types) but left normal cells alone. TCRs are very specific. But there is also the issue of a TCR having the potential to be cross-reactive with normal cells that you have yet to test. (This could be tissue types you have not accounted for, or people with different versions of proteins due to having different versions of genes. Immunotherapies tend to be developed with majority populations in mind.)

What could be interesting about the TCRs they have found is that they do not depend on the "classical" recognition mechanism. Something I left out is that a TCR generally cannot recognize a protein that has not first been "processed" into its constituent parts and presented by the target cell (on its surface) to the T cell. This adds another layer of specificity that means that certain TCRs will only work in certain people. This specificity (if you read about how "HLA" works) is the basis of transplant rejection and graft versus host disease. What the authors hope is a class of T cell that won't be limited to certain populations. (Pan-cancer TCRs are already a goal, so that's not anything particularly "new".)

This is not remotely close to testing in people. First, they don't even know what their TCR is truly targeting. Second, good data in mouse or in cell cultures does not automatically equal a good therapy in people. We have had very promising looking TCRs that were bunk in practice. We have had TCRs that more or less cured two patients, but had no response in the rest without any clear reason why. Cancers have many different strategies to subvert or avoid immune surveillance; you can wipe out the majority of cells with a protein you're targeting, and then a small percentage without it (that therefore survived) can grow out that will be resistant to that same therapy. Liquid tumors (leukemias) are easy to deal with; solid tumors require T cells to infiltrate into an environment where they can't be effective. That's a huge issue that remains to be figured out. There is a lot of safety testing that needs to be done since the consequences can be fatal. (CAR-T cell therapy, especially, has a huge concern with neurotoxicity.) The real truth is that we don't really know what to expect going into a lot of these trials, though due diligence is critical.

(I genuinely tried to keep this as simple, concise, and straight-forward as possible, but neither cancer nor the immune system are any of those things. Oops.)
 
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CHC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,249
I'm skeptical. It seems ever year there is some revolutionary treatment and nothing ever comes of it.

Trying having lung cancer in the 80s vs having lung cancer today and tell me nothing is different

It's enormously different. People still die, they always will, but the quality and duration of life, even with terminal cancers, has increased massively.

Still though, I will admit it's not like this article is highlighting something more miraculous than any of the other recent projects in cancer research. I've only taken one grad class in immuno so not an expert at all, but a few people above have given very sound reasoning why this (like everything else) won't be a silver bullet therapy. Doesn't mean the findings won't trickle down to help some small subset of patients, which is still meaningful.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
Thanks for the nice response.
I'll never put anything past big industry.
Why in the world would they do that? Even if this cured someone's cancer, people would still get cancer. An old co-worker of mine got into human trials several years ago of one of the immunotherapy treatments. Before that, he was looking at being charged $15,000/month. How much money do you think an all in one immunotherapy treatment would bring in?

Everyone crying about big pharma, what about big insurance? Won't they just jump on the best cure/treatment/cheapest?

If this pans out, it'll be cheaper than current treatments and whoever owns the treatment will get all the money. Literally no reason to hide it.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,388
Everyone crying about big pharma, what about big insurance? Won't they just jump on the best cure/treatment/cheapest?

If this pans out, it'll be cheaper than current treatments and whoever owns the treatment will get all the money. Literally no reason to hide it.
Yeah. Better treatment, and room to undercut prices if they want. Could absolutely wreck the competition.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,570
The reason we'll never see a cure for cancer is because cancer is fundamentally incurable. That would be like trying to cure entropy.

Your body develops cancer in thousands of cells every day. It's just pretty good about early detection and removal of cancer cells.

Stop trying to make this about a stupid conspiracy theory. Big pharma is evil but they're not hiding a cure for cancer in a vault somewhere.
This isn't true. Fundementally curing a disease means stopping a single instance of it. The fact that you can get another case of cancer after the original form is gone doesn't mean the original case wasn't cured. We can already cure many types of cancer (a few can even be cured very reliably) since curing cancer essentially just means removing all existing cancer cells in the body. Cancers that are considered hard to cure are ones that can reemerge if even a few tumor cells survive, and whose tumor cells can spread across the body and then stay dormant for long periods of time until coming back years later