My best guess would be that a lot of Western people currently creating media had their first contact with anime or even Japan with Ghost in the Shell (1995).
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I'm writing a novel with a colorful cast of characters in race, gender and sexuality. What are some tropes I should avoid ?
- Thread starter CaptainKashup
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My best guess would be that a lot of Western people currently creating media had their first contact with anime or even Japan with Ghost in the Shell (1995).
Came in to echo the oversexualization of non-hetero characters.
I'm a polyamorous pansexual and I definitely do not sexualize every person I come across nor do I need to be constantly having sexual experiences with a variety of individuals. I am also not "confused" about who I "really want" to be with -- most bi/pan tropes in media seem to lean into the idea that we must always feel conflicted in our choice of partners or feel some inevitable sense of loss if we have to commit to just one of them.
It's possible to be a sex-positive, polyamorous pansexual, while also being, say, an introverted autistic woman who isn't constantly sleeping around because (among other things) there aren't many folks I even want to voluntarily make eye contact with, let alone give them access to my emotional labor or my flesh vessel.
I'm a polyamorous pansexual and I definitely do not sexualize every person I come across nor do I need to be constantly having sexual experiences with a variety of individuals. I am also not "confused" about who I "really want" to be with -- most bi/pan tropes in media seem to lean into the idea that we must always feel conflicted in our choice of partners or feel some inevitable sense of loss if we have to commit to just one of them.
It's possible to be a sex-positive, polyamorous pansexual, while also being, say, an introverted autistic woman who isn't constantly sleeping around because (among other things) there aren't many folks I even want to voluntarily make eye contact with, let alone give them access to my emotional labor or my flesh vessel.
No "consideration" involved: we are mostly white, yes. Spain and Portugal are somewhat more diverse ethnically than other parts of Europe, due to proximity to Africa and the Strait of Gibraltar being a highly desirable strategic locations and thus having been colonized at one point or another by different civilizations, but we are still primarily Caucasian.
Uhhh... these are not mutually exclusive terms.
White Latin Americans - Wikipedia
A painful breakup forced by social or institutional homophobia, insensitive portrayals of sex related diseases, one member of the couple caving to internalized homophobia and blowing up the relationship, exaggerated drama hinging on personalities defined by stereotypical toxic gay behaviors like extreme promiscuity and drug abuse, gay bashing, etc.
All of these things can be present in worthwhile stories. In fact, some of my favorite examples of fiction with prominent gay representation have tragic elements (Call Me By Your Name -- goddammit, Armie --, Moonlight, Pose, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, the Wicked books, etc.).
But gay tragedy is very overrepresented in entertainment. It's important to show our struggles, but it's also important to show aspirational experiences where gay people are well adjusted and happy.
As a kid, the main messages I got from entertainment were along the lines of, "you don't exist," "you don't matter," "you're abnormal," "you're evil," "you're a joke," "you're probably doomed to hardship and tragedy."
make sure you have a variety in side characters and villains as well, to the point where negative traits for one of your characters can't (or would hard to) be taken as a generalization against X or Y
whats the concept of your novel btw? gonna start on my first one soon, working on the outline. shout out to brandon sanderson's lecture series on youtube
whats the concept of your novel btw? gonna start on my first one soon, working on the outline. shout out to brandon sanderson's lecture series on youtube
- Don't kill off the black folks or the LGBTQ folks
- Avoid racist stereotypes
- Avoid fetishization of women and minorities
Other than that... yeah, what others have said; this is too broad to be really crowdsourced effectively.
- Avoid racist stereotypes
- Avoid fetishization of women and minorities
Other than that... yeah, what others have said; this is too broad to be really crowdsourced effectively.
Agreed.
Do you mean Hispanic? Latinos are generally understood to refer to people of Latin American heritage (someone correct me if I'm wrong, of course). And both Latinos and Hispanics can also be white, anyway. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Make sure none of them are characterized solely around their race, gender, or sexuality.
Also make sure they can all pass the sandwich test. If you can't picture the character casually making a sandwich, they need more work.
Also make sure they can all pass the sandwich test. If you can't picture the character casually making a sandwich, they need more work.
You are not going to be able to avoid all the harmful tropes, not without feeling somewhat sterile at times.
Just try to minimize them and at least be aware of them.
One HUUUUUUUUUGE thing: if your characters sexuality or status is not important or salient, it is okay to just not mention it until it does become so. It may be fine once or twice, but not when you have a large queer cast.
Just try to minimize them and at least be aware of them.
One HUUUUUUUUUGE thing: if your characters sexuality or status is not important or salient, it is okay to just not mention it until it does become so. It may be fine once or twice, but not when you have a large queer cast.
Don't make mental health an excuse for evil characters.
Don't make mental health the defining characteristic of someone.
But also don't make mental health invisible.
Don't make mental health the defining characteristic of someone.
But also don't make mental health invisible.
This is a good one. Your villain can be clinically depressed, but like, that does not have to be the reason they want to end the world.
There's no such thing as "the surgery". There are a dozen different surgeries that someone might to choose to get, it's not a magical "one and done" sorta thing. Also, they might not want surgery at all. Same with HRT.
And while we're talking HRT, people taking testosterone don't turn into over-the-top raging assholes.
I think it depends on whether this is a novel set in reality/close enough, or a fantasy/science fiction thing.
I, for one, am a big fan of fantasy and sci-fi that doesn't let itself be tied too closely to real-world hatreds and stereotypes and imagines things like a society where sexual expression and gender and race are not so much a thing to be killed over, harmed, discriminated against, etc.
I, for one, am a big fan of fantasy and sci-fi that doesn't let itself be tied too closely to real-world hatreds and stereotypes and imagines things like a society where sexual expression and gender and race are not so much a thing to be killed over, harmed, discriminated against, etc.
Not only that, but there's barely any reason to describe people beyond basic important attributes. Going into extensive details about people's face shape and eye color is cringry. Unless it important, let people just imagine what they want.
Always a good idea to have more than one type of the same representation in your cast. People do not care that much if your villain is bisexual if you have multiple characters that are bisexual, to varying different kinds of character archetypes. Same goes for race and such. As long as one kind of race/sexuality isnt pidgeonholed to a single rep, it makes it a lot less likely to feel like it's playing into tropes by accident.
Make certain to describe all characters of colour (ESPECIALLY women) with food analogies e.g. her chocolate skin accentuated her coffee eyes and her steak-like hair
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Sir, this is a list of identities, not a cast summary.
Look, go about it from the other direction. Make actual character summaries, then add their identities. Use their identities to edit the summaries if need be, and make sure within your outline, people make choices in accordance to who they are in your summary - not necessarily their identity. If they must make a choice that has to do with their identity, exercise additional caution.
But people are also not their identity, and will make totally different choices.
Also, if this is any kind of fantasy, think twice about whether or not you want the black person to have lightning abilities.
Two things. If you put a Latin American character in your work, there are more places than Mexico, Puerto Rico or Cuba. Also unless they just got to (presumably) the English speaking setting, we can speak in proper, non accented English and don't need to throw in a Spanish word every fifth word to remind the reader were from Latin America or have a Latin American background
OP, it might sound counter-intuitive, but I'd avoid using the term "Latinx", or at least not have your characters use it. It's popular with woke corporations and activists online, but largely unheard-of amongst the people it purports to describe (and divisive at best amongst those who have heard of it).
This is something I'm curious about. Cause generally the reason people say this is because typically stories will introduce said characters only to then kill them off. Namely for the latter course introducing a LGBTQ couple only to kill one off and end in a tragedy cause of some general homophobic idea that those relationships can only end in tragedy.
But the advice seems to be lacking any nuance or context as to why stories fail when they do those.
If a writer does their job right and these characters aren't falling into sterotypes nor harmful tropes, then I don't think a character being able to die should be determined by external factors.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
It's kind of more useful to think of it as an overly played stereotype that happens to also be rooted in social issues.
For example, is it technically possible to have a "Save helpless princess from an evil dragon whose keeping her locked up in a tower" story that is well written with nuanced characterization? Sure, I guess, if you really work at it but that is itself such an overplayed storyline that it's more worth just going out and doing something else.
I can understand that, but the phrasing makes it imply that no black character or LGBTQ character should ever die in any story.
Obviously people are apprehensive cause those characters tend to have a un-porpotionally higher death count due to well usually homophobic or racist reasons.
It feels like an over-correction rather than tackling the root of the issue.
We also don't live in a separate reality where every house is made with old mexican architecture and every day is día de muertos , avoid ponchos and sombreros.
And avoid giving them an "abuelita" to care about.
As a matter of fact, not all of us are mexican
The sci-fi horror movie Event Horizon basically makes fun of this trope because you're certain Cooper he's going to die so many times, but he keeps saving his ass.
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I've heard of people complaining about this notion - notably Sarah Z said in this twitter thread what she thinks the limits of bury the gays are and how some people are unreasonable about it - but honestly, people who genuinely think gay and black people should never, ever die are an extreme minority. I would wager most would agree that death is a significant tool for any story to employ and one that can be employed fairly.
But the point is your mind shouldn't go there unless it has really, really good reason to. If you find your story is killing an LGBT character or black character or using any kind of minority stereotype, you need to think about how necessary that story beat is, whether it's truly worth it for the story, and consider the multitudinous alternative ways the story could go and if they wouldn't be better. Which they have a decent shot of being because no matter how well written it is, if you're playing into a cliche then chances are going for a non-cliche story beat is better.
Playing stereotypes straight is almost never good storytelling, so as a rule avoid it.
Ultimately I think your second paragraph is basically the nuance and context I was talking about.
To be honest when I write stories I rarely kill off (named) characters cause I think stories for characters continuing can be more interesting then ending all that potential. But at the same time yeah, death, when used right, is a powerful too.
I do think stuff like GoT (the show more so) did sort of foster the culture of killing just for the sake of killing.
Absolutely not. This is a problem that's been around for literally decades, back before GoT was even written as a book series. This is because the ultimate root of these tropes isn't lazy writing, it's our culture, and our culture has obviously been historically very homophobic, racist, sexist, transphobic, so our stories reflect that by creating these tropes that are harmful, and they've been around a long, long time.
Disagree if you want about how to go about addressing these tropes, argue whichever you want to be exceptions, but under no circumstances try to disguise the actual history of this for what it is.
Make sure your characters aren't a collection of tropes and stereotypes and instead vehicles to explore your main character's thoughts and feelings as well as your themes and messages overall. Don't worry yourself over trying to please everyone and make characters in a way that interests you. You seem to be a good person who cares about how people are represented, so I'm sure your work will reflect that naturally.
Oh I understand that, I'm just saying stories being so heavily reliant of killing characters in general has become a more recent trend. The issue of stories overwhelmingly killing off minority characters has always been a problem, even before. But I think it's been made worse by people thinking death is the only way to increase the stakes of a story.
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OP
OP
That's not really fair to say.
Don't worry, I'm writing my characters as people first. I only stated their identities because I feel like I might just go too far in explaining them and just spoil my entire story.
Anyway, this thread actually makes me pretty confident in how I'm currently handling my characters.
I'd like to add that we don't say "Dios mio!" every five minutes (looking at you "50 Shades of Grey").
Or that we'll shift to cursing in Spanish when we're pissed (I only do that when I ran out of English curse words to say 🤣).
to add on to this...not everyone must be friends to each other....some people are just acquintance. You know a person by their first name, do a thing with that person, say 'bye' to that person and never need to see that person again.
Not everyone needs to be friends with each other.
Oh yeah, you forgot we are perfectly capable of saying "Thank you" and not just "Gracias"
Clearly a thread made in well-meaning and tbh more writers should actively ask these kinds of questions but I do want to echo the sentiment to just write first. You won't notice all the tropes/stereotypes on a first draft - even if you try to be 100% free of them! - and this way you can identify what subconscious biases tend to make their way to your page. Editing is essential, so just treat this as another thing to look out for when you begin that process. Secondly, and more importantly, they need to be actual characters first. Gender identity, race, et al. are just one facet of what makes them, them.
There are endless obstacles to writing that we construct for ourselves, don't let this be another thing that paralyses you.
There are endless obstacles to writing that we construct for ourselves, don't let this be another thing that paralyses you.
If you're going to be writing about mental health and suicide, make sure you research how to do it properly. This is something even many popular stories do wrong, despite the fact that science has shown that how this topic is handled in media has effects in the real world.
For example, the UK charity Samaritans has a number of guidelines both for writing literature, as well as for media reporting (which can also be applied in books). And you can find a lot more information online.
For example, the UK charity Samaritans has a number of guidelines both for writing literature, as well as for media reporting (which can also be applied in books). And you can find a lot more information online.
Sorry to hijack the thread with something that may or may not be useful, but just yesterday, I was reading an article about business advice when dealing with Mexicans (don't ask why - I'm not a businessman and I'm actually Mexican, lol). It mentioned stuff like this:
- Mexico is a very high context culture. Which means "one in which connections have developed over years of interaction and a shared understanding of expectations."
- The way in which Mexicans communicate: "Communication is less formal, less explicit and decisions are built through long-term relationships and face-to-face interactions."
- Mexicans have a very relaxed sense of time and being 10 to 30 minutes late to a meeting might be seen as normal.
- "Many foreign business people often mistake Mexican warmth and kindness as an immediate willingness to move forward with a business deal,".
- "mañana" (tomorrow) might mean another day and the promise of a follow-up appointment might not be as certain as in a Western country."
Full article:
www.worldwideerc.org
And let me tell you something. I feel attacked, lol. It's 100% spot on. So I think it might be interesting to add a bit of this... annoying Mexican ambiguity to your character? I feel like Mexican characters are often hotheaded and fearless of speaking out their mind.
- Mexico is a very high context culture. Which means "one in which connections have developed over years of interaction and a shared understanding of expectations."
- The way in which Mexicans communicate: "Communication is less formal, less explicit and decisions are built through long-term relationships and face-to-face interactions."
- Mexicans have a very relaxed sense of time and being 10 to 30 minutes late to a meeting might be seen as normal.
- "Many foreign business people often mistake Mexican warmth and kindness as an immediate willingness to move forward with a business deal,".
- "mañana" (tomorrow) might mean another day and the promise of a follow-up appointment might not be as certain as in a Western country."
Full article:
The Mexican Business Culture: What to Know About Doing Business in Mexico
www.worldwideerc.org
And let me tell you something. I feel attacked, lol. It's 100% spot on. So I think it might be interesting to add a bit of this... annoying Mexican ambiguity to your character? I feel like Mexican characters are often hotheaded and fearless of speaking out their mind.
Wait, I shouldn't use 'steak-like' as a descriptor in my novel? Shit, seems like I have some editing to do.
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You said what I wanted to say better, not everyone is Mexican just because they speak spanish, and also please, we are not stuck in 1910 all the time. (looking at the town that it's supposed to be around the 2000's(?) in Coco).
I care for my grandparents but it's not a force that affects my choices everyday.
And please, please... 5 de mayo is NOT Mexican independence day (is the Battle of Puebla in fact), it's not even a holiday on the same league like November 20th (Mexican revolution) and September 16th (Mexican independence).
I rarely curse on both Spanish and English but it's still funny to hear or read a "chingada madre" every now and then since I teached that expression to my non-Spanish speaking friends in chats.
This. Perhaps in the US the latin american population might use that term, but in Latin America, almost everyone would either look at you bad or laugh at you. Personally, as a latino, I hate that term, but that's off-topic.