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Deleted member 46804

User requested account closure
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Aug 17, 2018
4,129
that's what happens when programmers are tasked with being writers
That might have used to be true but definitely isn't the case with the modern triple A game. The issue is leadership at either the development studio or publisher getting cold feet on actually delivering a message that could potentially alienate a segment of their audience.
 

Deleted member 46804

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Aug 17, 2018
4,129
the recent statement that cyberpunk is aiming to be a work of art not a political statement gets me so frustrated with these clearly political concepts and themes being thrown aside for a backdrop with ubisoft probably being the worst offender how the fuck are you going to say liberating a post brexit london from martial law is apolitical
I'm curious to see what comes from Cyberpunk. The Witcher was very political. I'm assuming this will be the same, they just won't outright say it because they are cowardly.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,041
Most people dont care about politics tbh. Not being interested in politics is actually a very political message, however many people just dont care, and any association to it is just a meh.
Humans love the status quo of me being ok. For the mayority of the world as long as I am doing well, everything is ok to remain as is.

But most of the highly praised games ever have some form of political message- MSG, Final Fantasy etc.

I think people do like political stuff, or are intrigued by it even if they don't recognize it.

This recent blowback on "politics in my games" has only ever been about gender/sexuality stuff.
 

Desi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,210
eh, the PR statements are apolitical, the games arent.
That is always how I saw it. With movies, authors, and even fashion designers you can get them to give off the wall interviews or a breakdown, but with videogames, it feels like the PR dept runs the show. So blatantly obvious political statements are downplayed, denied, or outright removed. This is less an issue with smaller productions and it shows on both sides of the culture.
 

Deleted member 46804

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Aug 17, 2018
4,129
But most of the highly praised games ever have some form of political message- MSG, Final Fantasy etc.

I think people do like political stuff, or are intrigued by it even if they don't recognize it.

This recent blowback on "politics in my games" has only ever been about gender/sexuality stuff.
There's definitely an increasing aversion to doing anything that might offend a fascist government.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
I can make a statement about politics right now and it might be irrelevant tomorrow.

I can't imagine making a game with specific political references, hoping that in 5-6 years when it comes out, it makes any sense whatsoever. It's smarter to center themes around larger concepts which are less specific yet more likely to still be relevant in the future.

edit: Though tbh, I also think it's totally fine to use a setting with obvious political baggage and tell a non-political story in it. For example I would play a game set during World War 2 Germany but that is actually a love story.
"Politics" doesn't mean "ripped-from-the-headline current-events politics". It means sociopolitical/cultural commentary and themes
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
But most of the highly praised games ever have some form of political message- MSG, Final Fantasy etc.

I think people do like political stuff, or are intrigued by it even if they don't recognize it.

This recent blowback on "politics in my games" has only ever been about gender/sexuality stuff.

Yeap, I mean people COD is a political statement made videogame, yet some people claim is not. Most people enjoy political games as much as they look the other way or go bullocks to deny it.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
Mafia III and Wolfenstein 2: The New Colossus managed to not pull their punches on their subject matter, and they were still overall action-focused, pulpy fare.

I don't see there being any virtue in both-sides-ing and issue or being trepidatious oboist making a clear statement.
 

Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,227
Tokyo, Japan
I don't really have a problem with it. At the end of the day video games are luxury toys. I don't really expect anything more than political window dressing to be honest.

Can you call video games luxury toys while not saying the same for other forms of media entertainment?

I feel like we should hold them to a higher standard in general. But regardless of where you hold them, the fact is that creators are trying to place political themes/messages into their games, and then quickly back-pedaling when it comes time to publicly talk about their creation.

And yes, we should hold the PR departments to a higher standard as well. It's not cool just to use politically-charged content as window dressing. It's cowardly and dishonest to claim that your game is somehow removed from real issues, when you insist on representing/rendering those issues in your make-believe world. If you want to say something, you should say it. You don't have to be a dick about it, but you can at least acknowledge the political undertones of your game and concede that some views within may be divisive.

Or we can just go back to making games about circles eating dots.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,575
But most of the highly praised games ever have some form of political message- MSG, Final Fantasy etc.

I think people do like political stuff, or are intrigued by it even if they don't recognize it.

This recent blowback on "politics in my games" has only ever been about gender/sexuality stuff.
Why do people always bring these up as though, because it had politics, people engaged with it/they're great examples therein? I completely ignore the story in MGS and FF and play them solely on the basis of their gameplay. The last thing I want is some hand handed, poorly written tripe going over the entry level basics of what twitter covered 2 years prior.

EDIT: If people want games to have deeper messages go for it, but just because some games are super hand-handed and happen to also be successful doesn't mean that they're successful because of their political component or everyone loves engaging with it in particular.
 
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Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,589
That's PR bullshit OP.

If you don't walk away from say, Watch Dogs, without getting their message about capitalism, government survailence, modern privacy etc, you weren't pay attention. Ubisoft covering their asses saying it's not political doesn't change the facts
 

ItIsOkBro

Happy New Year!!
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,515
Sometimes these 'not a political statement' statements feel like they're trying to say the game doesn't exist to take a stance, like it's not an endorsement of any political issue or party. Because you play it and it's obviously political (ex. Life is Strange 2). But the game doesn't tell you to vote for Biden...or something?
 
OP
OP
pjl93

pjl93

Member
Jun 2, 2020
569
NJ
That's PR bullshit OP.

If you don't walk away from say, Watch Dogs, without getting their message about capitalism, government survailence, modern privacy etc, you weren't pay attention. Ubisoft covering their asses saying it's not political doesn't change the facts
I play a lot of ubi titles and in my opinion it always feels like they tiptoe around anything of substance
 

BoxManLocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
France
I thought Detroit handled it pretty well tbh. I enjoyed the story and thought it was better than 90% of stories in other games in general for the last few years.

Handled what well ?

I guess we can argue it was an entertaining product, but the game had absolutely nothing to say. Hell even David Cage was happy to confirm that. So it's among the worst offenders to what OP's talking about.
 

Chadtwo

Member
Oct 29, 2017
655
Agreed 100%. Playing RDR2 right now and there's a clear theme of "the civilized world vilifying is outlaws is a bit hypocritical because of corruption in politics/capitalism" but it's never fully fleshed out and doesn't feel well developed. It would be cool to see a massive big budget game with a great story that also provides a coherent criticism of say, capitalism.
 

Dodgerfan74

Member
Dec 27, 2017
2,696
The people running these companies are profoundly cynical. Exploit political themes to get interest in your product, endlessly argue your products aren't political to avoid offending anyone (even though it is both stupid and offensive in reality), then repeat.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
That might have used to be true but definitely isn't the case with the modern triple A game. The issue is leadership at either the development studio or publisher getting cold feet on actually delivering a message that could potentially alienate a segment of their audience.
Which happens in exactly 0% of AAA titles.

Also implying that CD Project can't write is lol.
0 because once a programmer takes a writing job they wont be credited as a programmer, but how many AAA games are written by people who's entry into the industry wasn't as writers? Off the top of my head, just last year we got two AAA games, Days Gone and Death Stranding.
 

zer0_X

Alt-Account
Banned
Apr 23, 2020
790
the recent statement that cyberpunk is aiming to be a work of art not a political statement gets me so frustrated with these clearly political concepts and themes being thrown aside for a backdrop with ubisoft probably being the worst offender how the fuck are you going to say liberating a post brexit london from martial law is apolitical
almost all popular enterteinment media avoids getting too political.
If you want new ideas, political charged plots or anything that is not purely like everything else, I can only tell you shouldn't be looking for those things in a AAA game (and this is also pretty much true for movies, music, etc)
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,461
It's weird to suggest that being art and being a political statement are two mutually exclusive concepts in the first place given how often art is a vehicle for political commentary.

Also you literally can't make anything in the cyberpunk genre that isn't inherently very political in some very specific ways given that the genre is rooted in ideas of transhumanism, anticapitalism, and a number of other incredibly relevant political concepts
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,136
0 because once a programmer takes a writing job they wont be credited as a programmer, but how many AAA games are written by people who's entry into the industry wasn't as writers? Off the top of my head, just last year we got two AAA games, Days Gone and Death Stranding.
Neil Druckmann started out as a programmer and studied computer science in college. He was also a game designer and writer on the first 2 uncharted games.
 

mdf/markus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
521
User banned (2 weeks): dismissing concerns around representation
If people want to see more profound political statements in videogames, I agree that there should be an audience for those games out there in the current social/political climate.

What I can't agree with is the sentiment that basically every AAA, story heavy release must somehow take a political stance on ongoing social issues. To me that's like asking for a more diverse cast in an Avengers movie, a more liberal storyline in the Expendables franchise or a more eco-friendly setting for the Fast movies.

I feel like the recent PR for Cyberpunk is simply driven by fear of community backlash & as bad and cringeworthy as their communication is right now - I somehow do even feel for them.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,882
Detroit was very well done.

Life is Strange 2 was pretty bad, with a bunch of caricature Trump supporters they put into the game.

Just felt like a very superficial take on racism.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
Detroit was very well done.

Life is Strange 2 was pretty bad, with a bunch of caricature Trump supporters they put into the game.

Just felt like a very superficial take on racism.

I haven't played Life is Strange 2 but I'm astonished anyone thinks that Detroit did well with racism. It beats you over the head with it to the point where a black android is literally singing spirituals to try to get humans not to kill him.
 

blakiebear1

Member
Jul 13, 2018
60
Detroit was very well done.
Was it?
Detroit-Become-Human-Martin-Luther-King-Jr.-speech.png
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
I think more people need to be fine with media telling simple stories. That goes for creators as well as the folks who say most video games don't have competent story telling. Not everything has to be complicated to be good.

So yeah, the trend of just touching on issues without addressing them (or worse, completely mishandling them, see Deus Ex's Aug Lives Matter debacle) is very bad. The issue with games like Cyberpunk is that the politics are quite literally in the name, they can't just roll with being a simple story with that much baggage.

Detroit was very well done.

Life is Strange 2 was pretty bad, with a bunch of caricature Trump supporters they put into the game.

Just felt like a very superficial take on racism.

I'd agree with that re: Life Is Strange 2's first episode but later on they get a lot more "real". They're still pretty over the top but at this point IRL Trump supporters are over the top.

The final episode in particular is very resonant.
 

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,518
I think some people have a narrow definition of what political content means. It's not just the news or current events. It's not just about governments and who control them. Politics included crucial parts such as how society tackles
social issues. The impact of how society treats certain types of people. These are very important aspects of a world like cyberpunk for example. The same goes for many Ubisoft games. If cyberpunk just carries the looks of a cyberpunk without the expected nuanced handling of the story from society's prospective and also from the government prospective, it's ending up as being shallow.

People tend to bring up that cyberpunk looks a like a gta set in the future. But if anyone played any of the gta games, they are very political. In fact the story and the world is a satire of our own world. They bring many political issues and even make fun of them. From corruption, to social issues.
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
what if it's a game that's politically charged with more than window dressing but said political message is something you are not on-board with?

will people be on-board with a game that's 'genuinely' conservative or will people ask it to be 'cancelled'?

the thing about politically message in games is....people only want games to have politcal message where that message is something they agree with.....at least that's my observation of people.
 

BoxManLocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
France
Detroit was very well done.

Life is Strange 2 was pretty bad, with a bunch of caricature Trump supporters they put into the game.

Just felt like a very superficial take on racism.

I don't mean to pile on but Detroit was insultingly superficial considering the subject matter.

Also a "caricatural Trump supporter" is a pleonasm. Have you seen how those fuckers behave ?
 

Deleted member 46804

User requested account closure
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Aug 17, 2018
4,129
0 because once a programmer takes a writing job they wont be credited as a programmer, but how many AAA games are written by people who's entry into the industry wasn't as writers? Off the top of my head, just last year we got two AAA games, Days Gone and Death Stranding.
I don't know about Days Gone but Kojima if that is who you are referring to is a writer at this point. He has been writing for decades.
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,629
These companies want to benefit and profit from politics but their PR are soft moist ass cowards about it to be "apolitical", which is them just trying to have their cake and it eat it too.

It makes me roll my eyes so hard. I rather they just shut the hell up then instead of saying anything with those PR no-answers.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
what if it's a game that's politically charged with more than window dressing but said political message is something you are not on-board with?

will people be on-board with a game that's 'genuinely' conservative or will people ask it to be 'cancelled'?

the thing about politically message in games is....people only want games to have politcal message where that message is something they agree with.....at least that's my observation of people.

In a lot of cases "genuine" conservative viewpoints would be actively regressive and harmful. It's only natural people would call out and "cancel" them. That one indie cyberpunk game about how feminism would cause a dystopia was shilling actively dangerous ideology, for example.

Meanwhile calling for more progressive games doesn't really harm anyone at all, that's why it's frustrating when developers only lightly brush upon them to get the brownie points while maintaining the status quo.

I suppose at least if a game was actively genuinely conservative at least it'd be saying something. But that wouldn't make it immune to criticism.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
I don't know about Days Gone but Kojima if that is who you are referring to is a writer at this point. He has been writing for decades.
No this is exactly the point, it's the same for Days Gone writer/director, who despite joining the industry as an artist, ended up at the writing role more than anything else. He even said in one of Days Gone interviews that he just ended up writing the whole story instead of getting new writers.
That's how a lot of writers in the industry started, [not a writer] steps in to fill the role and it sticks with them.
 

Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,906
Germany
Isn't he real question why are game companies so afraid of releasing something political, while it's a non issue in any other medium?
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
what if it's a game that's politically charged with more than window dressing but said political message is something you are not on-board with?

will people be on-board with a game that's 'genuinely' conservative or will people ask it to be 'cancelled'?

the thing about politically message in games is....people only want games to have politcal message where that message is something they agree with.....at least that's my observation of people.
Considering that "genuinely conservative" would be racist, sexist, misogynistic, xenophobic, jingoistic, etc.

Yes, those messages/themes would and should be rightfully lambasted, no different than any other medium

Wanting overtly politically-charged works isn't blanket acceptance of politics that harm/debase/stereotype people
 

clickKunst

Member
Dec 18, 2017
787
Melbourne, Australia
Don't count on devs to weave political threads competently through a narrative. It's going to be a lot of being beaten over the head with a point until we get some well read developers crafting these stories. Remember that part in Bioshock Infinite where you're given the incredible player choice of throwing a baseball at an interracial couple or not? Such nuanced exploration of political themes. Do you want to be a klan member or a normal person? Remember in GTAV where Trevor has to explain the point about the game's torture scene because it's not enough to just suggest real world events? I'm tired of bad writing.
 

mdf/markus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
521
People tend to bring up that cyberpunk looks a like a gta set in the future. But if anyone played any of the gta games, they are very political. In fact the story and the world is a satire of our own world. They bring many political issues and even make fun of them. From corruption, to social issues.

From what I've seen so far, the same goes for Cyberpunk. The setting, the districts, the character interactions - Cyberpunk 2077 is political, whether the PR says so or not. And I'm confident it has more good aspects to its way of portraying them than bad ones. Some messages may come short, and in the end it would be great if it had more to say than - let's say a Far Cry 5.

Again, the recent communication was bad. Like really unnecessary bad.
 

jakomocha

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,574
California
I feel like developers say their games aren't political, but in reality they are. Pretty much everything is political in reality whether they deny it or not.
 

Deleted member 46804

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 17, 2018
4,129
No this is exactly the point, it's the same for Days Gone writer/director, who despite joining the industry as an artist, ended up at the writing role more than anything else. He even said in one of Days Gone interviews that he just ended up writing the whole story instead of getting new writers.
That's how a lot of writers in the industry started, [not a writer] steps in to fill the role and it sticks with them.
Do you have other examples because this isn't the norm as far as I'm aware. I'm talking about recent examples like Days Gone. I do think games should be less written around the gameplay and the gameplay molded to fit the story.
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
In a lot of cases "genuine" conservative viewpoints would be actively regressive and harmful. It's only natural people would call out and "cancel" them. That one indie cyberpunk game about how feminism would cause a dystopia was shilling actively dangerous ideology, for example.

Meanwhile calling for more progressive games doesn't really harm anyone at all, that's why it's frustrating when developers only lightly brush upon them to get the brownie points while maintaining the status quo.

I suppose at least if a game was actively genuinely conservative at least it'd be saying something. But that wouldn't make it immune to criticism.

Considering that "genuinely conservative" would be racist, sexist, misogynistic, xenophobic, jingoistic, etc.

Yes, those messages/themes would and should be rightfully criticized and lambasted, no different than any other medium

Wanting overtly politically-charged works isn't blanket acceptance of politics that harm/debase/stereotype people
i think it's reductive to say conservative equates to all the negativity that you just described.

I know US political discourse has gone beyond anyone's control but i am coming from an outsider's perspective.

For example, i am from singapore where most people will be considered 'conservative' by US standards, especially in terms of civil liberties.
Most citizens in singapore are more than willing to give up certain 'rights' and 'freedom' to the government just so that they have 'peace of mind'. For the current Covid-19 situation, alot of citizens in singapore literally just installed any contract-tracing apps introduced by the singapore government.

Such blatant acceptance of government's 'instructions' will be consider 'conservative' and thus 'bad' in the perspective of the west but again, that's not how we view it. I think in singapore and singaporean's case, it's not so much a 'liberal vs conservative' political spectrum but rather an 'indivuality vs community' aspect and people here in singapore are more willing to 'sacrifice' certain civli liberties for the 'great good'.

So imagine a game whereby the devs depicts a city such as singapore that's a 'nanny state' but do not paint it as 'bad' but 'good' (or 'moderate' at least), what's your opinion of it? Should it be cancelled? This is definitely not 'liberal' in the sense from the western perspective.


p.s. I am not saying 'Singapore good, US bad' (or vice versa) here...just giving an alternate perspective especially in terms of civil liberties because i realised that, through my travels (i did worked in NYC and London years ago), people in the west have drastically different values from a fundamental level.
 

Tygerjaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
749
So many bad takes here, sometimes I can't believe that even here people still keep saying stuff like videogames don't tell good stories and that everything is around b movie level narrative.
It's kinda irritating tbh, but whatever, "gamers" don't really care to elevate the medium too. It is also very arrogant to say that programmers can't be good writers.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
People do probably need to stop reading into PR statements as being blanket realities about what political statements a game may or may not make, and also what kind of political framing the game has. Like, I get it, it's the easy thing to do to say that it's transitive; the PR line *is* the company line, and the company line *is* everything. But it's not, and a critical analysis of a work sort of demands that we don't take their word for it on any of this stuff.

That being said, it may actually be important to listen to the writers. Listen to the authors of the work, the designers, the people actually spending years of their life doing the work -- if they say that it's not political, what they're actually saying is "we didn't think about this hard." That does have implications. That does change some of the interpretation. It's a hell of a lot more meaningful than some PR face doing the "nothing to see here" routine. Likewise, if someone says the work is political and, moreover, it has something to say about the politics that frame it, then that's even more additional context to draw conclusions.

Everything is political. But not everything is actually, you know, thought about. Not everything is meant to change your mind. And that's an important distinction to make, I think -- it may not affect the actual outcome of the work, politically speaking, but a lack of intent or a carelessness towards the framing politics at least allows us to see the work under a lens where people can talk with each other rather than past each other.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,164
while i would like games to sink their teeth into "politics" more i'm not really sure what the flipside looks like. like The Divison for example everybody crows about how it sidesteps politics, and i can understand why given the subject matter, but what specifically do you want out of it? the final boss as an orange ape in the oval office or something. it's a game about shooting mans and getting leet gear
 

Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,906
Germany
while i would like games to sink their teeth into "politics" more i'm not really sure what the flipside looks like. like The Divison for example everybody crows about how it sidesteps politics, and i can understand why given the subject matter, but what specifically do you want out of it? the final boss as an orange ape in the oval office or something. it's a game about shooting mans and getting leet gear

While the Division does no deep exploration of anything, it is quite political. I mean just look at the into of Division 2. There is this part about the people with guns being able to defend themselves (and others). Then we have the decked out agents and the friendly settlements. The entire thing is basically the right wing narrative of good people with guns are necessary.
 

Yuntu

Prophet of Regret
Member
Nov 7, 2019
10,687
Germany
People do probably need to stop reading into PR statements as being blanket realities about what political statements a game may or may not make, and also what kind of political framing the game has. Like, I get it, it's the easy thing to do to say that it's transitive; the PR line *is* the company line, and the company line *is* everything. But it's not, and a critical analysis of a work sort of demands that we don't take their word for it on any of this stuff.

That being said, it may actually be important to listen to the writers. Listen to the authors of the work, the designers, the people actually spending years of their life doing the work -- if they say that it's not political, what they're actually saying is "we didn't think about this hard." That does have implications. That does change some of the interpretation. It's a hell of a lot more meaningful than some PR face doing the "nothing to see here" routine. Likewise, if someone says the work is political and, moreover, it has something to say about the politics that frame it, then that's even more additional context to draw conclusions.

Everything is political. But not everything is actually, you know, thought about. Not everything is meant to change your mind. And that's an important distinction to make, I think -- it may not affect the actual outcome of the work, politically speaking, but a lack of intent or a carelessness towards the framing politics at least allows us to see the work under a lens where people can talk with each other rather than past each other.

Couldnt have put it better myself.