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Delio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,466
I feel like while yeah the older games are "harder" the lack of options plus shit ass move sets plus the level curve also really help to pump up how hard it is. Nowadays a lot of Pokemon just get really good moves to use which just ends up making it easier.

I think a decent hard mode would be to pump up the IVs and let the AI teams have better moves and held items. Would help if the AI was smarter about switching as well i guess.
 

Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
That's not even considering that dragon types couldn't really be defended against at the time. They were only weak to ice moved, which weren't common at all, and then you had Kingdra, which had 0 weaknesses until fairy types came out.

Incorrect Dragon were also weak to Dragon type, so Kingdra did have a weakness. There aren't any Pokémon that had no weakness and still doesn't.
 
Nov 25, 2019
611
I really don't see how anyone could think the newer Pokemon games are as difficult as gen 2 - at least Gen 3 remakes.

Alpha Sapphire was the first Pokemon game I EVER played.

I was aware of the weakness / resistance mechanic and tried to adhere to it at first but that was pretty much it.
I wasn't aware of any other mechanics.

My Mudkip would attack and often I would see the 'is not very effective' message and I still did not encounter any pressure.
Likewise, my Mudkip would often get attacked and see 'It's super effective' and still not feel threatened.

I loved Slyveon design and acquired them as soon as possible, but by the time I did I already realized it wasn't necessary for me to engage myself with any of the battle systems mechanics or intricacies.
Just spamming my favorite move was apparently enough(Which ended up being draining kiss due to being a powerful move that heals the user).

I'll admit my main Pokemon fainted in Alpha Sapphire but I never wiped during a single required battle.
Pokemon Y was even EASIER for me. I can honestly barely remember the fights in that game.

Turn based RPGs are one of my favorite video game genres that I've played for decades, and even after having much more experience with the Pokemon battle system after completing two games I find myself having to be dramatically more attentive to battles in Crystal.

Honestly the fights aren't THAT difficult, but the difference between them and those in Y and Alpha Sapphire are like night and day.
It honestly makes me audacious enough to suggest that some of the people in this thread that are stating the Crystal and the newer games mandatory encounters are similar in difficulty may be flat out LYING or at least being disingenuous.

I do appreciate the detailed responses elaborating on the key differences between the games, however, and believe that at least they are being sincere when discussing them.
I'm sorry if you think that people are lying/being disingenuous just because they don't share the same experience that you had.

I have always had an easy time with Pokémon games, with almost each game having a "hard encounter" for my team. Like many people, the hax of Attract made me lose the fight against Whitney on Gold, until I got the traded Machop (which was female!). I lost to Brawly on Sapphire because I was like 2 or 3 levels lower and let his Makuhita accumulate Bulk Up. On Platinum, Cynthia was almost a defeat thanks to her varied team composition. Ultra Sun also had Hau giving me a scare with his speedy Alolan Raichu feasting on my slow team. On Shield, I lost against Zacian because 4 of my team members were weak against Steel and it managed to use Swords Dance when my Cinderace's Pyro Ball missed. That situation happened again with Leon's Haxorus, that outsped almost everyone on my party, got two CH and Cinderace missed again haha.

Like previously said, almost all difficulties on Pokémon games depend on team composition. And that's why if you have lots more options now and the AI doesn't use them, you end up with much better teams.
 

Delio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,466
As has already been mentioned by others in this thread, the main issue with modern Pokemon is the immense power creep that's happened steadily over the generations, and that's in terms of both Pokemon and moves. Let's be real, G/S/C aren't difficult because of great enemy design or anything like that, if a Gym Leader in a modern Pokemon game had a level 7 Pidgey and level 9 Pidgeotto, or used Metapod and Kakuna, it would be widely criticised. The reason they're difficult is because a) Pokemon learnsets are extremely limited, b) because Gen 1&2 Pokemon are a fair bit weaker on average than modern Pokemon, and c) the level curve is all over the place.

Let's take a look at some of the early game Pokemon that a lot of people use for the first few gyms. Bellsprout learns one move with more than 55 power in it's entire level-up move set, and doesn't get that until level 45. Up until it evolves the only moves you have available to you are 40BP Vine Whip and 15BP Wrap. Zubat has 20BP Leech Life as its only attack move until level 12 and it doesn't even get a 4th move until level 19 when it learns Confuse Ray. Mareep gets 40 BP Thundershock and 35BP Tackle as its only two attacking moves until level 37. Even a starter like Cyndaquil doesn't get Ember until level 12 and only naturally learns one move over 60BP.

On the subject of the level curve, it's basically designed for you to always be under-levelled, assuming that was actually the intention and wasn't just an oversight. Where the game expects you to gain 5 levels between Whitney and Morty and then again because Chuck and Jasmine I have absolutely no idea. That being said, I do love Gold and Silver, and even more so HG/SS, but they are quite flawed and there is a lot you could do to fix them in a remake.

They started doing it in Sword and Shield but they really need to start culling some moves and toning down the movepools. Most Pokemon these days will have a 60BP move by the time they hit level 20, and some learn 80BP+ moves ridiculously early as well. Also reserve unbreakable TMs for the post-game as they completely break the story, but don't hand out breakable ones like candy ala Sword and Shield, because that was even more game-breaking.

I agree with maybe limiting how powerful the movesets are early on. Maybe moving the really strong stuff till much later in their level up pool would make it seem harder cause your just not hitting as hard as you could be. Move all the useful Tms till late game as well so people have to work to it. I guess you wouldnt even have to adjust the AI if you did that.
 

The Gold Hawk

Member
Jan 30, 2019
4,529
Yorkshire
Yeah, Lance isn't a pushover by any means. I always make sure I have access to a good Ice move. I think on my first HGSS playthrough I slapped a Blizzard TM on my Politoed and just used that to take out his Dragonites.

Karen can be a pain but outside of her Umbreon and maybe Houndoom I've always found her pretty manageable. Bruno usually gives me more trouble because Johto doesn't have a lot of great Flyers and Machamp's No Guard + Rock Slide can wreck Flyers, especially if you're in midair with Fly.

(Also, I think you can only catch gen 3 stuff with the radio tower after you get the National Pokedex.)
I had to use Lugia for most of the fighting types, he's so fast that he tends to tag them before they get a chance and gave him the berry that lowers rock type effectiveness. It still did a number but between that and spamming fly it was pretty clean. I don't really like using legendaries in my team, but I think it was a nostalgia thing. Also, the other psychic/flying types don't look good, aesthetically, to myself.

Oh that's kind of annoying about the radio. I hate that stuff, same with the trading up to the next gen systems. I think it's unlocked halfway through the Kanto region in HG/SS. I don't want to be able to catch a level 3 Ralts by the time all my other pokemon are 50+ and I also have a shiny Scizor that I want to bounce to Sword, but at this rate it's gonna take 3 years to get him there.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
32,776
Incorrect Dragon were also weak to Dragon type, so Kingdra did have a weakness. There aren't any Pokémon that had no weakness and still doesn't.
How common were dragon moves though? There were all of 4 moves and they didn't really have great distribution. You largely had dragon rage (which hit for a set amount) and twister (which was really weak) and neither of them were common at all. So while Kingdra technically had a weakness, a player's ability to exploit it during a gym battle was nearly non-existent.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
17,283
Midgar, With Love
How common were dragon moves though? There were all of 4 moves and they didn't really have great distribution. You largely had dragon rage (which hit for a set amount) and twister (which was really weak) and neither of them were common at all.

Yeah, this is how I remember things as well. There really wasn't much.
 
Nov 25, 2019
611
Incorrect Dragon were also weak to Dragon type, so Kingdra did have a weakness. There aren't any Pokémon that had no weakness and still doesn't.
On the other hand, when facing Clair in GSC, you only had access to a Seadra (or Kingdra) using Twister. Dragonbreath was exclusive to the TM (and you got it from her)... If you were able to get a Dratini before facing her, you may have access to Outrage if you powerlevel your Dratini to lv 50.
 

PKrockin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,260
There's a huge list of issues with them, but the biggest two were Psychic Pokemon we're immune to Ghost attacks when they were supposed to be weak to them. So Psychic was only weak to Bug. Which was awful offensively. Another big issue is enemy Pokemon didn't have PP, so they would always be able to attack
Some of my favorites are Struggle being coded as a Normal-type attack so the game can softlock if you fight Ghosts, if you get paralyzed or confused on the turn you're attacking with Dig or Fly you just become invincible, and how the game frequently lies to you about what's super effective or not very effective when dual-types are involved. No wonder I was always so confused about type effectiveness as a kid.

Incorrect Dragon were also weak to Dragon type, so Kingdra did have a weakness. There aren't any Pokémon that had no weakness and still doesn't.
Spiritomb aside, Eelektross also has no weakness really, being an electric type with the levitate ability making it immune to ground. I guess you could hit it with ground after using Skill Swap, but... c'mon now.
 
Last edited:

Charlie0108

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,021
I agree with maybe limiting how powerful the movesets are early on. Maybe moving the really strong stuff till much later in their level up pool would make it seem harder cause your just not hitting as hard as you could be. Move all the useful Tms till late game as well so people have to work to it. I guess you wouldnt even have to adjust the AI if you did that.
Something else to do is to stop making really good Pokemon available super early game. Stuff like the Hitmons before the first gym in SwSh, Bagon on MeleMele in S/M and well, basically everything early on in X/Y are also very game-breaking. Obviously it's no fault of the player to use what they're given in the game but I vividly remember the majority of people who used to say X/Y were too easy back when they first came out all had teams full of psuedos, starters and megas.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Something else to do is to stop making really good Pokemon available super early game. Stuff like the Hitmons before the first gym in SwSh, Bagon on MeleMele in S/M and well, basically everything early on in X/Y are also very game-breaking. Obviously it's no fault of the player to use what they're given in the game but I vividly remember the majority of people who used to say X/Y were too easy back when they first came out all had teams full of psuedos, starters and megas.
Sure, but with BW2, I could have an Arcanine, Lucario and Braivary by the third gym and it still pushed back.
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,847
Eh, Crystal isn't *hard* throughout (honestly most of the game is a breeze IMO) but it does have difficult spots that definitely challenged players more back then than the games do now. Specifically in G/S/C, Lance's gauntlet of Dragonites, the E4 member's Umbreon with the Confuse Ray/Faint Attack spam (and the thing tanking hits like a MF), the aforementioned Whitney and her Miltank, and the 4th gym's Gengar with it's Hypnosis/Dream Eater strategy.

That's where the biggest dropoff in challenge has been in the modern games to me - in the gym and Elite 4 battles. Honestly the last game where I felt that area truly challenged me (relatively speaking) was Pearl/Diamond (which is also why I hold them in such high regard). The 4th gen games more often than not employed strategy, so that you didn't just spam attack moves or model your whole move slot with no support moves. I do believe this was incidental BtW, as this was the gen Gamefreak went "mask off" and completely embraced the competitive meta scene with the physical/special split, post-game area, expansion on hold-items, further defining abilities, and even making all 3 of the starters (at the time) competitively viable.
 

Roliq

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Sep 23, 2018
6,196
I feel like while yeah the older games are "harder" the lack of options plus shit ass move sets plus the level curve also really help to pump up how hard it is. Nowadays a lot of Pokemon just get really good moves to use which just ends up making it easier.

I think a decent hard mode would be to pump up the IVs and let the AI teams have better moves and held items. Would help if the AI was smarter about switching as well i guess.
Is the same reason people will complain about Cynthia in the possibles remakes as there have been so many changes from Gen 4 to 8 that will make easier even if they left it the same as the original
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,847
I had to use Lugia for most of the fighting types, he's so fast that he tends to tag them before they get a chance and gave him the berry that lowers rock type effectiveness. It still did a number but between that and spamming fly it was pretty clean. I don't really like using legendaries in my team, but I think it was a nostalgia thing. Also, the other psychic/flying types don't look good, aesthetically, to myself.

Oh that's kind of annoying about the radio. I hate that stuff, same with the trading up to the next gen systems. I think it's unlocked halfway through the Kanto region in HG/SS. I don't want to be able to catch a level 3 Ralts by the time all my other pokemon are 50+ and I also have a shiny Scizor that I want to bounce to Sword, but at this rate it's gonna take 3 years to get him there.
Crobat has a 4x resist against Fighting type 👀
Pretty damn (actually really damn) fast too 👀
Part flying so he gets a nice stab 👀

Not saying Crobat is pretty awesome......but he's pretty awesome
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,553
Games aren't necessarily *difficult* you are just given a lot fewer resources to deal with things. Later gens the level up movelist of most pokemon makes them at least usable. Gen 1-2 you can easily get stuck investing a ton of exp into something with few usable moves or something that is entirely dependent on burning TMs to make good. The games are just very uneven in ways that RPGs made 20 years ago were. You can really tell the difference between Crystal (December 2000 in JP) and Ruby/Sapphire (November 2002) just based on how much better movelists and the TM list is.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Something Gen 2 does that gets overlooked is you could totally backtrack for stronger mons once you get certain abilities.

Heracross once you get headbutt is a monster despite having to wait so long for good moves.
And going back for Lapras on Fridays once you get Surf, Lance who?
 

Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
How common were dragon moves though? There were all of 4 moves and they didn't really have great distribution. You largely had dragon rage (which hit for a set amount) and twister (which was really weak) and neither of them were common at all. So while Kingdra technically had a weakness, a player's ability to exploit it during a gym battle was nearly non-existent.

Ah, I see. I thought you were talking about in general. But yeah, Clair's Kingdra is tricky to take down but not impossible.

Super nitpicky, but technically this isn't true. Spiritomb and Sableye are Ghost/Dark and had no weakness before fairy showed up.

Gen 3 and 4 though.

Nope, they were still weak to fighting type Pokémon which could be exposed if the player used the move foresight or had a Pokémon with a scrappy ability.

Immunity does not equal no weakness if it can be bypassed which in the case for Spiritomb and Sableye they could be.

Eelektross also has no weakness really, being an electric type with the levitate ability making it immune to ground. I guess you could hit it with ground after using Skill Swap, but... c'mon now.

Nope, Pokémon with the ability Moldbreaker could hit Eelekross with Earthquake. Plus aside from Skill Swap there were other moves and items that could shut down Eelektross ability.

Like I said before, to this date there exist no Pokémon with zero weakness.
 

Charlie0108

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,021
Still annoys me a bit that they didn't fix the Gym Leader rosters in HG/SS. The Johto region and only 4/8 Gym Leaders use a Johto Pokemon as their ace and 4/8 have 0 Johto Pokemon at all. It's not like there wasn't options either. You could easily give Falkner Murkrow or Natu, Bugsy Yanma, Ariados, Ledian, Pineco or Heracross, Morty Misdreavus (although they screwed themselves here by only adding ONE new Ghost type, and Chuck Heracross or Hitmontop. Could even distribute Sneasel, Delibird, Skarmory, Forretress, Teddiursa, Girafarig, Furret, Togetic etc. to their respective Gym Leaders. Just let the new Pokemon shine man!
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Still annoys me a bit that they didn't fix the Gym Leader rosters in HG/SS. The Johto region and only 4/8 Gym Leaders use a Johto Pokemon as their ace and 4/8 have 0 Johto Pokemon at all. It's not like there wasn't options either. You could easily give Falkner Murkrow or Natu, Bugsy Yanma, Ariados, Ledian, Pineco or Heracross, Morty Misdreavus (although they screwed themselves here by only adding ONE new Ghost type, and Chuck Heracross or Hitmontop. Could even distribute Sneasel, Delibird, Skarmory, Forretress, Teddiursa, Girafarig, Furret, Togetic etc. to their respective Gym Leaders. Just let the new Pokemon shine man!
This is just weird headcannon some of you have.
 
Apr 25, 2018
269
Unfortunately the only way to make the main story challenging in most Pokemon games is to self impose limitation like Nuzlocke runs, monotype runs, limit which Pokemon can evolve or what moves they can learn etc. Stuff like that can be a lot of fun.

Of course we shouldn't have to do that ourselves, it's frustrating that Game Freak seemingly have no interest in adding an optional hard mode to the games (except for Black and White 2, where even accessing hard mode was ridiculously convoluted to the point that they might as well not have bothered)
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
32,776
Ah, I see. I thought you were talking about in general. But yeah, Clair's Kingdra is tricky to take down but not impossible.
Right. My point is really that a lot of the challenge from the earlier games came from the fact they were hilariously unbalanced. Movepools were largely straight up bad, you didn't have easy access to various types of Pokemon or attacks, certain moves were straight up broken, so on and so forth. All of that has been fixed, there's really no part of the game that is unbalanced at this point. They haven't readjusted difficulty to account for this new balance in gameplay though, so we look at older games being harder as a result.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,286
I feel like the first 2 gens are so hard because everything is still deeply unbalanced at that point. Psychic/Ghost types could generally run roughshod over entire teams if you weren't prepared. Dark types (and dark moves) weren't too common in gen 2, it's why Espeon with bite was so strong.

That's not even considering that dragon types couldn't really be defended against at the time. They were only weak to ice moved, which weren't common at all, and then you had Kingdra, which had 0 weaknesses until fairy types came out.

In comparison, the modern game has a pretty even spread of types and moves across a large breadth of Pokemon. Back in gens 1 and 2 it was pretty hard to make a balanced team that could handle any threat, now a days it's almost impossible to do.


Weirdly, I think it's the opposite. They're very clearly better balanced now, Game Freak just never adjusted the difficulty to account for the newfound gameplay balance. Gone are the days of just needing a strong psychic type to run over every trainer in the game.

Yeah, this. There's no fight, in any Pokémon game, that's hard if you're of a comparable level with the right type and a STAB move. The issue in the early games is that such Pokémon/moves weren't always available. No dragon moves at all in gen 1 (except fixed damage ones), only Lick for a ghost move, etc... Gen 2 still has some of those issues, but half of them are memes (like Whitney's Miltank; seriously just go get the damn Machop).

The biggest factor making those games harder was balance being wack as fuck, followed by the fact that so many people were children. Like I said above, get a Pokémon to the same level as the gym leader with the correct type and a STAB move, and you can sleep through these. I did a Yellow playthrough last year and was totally fine (outside of Sabrina because the only ghosts in that game are half poison, along with many (all?) of the bugs!)
 

Deleted member 15457

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
907
None of the Pokemon games are really "difficult" because of how experience is distributed. Older games actively pushed you towards soloing the game with your starter by giving all the exp. to Pokemon that participated in the battle. This creates a snowball effect where you are dis-incentivized from using more then one or two Pokemon since grinding up a full team took a lot longer AND was harder due to the lower levels from the split exp.

Newer games are a step in the right direction, or at least they would be if Game Freak bothered to properly balance the level curve around the exp. distribution instead of making the whole group snowball instead of one.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
32,776
Yeah, this. There's no fight, in any Pokémon game, that's hard if you're of a comparable level with the right type and a STAB move. The issue in the early games is that such Pokémon/moves weren't always available. No dragon moves at all in gen 1 (except fixed damage ones), only Lick for a ghost move, etc... Gen 2 still has some of those issues, but half of them are memes (like Whitney's Miltank; seriously just go get the damn Machop).

The biggest factor making those games harder was balance being wack as fuck, followed by the fact that so many people were children. Like I said above, get a Pokémon to the same level as the gym leader with the correct type and a STAB move, and you can sleep through these. I did a Yellow playthrough last year and was totally fine (outside of Sabrina because the only ghosts in that game are half poison, along with many (all?) of the bugs!)
Hell, gen 1 only had a single bug move and only Beedrill got it! Beedrill, who is part poison and kinda useless after level 20. Say you went to the safari zone and got a scyther. Damn thing was useless against Sabrina because it had no bug moves. So while it wouldn't be hit by super effective psychics off her kadabra, it also couldn't hit for super effective damage either.

This is all stuff that really didn't start being addressed until like generation 4 or 5. Bug types especially were garbage until like gen 5.
 

ryan13ts

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,102
Ah, Gen 2, the good ol' days when Pokemon actually had something called "difficulty". I still have the fondest of memories going through that game the first time as a kid, especially going up against that fucking Miltank. Made me feel sooooo good when I finally crushed it.

It's a shame modern day kids won't get to experience that type of satisfaction with newer games, unless they play the classics. For some reason, somewhere down the generations, Gamefreak decided that children became brain-dead morons that had to be handheld through every single thing... and that's how we ended up with Pokemon X/Y and the generations to follow. It's almost painful to go back to games like G/S, since it shows how good they balanced the difficulty in those games compared to... now.

If anything, them dumbing down everything in their games is an insult to modern kids intelligence. Even my nephew, when he was 7, thought X/Y was way too easy. The funny part is he actually enjoyed Gold on virtual console more, despite the much older graphics (the one thing he had trouble getting over) and that told me how out of touch they are, with thinking kids are incapable of enjoying something challenging.

And all of that is saying nothing about adults like us that love these game. Is asking for a hard mode too much?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,535
Older Pokémon's difficultly is weird due to its structure. Because whether you find something hard or not will have more to do with choices you didn't even know you were making. Like Whitney for instance. If you have the tools, she's no more difficult than anything else. But if you don't you'll struggle. And due to where she's placed and what the player is likely to have at that point, the player is more likely to struggle than not as evidenced by the status she's gained over the years.

Personally I think the biggest thing that makes the newer games easier than the older ones is generally just streamlining and a focus on reducing any potential for friction. Most of the structure of what battles consist of remains unchanged. Trainers still work the same way with one or two crappy Pokémon each. They use wrong or bad moves. Have little to no sense of self preservation. Some dude just has 6 Magikarp for some reason. Etc.

It was always like that, and the raw challenge of battles really hasn't changed much on average. What has happened is that tons of additions have made it so the player can glide through those battles without any friction. In the older games, rivals would ambush you and force you to fight whether you were ready or not. In the new games rivals either ask you whether you're ready to fight or they'll just heal your Pokémon for you before and after the fight. The number of times you'll finish a cutscene or major segment and notice your Pokémon are suddenly back at full health is quite high in the new ones and almost completely non-existent in the old ones. The new games go well out of their way to make sure the player is at max efficiency before asking them to do anything. Poison was more of a punishment in older games. Your general ability to avoid taking damage over time, thus avoiding potential scenarios where you might find yourself struggling, has increased dramatically in newer games thanks to a wide variety of factors: less grid-based movement allows you to avoid stuff more easily. Route structure trended towards being less mazelike and stuff like flash is basically non-existent. You gain access to fast travel sooner and it's not possible to miss getting it. Random encounters are basically gone and there aren't any areas where fights can't be avoided like how caves worked in older games. People just straight up give you strong Pokémon all the time. Sometimes even legendaries. As well as things other people have said like your ability to just make better teams more easily.

And really, a lot of that stuff is potentially good. It's probably not a good idea to have your games challenge and engagement come from stupid shit. But despite these changes the battles didn't evolve to match them for the most part. The battles don't take these quality of life things into account to make for a more interesting experience. They still just throw the same stuff at you they've been throwing at you since gen 1. It's only natural most people would feel there's a change in how challenging the games are overall.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,639
I don't think it's very hard, X/Y and ORAS are just a joke in terms of difficulty. US/UM are decent difficulty IMO. Sword and Shield isn't though.
 

makonero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,664
The philosophy change at Game Freak is evident by the way they just hand you legendaries now. In the old days there was a strength puzzle or a crazy cave full of whirlpools or a Braille puzzle to solve. Getting to a legendary was tough enough; then you had to weaken it and hope you brought enough ultra balls.
Dungeons were also tougher. Silph co was a multi-layer dungeon full of teleporters and difficult trainers. It was an endurance run, a memory test, and full of secrets and goodies. Getting Lapras was a prize for getting to the end. Modern Pokemon dungeons don't even compare to being poisoned and trying to find the room where they'll let you heal before a rocket grunt kills your last Pokemon.

the philosophy change is shown when they didn't release the Arceus flute because it was too hard for kids to get through the content. So now everything is streamlined. No more poison affecting you on the field, no grand dungeons with elevators and teleporters, no more feelings of danger or confusion. I can remember vividly memorizing the layout to Mt. Moon and Rock Tunnel because I would get lost. I can't remember any dungeon in gen6/7.

I'm really hoping for someone to come along and make a Pokemon clone that apes the roughness of the original games. It would sell like hot cakes.
 

Alent

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,730
Pokemon games have always been easy, it's just ever since XY they've been extra piss easy. Though Leon is the first Champion i've ever lost to, fittingly enough. I think the only other time i've been worried about losing a battle, that i can remember, was Whitney and Ghetsis.
 

Ultratech

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,385
Hell, gen 1 only had a single bug move and only Beedrill got it! Beedrill, who is part poison and kinda useless after level 20. Say you went to the safari zone and got a scyther. Damn thing was useless against Sabrina because it had no bug moves. So while it wouldn't be hit by super effective psychics off her kadabra, it also couldn't hit for super effective damage either.

This is all stuff that really didn't start being addressed until like generation 4 or 5. Bug types especially were garbage until like gen 5.

There's also Pin Missile which a few mons had, but the same issue persists in that it's weak as hell.

At least they tried to fix Ghost and Bug moves in Gen 2 with Shadow Ball and Megahorn.
(Except Shadow Ball was Physical and TM-locked and Megahorn was exclusive to Heracross...who was very weak to Psychics.)

But yeah, I don't remember Bug moves being particularly good until like Gen 4 when they got some good stuff like Signal Beam, X-Scissor, U-Turn, and Bug Buzz.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
32,776
There's also Pin Missile which a few mons had, but the same issue persists in that it's weak as hell.

At least they tried to fix Ghost and Bug moves in Gen 2 with Shadow Ball and Megahorn.
(Except Shadow Ball was Physical and TM-locked and Megahorn was exclusive to Heracross...who was very weak to Psychics.)

But yeah, I don't remember Bug moves being particularly good until like Gen 4 when they got some good stuff like Signal Beam, X-Scissor, U-Turn, and Bug Buzz.
OK, so there's two bug moves. Both of which only Beedrill gets.

But yeah, there's entire types that were straight trash until like gen 4. Hell, outside of ember there weren't any fire moves until late game in gen 1.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
When was Pokemon ever hard lol? Played those games as a 6 year old. Am I missing something?
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,783
Holy shit, the memories. They're coming back

tumblr_oyqvoqAakS1utg2kio3_250.gifv


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Its one of those gaming moments that will stick with me forever. got rekt so often by milktank in this fight

When was Pokemon ever hard lol? Played those games as a 6 year old. Am I missing something?
these days, pokemon games almost play themselves, even a 3 year old could play it and I am not even joking.
 

PKrockin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,260
Older Pokémon's difficultly is weird due to its structure. Because whether you find something hard or not will have more to do with choices you didn't even know you were making. Like Whitney for instance. If you have the tools, she's no more difficult than anything else. But if you don't you'll struggle. And due to where she's placed and what the player is likely to have at that point, the player is more likely to struggle than not as evidenced by the status she's gained over the years.

Personally I think the biggest thing that makes the newer games easier than the older ones is generally just streamlining and a focus on reducing any potential for friction. Most of the structure of what battles consist of remains unchanged. Trainers still work the same way with one or two crappy Pokémon each. They use wrong or bad moves. Have little to no sense of self preservation. Some dude just has 6 Magikarp for some reason. Etc.

It was always like that, and the raw challenge of battles really hasn't changed much on average. What has happened is that tons of additions have made it so the player can glide through those battles without any friction. In the older games, rivals would ambush you and force you to fight whether you were ready or not. In the new games rivals either ask you whether you're ready to fight or they'll just heal your Pokémon for you before and after the fight. The number of times you'll finish a cutscene or major segment and notice your Pokémon are suddenly back at full health is quite high in the new ones and almost completely non-existent in the old ones. The new games go well out of their way to make sure the player is at max efficiency before asking them to do anything. Poison was more of a punishment in older games. Your general ability to avoid taking damage over time, thus avoiding potential scenarios where you might find yourself struggling, has increased dramatically in newer games thanks to a wide variety of factors: less grid-based movement allows you to avoid stuff more easily. Route structure trended towards being less mazelike and stuff like flash is basically non-existent. You gain access to fast travel sooner and it's not possible to miss getting it. Random encounters are basically gone and there aren't any areas where fights can't be avoided like how caves worked in older games. People just straight up give you strong Pokémon all the time. Sometimes even legendaries. As well as things other people have said like your ability to just make better teams more easily.

And really, a lot of that stuff is potentially good. It's probably not a good idea to have your games challenge and engagement come from stupid shit. But despite these changes the battles didn't evolve to match them for the most part. The battles don't take these quality of life things into account to make for a more interesting experience. They still just throw the same stuff at you they've been throwing at you since gen 1. It's only natural most people would feel there's a change in how challenging the games are overall.
In terms of wearing the player down, PP also becomes a surprisingly relevant factor, in my experience. Especially if I'm thrashing wilds on my way through a cave or something (no encounters = no chance for new Pokemon). Dig and Earthquake are only 10 PP, Headbutt is 15, Ice Beam is 10 and Blizzard is 5. I might be eyeing those precious 5 Fire Blast PP and guess that one of my 25 Embers, or a strong coverage move, can suffice to take out a weak opponent. Feels good when I guess right and save those PP for a potential Rocket fight or something, even if I never end up needing it.
 

PiranhaMan

Member
Apr 26, 2020
977
All I did to take out Whitneys Miltank was to have my Haunter use Curse on it after taking out the rest of her pokemon.
 

Valkerion

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,243
I never beat my 3DS playthrough of Crystal, I was surprised how unbalanced the second gen games were as an adult.
 

unholyFarmer

Member
Jan 22, 2019
1,374
The philosophy change at Game Freak is evident by the way they just hand you legendaries now. In the old days there was a strength puzzle or a crazy cave full of whirlpools or a Braille puzzle to solve. Getting to a legendary was tough enough; then you had to weaken it and hope you brought enough ultra balls.
Dungeons were also tougher. Silph co was a multi-layer dungeon full of teleporters and difficult trainers. It was an endurance run, a memory test, and full of secrets and goodies. Getting Lapras was a prize for getting to the end. Modern Pokemon dungeons don't even compare to being poisoned and trying to find the room where they'll let you heal before a rocket grunt kills your last Pokemon.

the philosophy change is shown when they didn't release the Arceus flute because it was too hard for kids to get through the content. So now everything is streamlined. No more poison affecting you on the field, no grand dungeons with elevators and teleporters, no more feelings of danger or confusion. I can remember vividly memorizing the layout to Mt. Moon and Rock Tunnel because I would get lost. I can't remember any dungeon in gen6/7.

I'm really hoping for someone to come along and make a Pokemon clone that apes the roughness of the original games. It would sell like hot cakes.
So many good posts in this thread to quote, but I will go with yours.

Modern Pokemon games feel like uninspiring theme park rides, full of forgettable experiences. They stripped down modern games from any actual challenge in the main adventure, in terms of exploration, trainers, gym leaders.. In the old games you really had to work hard to get some rare or legendary monster, if you went into a cave you had to make sure you were prepared for the long run, and when that was finally over, who knows, you rival might appear just before reaching the Pkmn center. Now I just feel nothing playing ShSw, I can turn off my brain and just check before going into a new gym (or whatever was that endgame) if I have at least someone with a STAB move.

The day will come when someone will make a Pokemon clone that is able to recapture some of the elements that made the old games great while giving some kind of modern experience to players.
 

Deleted member 8166

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,075
as someone that grew up with gen 1, Pokemon crystal is THE Pokemon game for me and no new Pokemon game reached the quality, content, awesomeness for me. it was just such an incredible emotional event when..well. let's just say have fun with what is to come.

also keep the thread going please!
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,903
JP
Maybe it's not that many of us since the modern games sell like hotcakes, but I just couldn't keep playing modern entries after X/Y because there's no challenge whatsoever. No one is asking for Dark Souls Pokémon, we managed to beat the classic games when we were very young after all, but it turns out I do need some challenge to stay engaged.

I skipped everything after X/Y until... Let's Go, lol. It was a frustrating experience because I was not hating the experience at all, I just lost interest because there was literally no challenge left.

I'm enjoying the Coromon demo more than I've enjoyed any Pokémon game since... maybe B/W.
 

Trelova

Banned
Apr 8, 2020
814
The way Sacred Gold(a fanmade straight upgrade patch to HG/SS) did these games was far better and 'challenging' in the right way.

tons of choices of mons all-around, tons of great items for mons to hold, tons of TMs, and with all that at your disposal they go all out on the battles.

trainers regularly have fully evolved mons near your levels even halfway through the game, and gym leaders pack a whole 6 mons all of which are threatening as hell and probably a few levels over you. it never feels unfair though just because of the sheer options you have, it's just a lot more fun.

like, my team just ended up like this after Olivine's gym and i honestly couldn't be happier

PzBwB88.png


just the tension and the fact that you outright wipe on any big battle even with such a strong team makes it all so much more engaging.
 

Woylie

Member
May 9, 2018
1,849
I think the hype about Whitney's Miltank is a bit overblown. Isn't there literally a trade where you can get a Machop in Goldenrod?

I think they do that a lot, where you can catch or obtain a Pokemon with an advantage over the local gym leader very close by. The ice cave being right before Claire is another example of this.
 

Seafoam Gaming

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
2,692
Gen 2's level curve is atrocious. You're pretty much nerfed and weakened and have to do a lot of grinding or focus exclusively on heavy hitters to get stuff done easily. I still find GS to be fairly fun games that are my favorite of the GB-GBC ones, but they definitely are rough and Crystal doesn't add much to be excited over imo. Wouldn't really call that hard, more or less "Weirdly balanced". On the opposite side of things the kanto part of the game is broken in half and nobody stands a chance against you (they didn't really fix this in HGSS either, unless you rematched them in the dojo which finally gave them good teams). To be blunt, most of the hardest games in the franchise are honestly due to bad design decisions in some way or another, with Gen 2 being due to the level curve, and I remember getting wrecked hard by Bugsy and Whitney, but literally nobody else as I was able to steamroll them due to the options opening up after Goldenrod. (You also can get a machop in a trade to steamroll whitney if you notice that ahead of time, so even she isn't safe)

The only other game I could really think of that's shockingly hard, but to the point of insanity and utter hair-pulling (that aren't the stadium games), would be Fire Red and Leaf Green. Somehow, they took the normally super easy Kanto, and tried to toughen it up a bit... Only to mess things up horribly. There's no move relearner (just like the originals), meaning that the moves you put on your pokemon are the ones you're stuck with, so if you end up needing Psychic but all the pokemon you have can't learn it, better use your sole TM to help your team! But unlike RBY, the AI is actually good due to being based off RS, so they'll kick your ass and spam status conditions to hell and back, along with being at pretty high levels compared to the general levels scale. Replaying that one and beating the Round 2 E4 was incredibly infuriating, but I can't help but admit some parts were pretty edge-of-my-seat intense and I liked some of it. Still lame that you couldn't relearn moves though, and I think that could have done with tweaking. (LGPE I feel finally nails the difficulty curve as doing the gym badges out of order makes things tougher and allows you to make it more fun that way) BW1 also has a nasty difficulty spike at the Elite Four, but otherwise that one's fairly standard

I definitely do agree with the consensus on ORAS/XY being braindead easy though, especially the former. It's night and day compared to the originals, which had a fine level curve and the only gripe being the limited use TMs, but ORAS basically overpowers you with little options to turn it off (EXP Share isn't even the problem here) and doesn't adjust the older trainers to take that in mind. They also removed tons of stuff like the challenge levels of contests, several side activities and minigames too. I could probably beat ORAS blindfolded, which I can't really say about any other Pokemon game. XY is pretty easy too but that's mostly due to the EXP share as the game's scaling is pretty fine without it on, since they made the game seemingly with the way it was done with Gen 5 in mind.

Gens 7 is much better when it comes to a reasonable challenge I feel: Base SM is the perfect level of difficulty that isn't too weird or insane, but not mash A either. Pretty much how I wanted the series to go forward difficulty wise, but USUM is a weird oddball in that it's suddenly the old school difficulty with a lot of cheapness thrown in. The main boss of the game even outspeeds your entire team and is likely to be many levels above them too, which is just BS and makes the game not that great. I had to transfer a Level 100 Articuno just to beat him and he even nearly killed it in one hit due to all the stat boosts the game provided him! So if you're wanting a newer game that's harder... That's one option, tho not a great one if you ask me.

SWS is pretty fair like Gen 7, but scales back a tad. It's still reasonable though, limiting yourself to only mons caught in-game and not using candies. The candies let you break the game in half, so it really just lets you get the best of both worlds. I only used candies on my starter, and while he was higher than anyone else, the rest of my team would still have a fair challenge going up against the rivals and gym leaders. I even lost the battle against the champion since somehow not even my candy'd starter could survive a hit from his ace mon, which pleasantly surprised me. I think that one's fine if you know what you're doing.

But yeah, Pokemon difficulty is... weird. It was definitely tougher in some ways back in the 2D days, but some of that felt unintentional or relied on cheapness. I feel RSE, Platinum, and BW2 are the main games that perfect the difficulty curve and manage to still make you think. SM would be the closest 3D Pokemon came to that difficulty curve, with USUM being a (bad) second, and SWS being third while all of Gen 6 is dead last.
 

Roliq

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Sep 23, 2018
6,196
I think the hype about Whitney's Miltank is a bit overblown. Isn't there literally a trade where you can get a Machop in Goldenrod?

I think they do that a lot, where you can catch or obtain a Pokemon with an advantage over the local gym leader very close by. The ice cave being right before Claire is another example of this.
Not only that but is even a female Machop so it can't be affected by Attract
 

Giga Man

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,227
i distinctly remember starter steam-rolling through the entire first 5 or 6 gens so im guessing its really not that hard
I did that in Red and Silver with Blastoise and Typhlosion respectively. As long as you never run from encounters and fight every trainer you see, you're good for the whole game. No grinding necessary.