Nice strawman. ICE existed before we were locking children in cages. Stop normalizing this shit.
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I'm beginning to feel like winning the 2020 election is all that matters, even if we have to 'settle' on a lesser candidate to do so.
- Thread starter Exellus
- Start date
Nice strawman. ICE existed before we were locking children in cages. Stop normalizing this shit.
Which candidates want to abolish ICE? What's uncle Biden's opinion on ICE and immigration?
It will continue as long as ICE is allowed to operate. It happened under the Obama administration as well.
Has Biden said anything at all about freeing the children?
I'm voting blue no matter what. But I think some people here have unrealistic expectations about what this election will do for us.
I lose either way. I have been losing either way with centrists and moderates, whether they call themselves left or right.
And btw, this is not defeatism. Defeatism is thinking America can't do better than Joe fucking Biden.
Winning is all that matters. It's beginning to feel like there will not be a next time. We win or were done.
Yeah but the lemons are rotten
And there are nice juicy oranges right there on the other table.
Yes, but if some jerkoff ate that juicy orange and if your only option is an old lemon. I'm going to make the most out if and not starve to death.
Anyone who's got an issue with the Democratic nominee or their US Senate candidates next year, whoever they turn out to be, can ask themselves if they'd rather have the entire federal court system stacked with Heritage Foundation goons. Hope y'all aren't too attached to abortion or LGBT rights, or any progressive legislation that might get passed or progressive policy that might be undertaken in the next 20 years or so.
See above...or don't since you don't want to actually acknowledge that "Biden will be no different" means "I don't
see the damage being done and only care about drastic change that helps me."
Yes, he has.
I don't even like Biden but the idea that "nothing changes" with a moderate Democrat in office is absurd normalization of where we are considering how bad things have become.
Have people forgot that anti-science corporate exec's are running the EPA into the ground, or that Betsy Devos is "running" education, or that we've expanded the use of private prisons, or that small businesses are dying because of Trumps asinine policies, or that hate crimes have increased dramatically during his time in office, or that red states are continuing to push the boundaries of women's rights now that they're emboldened by a conservative SCOTUS, or that we're turning asylum seekers away and drastically cutting legal immigration?
All of these terrible decisions have wide sweeping ramifications that don't show up in the news, but I guess those facts don't sound as good as promises of drastic change.
Exactly this. Exactly. I wish everyone would understand this. If the infighting continues we aren't winning shit.
Vote for the democrat at all costs even if they aren't perfect. Please.
My point being that the oranges are still good and juicy until the primary ends.
I'll worry about lemons afterwards.
I agree with the general gist, OP, but will caution against the usual implication. i.e. more centrist candidates will not necessarily be the most popular ones with independents in the general election...
Obviously though, once the primary is decided, it's all hands on deck to get the current fuckos out of office. Too much depends on this to allow ourselves to fail
Obviously though, once the primary is decided, it's all hands on deck to get the current fuckos out of office. Too much depends on this to allow ourselves to fail
And minorities stay losing. We have no choice but to toe the line and it fucking sucks.
God I'm so tired of the status quo.
God I'm so tired of the status quo.
I just don't want this fire to burn out for the common people if we get a Democrat in office.
People are mad and tired right now, rightfully so. We shouldn't forget that even if the president isn't Trump anymore. Even if we get a more ideal candidate like Bernie or Warren in office, things won't change overnight. We should take advantage of this anger at the status quo. Organize protests, fundraisers, unions. We can't rely on just the electorate to save us. That's what last night should be as a lesson to us Americans.
I'm voting blue because it's the best chance to reverse these things. But I don't think it's a great chance. After eight years of Obama, a lot of the terrible things of the Bush administration continued. We shouldn't expect only our vote to change things. I want to use the anger and emotion of this primary and begin building bigger movements.
I've been at protests for ICE, gun control, and climate change. I've been donating to Flint and other charities. I campaigned for my local Democrat in 2018. We have to build movements beyond just hoping politicians do the right thing for us.
Change can start with us.
Actually, the average American hates Trump, likes immigration, thinks racism and sexism are big problems, and socialism is much more popular than ever before, so there's a good chance things will just get better if we can weather the current crisis.
I said it back in 2016 that folks have to stop wishing and hoping for that perfect, Goldilocks candidate. Yeah, a super progressive candidate who'd tax the rich, enact universal healthcare and eliminate student debt would be fucking awesome. But that's not happening, at least not now. We have to get there first. It sucks, but you have to look at current matters as a means to an end and take whatever you can get.
Yeah, Biden is a doofus, Bernie is likeable, but honestly way too old, and the other candidates don't inspire confidence. But if electing any one of them means getting rid of Trump and the beginning of getting rid of those Republican assholes, so be it.
Everyone on the left, no matter where you are specifically, needs to come to grips with this idea. If y'all don't, then get ready for more right wing fuckery and more of Trump's bullshit becoming the norm.
Yeah, Biden is a doofus, Bernie is likeable, but honestly way too old, and the other candidates don't inspire confidence. But if electing any one of them means getting rid of Trump and the beginning of getting rid of those Republican assholes, so be it.
Everyone on the left, no matter where you are specifically, needs to come to grips with this idea. If y'all don't, then get ready for more right wing fuckery and more of Trump's bullshit becoming the norm.
Yes. He released an immigration plan this week that explicitly says he will end family separation and long-term detention.
Which you should really have expected, since Biden, like every other primary candidate, is firmly to the left of Barack Obama.
I mean, one might say the person who hasn't actually bothered looking at the candidate's immigration plans is the one more likely to have unrealistic expectations, but never mind. My expectation is that it will keep me and my daughter from being locked in cages ourselves, because that's what Trump wants to do to us. Obviously for a lot of people they just aren't worried about that. Which must be nice!
The cowardice of neoliberal centrism got you Trump. People are completely fed up of the typical establishment politicians that get literally nothing but pro big business things done to the point of voting in a barely sentient orange peel. How do you propose to convince people to go for more of the same? Because from where i'm standing, that's a losing proposition.
While the importance of 2020 can't be understated, I'm more concerned about who comes after Trump on the Republican side. He'll be gone, but his ideas and his base won't be. Trump is an incompetent and cruel buffoon; thankfully, he doesn't possess the tact or intelligence to push through some of his more dangerous ideas. That isn't true of everyone who shares his beliefs. Trump and his cronies exposed many weaknesses in the American system and if we don't work to resolve them, there will come another individual who is far more adept at exploiting the same weaknesses to greater effect.
Ultimately Republicans will stay lock-step with their party and Democrats will not. That's why Trump won. You've gotta play the same game.
Actually people voted in Trump because they're very racist, hope this helps clarify things
this is also something I think about - the seams in the systems are showing and more dangerous wolves are watching.. and waiting
The problem with Democrats, and a lot of other modern center/center-left parties, is not that they have a diverse set of supporters, or that they don't easily fall in line like Republicans. Is that they are supposed to be the party of the left and they are anything but. Republicans know exactly what they are voting for. They are voting for rightwing policies and that's exactly what they get. The Democratic Party is the Nothing Party. Most of their policies are just watered down rightwing policies. They share a lot of the same donors as the Republicans. They are pro business im spite of their constituency. They stifle leftism every single time. They are little more than lite Republicans. No leftist wants that shit.
At least Republicans are honest in their fash ideology.
At least Republicans are honest in their fash ideology.
That as well. Also people are stupid and uneducated. And sexist. And Clinton ain't worth shit. And there are barely any real news, only propaganda. And people are really fed up with neoliberalism. And there's voter suppression. And trolls. And a million other things that your simplistic view won't allow.
Hope this clarifies things a bit more.
But in my honest, bone deep opinion...Trump is getting re-elected. I'm pretty much have very little doubt he'll lose. I'd be shocked if he didn't win.
The fact he even won to begin with should tell you everything. Do you honestly think there will be a paradigm shift in people's minds and sense of values in merely 4 year's time? Hell fucking no. America proved how little empathy it has and a display of shockingly poor judgement in 2016.
Racism, sexism and xenophobia are alive and well, despite what feel good advertising and primetime sitcoms tell you. White America is dumb and willing enough to vote against their own interests, just to have peace of mind, alleviating the false notion that minorities and immigrants are out to get them. They'll gladly throw everyone else under the bus if it means protecting whatever they feel entitled to.
The results from the election in the UK only solidify everything I've said. 2020 is going to be a rude awakening for a lot of you. I expect the absolute worst. First, I tend to be pretty cynical and myopic anyway. Second, I venture outside the bubble that is this forum. GAF didn't have as many barriers as this place, so you did see a lot more difference in opinions, even if some of them were very unfavorable or downright repulsive.
Ultimately, the exposure was a good thing, and helped set realistic and sensible expectations about other people. I'm sorry, but ERA is far too isolated. I'm not saying to tolerate or allow callous insensitivity or hate speech. I understand needing a safe place to express yourself, especially if you're disenfranchised or targeted in some fashion. But don't be so hung up on wanting it, that you ignore what's really happening. You can't just plug your ears and hope things magically go away.
Anyway, I do hope I'm wrong. But I doubt it. I'm doing what I can to mentally buckle up for what is coming. It's not going to be fun, pretty or easy. It's going to get worse before it gets better.
The fact he even won to begin with should tell you everything. Do you honestly think there will be a paradigm shift in people's minds and sense of values in merely 4 year's time? Hell fucking no. America proved how little empathy it has and a display of shockingly poor judgement in 2016.
Racism, sexism and xenophobia are alive and well, despite what feel good advertising and primetime sitcoms tell you. White America is dumb and willing enough to vote against their own interests, just to have peace of mind, alleviating the false notion that minorities and immigrants are out to get them. They'll gladly throw everyone else under the bus if it means protecting whatever they feel entitled to.
The results from the election in the UK only solidify everything I've said. 2020 is going to be a rude awakening for a lot of you. I expect the absolute worst. First, I tend to be pretty cynical and myopic anyway. Second, I venture outside the bubble that is this forum. GAF didn't have as many barriers as this place, so you did see a lot more difference in opinions, even if some of them were very unfavorable or downright repulsive.
Ultimately, the exposure was a good thing, and helped set realistic and sensible expectations about other people. I'm sorry, but ERA is far too isolated. I'm not saying to tolerate or allow callous insensitivity or hate speech. I understand needing a safe place to express yourself, especially if you're disenfranchised or targeted in some fashion. But don't be so hung up on wanting it, that you ignore what's really happening. You can't just plug your ears and hope things magically go away.
Anyway, I do hope I'm wrong. But I doubt it. I'm doing what I can to mentally buckle up for what is coming. It's not going to be fun, pretty or easy. It's going to get worse before it gets better.
There are certainly some Democratic candidates I would prefer about others but I'll be happy if Trump gets beaten. Hopefully Dems also maintain or expand their hold on the House and get at least 51 reps in the Senate.
He would have won WI and MI. The midwest used to be a titan of labor power before this country fucked it.
The problem is the lesser candidate (Biden) only wants 1 term, and will absolutely do nothing to fix the long term problems. He'll set us on the course that Obama and Clinton did, which means in 2024, foreign (and even domestic) money and influence will be as strong if not stronger than ever.
Money needs to be removed from politics. Citizens United MUST be over turned. Candidates need to be funded ONLY by the public options. Until those 2 things happen, we'll never solve our long term political problems only kick them down the road. Every other problem can be tackled in time once corporations and foreign entities no longer have a say in our elections.
Don't get me wrong, I will vote Biden if he's the nominee. I won't abstain or vote for Trump... just know that if Biden gets the nomination, it's a guarantee we will have the same problems we have now only amplified in 2024.
Money needs to be removed from politics. Citizens United MUST be over turned. Candidates need to be funded ONLY by the public options. Until those 2 things happen, we'll never solve our long term political problems only kick them down the road. Every other problem can be tackled in time once corporations and foreign entities no longer have a say in our elections.
Don't get me wrong, I will vote Biden if he's the nominee. I won't abstain or vote for Trump... just know that if Biden gets the nomination, it's a guarantee we will have the same problems we have now only amplified in 2024.
It will all come down to who does the middle feel comfortable voting for. Not just the middle but the middle leaning republicans that just can't stomach Trump but have to. If you put someone too far left against Trump then he will win and get another term. It sucks, and I know I'll get flamed for it, but that's the way it is sadly. Don't kill the messenger.
As for polls saying this person or that person polls well against Trump I think we learned last election that polls are wrong with this guy. It's just like the internet. They will say one thing in person but secretly they do something else.
Get this guy out of office. Get someone closer to the middle to heal the country up a bit and start leaning things back left. Then and only then can you get someone after him that gives you some of the stuff Bernie or Warren propose.
As for polls saying this person or that person polls well against Trump I think we learned last election that polls are wrong with this guy. It's just like the internet. They will say one thing in person but secretly they do something else.
Get this guy out of office. Get someone closer to the middle to heal the country up a bit and start leaning things back left. Then and only then can you get someone after him that gives you some of the stuff Bernie or Warren propose.
I don't completely agree. This is a mindset that obviously narrows who you might support to what you think a broad range of people might want. But in reality people are as apt to being led as they are catered to. I think the best the democrats could do is cooperate over an ambitious policy platform. The difference last time was that Trump crushed his opponents. Infighting within the democrats is more of an issue, in terms of they suffer more in public image for it, not that in actuality it is worse. Biden isn't and shouldnt be that man.
You're right on this. Even if Biden's the nominee, he'll be out of office by 2024.
Controlling the Senate will matter a lot. Prediction: if Biden wins, one of the 5 Republicans on the Supreme Court will croak before 2024. If Thomas dies next year, the SC flips if there's a Dem Senate and BIden.
We need to stop assuming Biden is inevitable. We need to stop assuming that we have to settle to get anywhere. The right didn't 'settle' for Trump, he was hard right and the centrists were swayed. Instead of trying to kick the can down the road and hope that somehow the general populous will change, we should be educating people why we NEED hard left.
We absolutely can and likely WILL end up in a worse place if we elect a centrist now... 2024 will be a blood bath and we'd be thankful to get another Trump versus someone like Trump but competent.
We absolutely can and likely WILL end up in a worse place if we elect a centrist now... 2024 will be a blood bath and we'd be thankful to get another Trump versus someone like Trump but competent.
Those days are long gone man. I live in MN and our northeast part of the state is all mines and was a huge force to the Democratic Party. Large union. It's all Trump now as they convinced Trump saved their industry.
Beating Trump is all that matters, but absolutely no one understand what the electoral dynamics will be in another year's time to be able to say "candidate x can win, candidate y cannot". Let the primary play out, vote for whoever impressed you the most, and fight like hell for whoever wins after that.
OP I agree with you, no matter who the dem candidate is Trump needs to lose. Biden believes in climate change, that is good enough for me.
I just feel like its stil gonna be a repeat of 2016 because of certain people and after reading some of the comments here still feels like certain supporters dont understand the meaning of the lesser of two evils.
I just feel like its stil gonna be a repeat of 2016 because of certain people and after reading some of the comments here still feels like certain supporters dont understand the meaning of the lesser of two evils.