I feel like at it's core it is. This conversation wouldn't even be a thing if tifa had smaller chest. Women are allowed to have large chest without gazes start telling them what is or isn't appropriate to wear and to look like.
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IGN:FF7: Tifa Isn't Getting A Smaller Chest, Just A Proper Bra. (AKA, this is the week gamers learned that sports bras exist)
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
- Start date
No, the bonor culture thing was a guy complaining that non-sexualised designs are wrong and only exist to push an agenda. It's not about anyones right to like arousing designs
And besides, peoples right to buy things that arouse them does not mean that developers and artists should be forced to accommodate them.
They made her breasts relatively more realistic. They need to get over it.
Basically, what Siggy-P said.
There's no big breast shaming here at all. Just a complete lack of understanding how breasts work (and from people, namely women with actual experience with large breasts) and people who know better that are shaming the ignorance.
I don't see that is happening here. i fail to see how it is an improvement, to have developers and artists being told to change their own designs by someone who doesn't even want to play the game. As Square themselves said, they have a department now who's job it is to veto artists and developers, to tell them NOT to give the customers what they wanted.
The fact that Square outright stated it wasn't the developers or artists who wanted the change, that someone else told them to change it, should have been the hint that the one forcing the developers against their will were NOT the gamers.
Eh, having a department that says it is more realistic that an athletic person would wear support is a good thing.
That's not what that department does. it is NOT a "realism" department.
Go back and read the interview, and come back and tell us what that department is called. And then we can continue with this conversation.
That was a mistranslation. But even if it was, the better solution actually came to pass out of any constraints placed on them.
Good "art" doesn't just happen in a vacuum, and giving artists carte-blanche to do whatever they want rarely has the best outcome in a communal project.
If you're an artist, you make the art you've been told to make by higher ups. Every single mechanic I a game was probably made agianst someone's will or wants.
Not every individual in a company gets to make something the way they want. The senior artist in Injsutice 2 wanted to hyper sexualise everything but wasn't allowed to.
That ethics team is part of the development process and this is how the game has ended up.
Consumers want a great game, with great visuals, soundtrack and combat. People who cares about bras are a loud minority on twitter.
And there's nothing wrong with someone saying to the devs "guys, exaggerated sexualization is bad"
There are already thousands of games where women are forced to run around without proper support.
Square-Enix doesn't want to add to the pile.
That's all there is to it.
View this as part of the aftermath of GamerGate and you'll then know your answer to why this is a thing.
Welcome to the age of right-wing populism.
No, I am telling you that you can't claim it was artists and programers who want the change when they were not the ones who made the decision. i simply want to set the facts straight that they were forced by outside forces and it was not what the developers wanted.
It is wrong when the person making the decision, is not making the game not want to play the game. if the person is not making the product, and not consuming the product, why is that person making the decision at all?
Do you know why for a short time, Alfred in Batman was replaced with a Woman in Batman comics and in the old TV series? Because homophobic moral committee members decided that three men should not live alone together without a female present. So Alfred was replaced with a Matron, is that "nothing wrong" to you as well?
It was not outside forces, it was an internal square enix department.
And the Alfred comparison is an awful one. Like holy shit, implying homophobia is the same as the publisher not wanting absurdly inhuman boobs physics and the connotations that come with it
Edit: and the best thing ofcourse is that nothing in the interview implies the artists had a problem with the boobs being made realistic. That's a baseless assumption on your part. Nomura said the artists wanted to modernise her and that the ethics team suggested making the bra more realistic.
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I simply want to correct the implication that the game developers made the decision to improve their game. They made the changes because an outside department, a moral committee, tell them to change it. The same kind of moral Committee that decided Batman needed to be distanced from any possible implication of not being a straight male.
Square told us outright that the game developers didn't do this of their own free will. You can accept it or not, but those are the facts. So don't tell me the game developers are somehow being forced by their customers to do anything.
I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where the developers claimed that they wanted Tifa's breasts to flop around like water balloons, but big bad S-E said no way. Their intended vision has thus been utterly compromised, and the game is now a shadow of its former self.
...
Do you seriously want to die on this lame-ass hill?
Go back and read the original interview. I am not dying on any hill. A department separate to game development, told them to change what they had. That's what Square told us. You are free to deny this, but it is what they stated.
What a weird discussion. I mean, you can be bummed because of design decisions and not like the changes. But this in depth discussion because of breasts is just hilarious. Sports bra has not been mentioned in the lore.... How do people even discuss this with a straight face?
Also, where was the outrage about serious issues like the downgraded butt of Chloe from UC2 to UC4? It had REAL effects of my enjoyment of the multi-player mode.
Also, where was the outrage about serious issues like the downgraded butt of Chloe from UC2 to UC4? It had REAL effects of my enjoyment of the multi-player mode.
Read the article linked in the OP. Nomura says the developers wanted to modernise it, and as part of that the ethics team said they should make the bra more realistic.
There is nothing. Nothing at all. To imply they were being forced or didn't want to do it.
That it somthing you're pulling out of thin air.
Isn't it pretty normal for devs to get feedback to check their work is coming across the way they intended? I actually though that was normal for pretty much all creative processes, as being close to work and knowing how you intend something to come across can mean you don't notice if it's not actually doing that.
You must have missed the part concerning the "Ethics Department".
As in, a department that is unrelated to making games.
I am sure Adam West appreciate the feedback that Batman being possibly Gay is unacceptable, by his own Ethics Department.
Fun idea: anyone who has issues with Tifa's sports bra should be forced to have boobs and run up/down stairs for about an hour or two before sharing their opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I love shedding my bra off at the end of the day as much as the next girl...but there's no way I'd be as physically active if it weren't for mid- and high-impact sports bras. I'd definitely want to be "restricted" while performing that Limit Break chain!
Don't get me wrong, I love shedding my bra off at the end of the day as much as the next girl...but there's no way I'd be as physically active if it weren't for mid- and high-impact sports bras. I'd definitely want to be "restricted" while performing that Limit Break chain!
So nothing then?
There is nothing to say or imply they ahd a problem with that ethics department. In fact he seems happy enough with the final design to talk about it openly and the improvements they aimed for and the department helped them with.
Feedback is always needed for creative processes and will always happen becuase it's something that creative people will seek out - sometimes people are shitty and will give feedback that is homophobic like saying Batman can't be gay or having a fit if a boob size looks slightly smaller as they reduced character to basically their boobs . Not all feedback is created equal and you know this which is why you are disengeniously comparing a homophobic piece of feedback about batman to a feedback in this case which was basically, let's not include boob physics which are unrealistic and have an atheletic character wear a realistic support. You know they aren't the same. One is based on fear and spreading hatred, the other is trying to treat a group of people with respect.
Yes, I'm sure in 50 years we'll look back at this and go, "Could you believe someone told the developers they should give Tifa a sports bra to make it more realistic? Thank God we've moved past such backwards views..."
Dude, just admit that you're sad that the tits won't be flapping in the wind like a flag on a crisp summer day
I can't believe people are complaining about the EVIL ethics department. The thing that stops game developers from making another Custer's Revenge.
You do know game studios have several departments pertaining to different tasks in the making of a game?
Whether it's the ethics departments, marketing, sales, technical, design, graphics or whatever in the studio. Don't try to call that an outside force or negate their feedback by saying they're unrelated to making games, because it's not some entity outside of Square Enix that changed their minds or gave them feedback. Because you would be pretty naive and disingenuous by saying that.
Moreover, this was the result of the Ethics department chiming in and giving their thoughts on that specific character, which may have come from a review by them or the character designers consulting them.
Moreover, see this as a logical and positive step, because it makes sense to have this change when you put the character in context. It's even stated in the interview:
You know, when you, like, you grab a woman's breast and it's... and you feel it and... it feels like a bag of sand when you're touching it.
But I'm all seriousness, this whole "debate" is pathetic on a philosophical level that even the greatest minds can not reconcile. There are people online right now, spending the few precious seconds they have on this infinite spinning world, devoting their brain power, feelings, and emotions to being upset that a digital video game character appears to have her breast size reduced.
It truly is marvellous in its sadness.
User banned (Permanent): concern trolling over series of posts, prior severe infractions
It seems people literally don't know what I am talking about. It's almost like no one remembered what it was like with an Ethics department in the 70's and 80's. And what they did.
Your mistake is assuming that Ethics Departments are Progressive, when all through out history they are Conservative with a capital C.
Do you know that in old films, women are not allowed to sit on beds without at least one foot on the floor at all times? And that there are time limits (in seconds) on how long a kiss could last in a single film shot? Those were invented by the wonderful Ethics Department.
Yes, I'm sure those are the reasons people worry about the ethics department by using them as a scapegoat to whine about a fictional character's bust size.
Fucking ethics department though. Won't they please let the not hinder the artists' vision? Like with this artsy, deep, and profound line right here:
Can you imagine what the EVIIIIIIIL ethics department would do to massacre line?
/s
These are insane ramblings. What horrible thing did this particular department do? We aren't talking about decades old past examples of ethics departments in Hollywood. We are talking about tifa wearing a sports bra. A pretty great change for her design.
Oh man, I don't remember this bit at all. Come to think about it, I don't think I've seen the old R word used in a video game before. Let alone something like FF.Yes, I'm sure those are the reasons people worry about the ethics department by using them as a scapegoat to whine about a fictional character's bust size.
Fucking ethics department though. Won't they please let the not hinder the artists' vision? Like with this artsy, deep, and profound line right here:
Can you imagine what the EVIIIIIIIL ethics department would do to massacre line?
/s
I thought that much was obvious? Christ, these people are beyond embarrassing.
Kinda wish Square went one step further and replaced Tifa's skirt with shorts--always thought it was a little ridiculous her pulling off acrobatic techniques, while being limited in a mini-skirt.
Kinda wish Square went one step further and replaced Tifa's skirt with shorts--always thought it was a little ridiculous her pulling off acrobatic techniques, while being limited in a mini-skirt.
And I'm really glad they did that--I just would rather they completely get rid of it, as it now feels a little redundant, but I can live with it.
They are the same; a department to decide what is or isn't "proper", which goes beyond what was illegal and into what they want to deem appropriate for the audience. I am very happy to have a legal department, or even a PR department, telling game directors what to do. But Ethics? Ethics Department is what caused most of the discrimination in the entirety of entertainment history. And just because you somehow AGREED to what the department did this time, doesn't mean it is right for you to think the department was doing the appropriate thing. The entire basis of an Ethics Department is to ban what isn't actually illegal.
You are trying to argue that it is fine if the department did something you personally agree with. I am trying to ague that the department's very existence is a travesty. Ethics departments deciding on dress code of game characters is exactly what the old Ethics Departments did 40 years ago with film and comics.
Them wanting a realistic portrayal instead of going hard with the anime fan service is being conservative? Thats like saying horror movies that don't show nudity are subpar because the genre had that heavily during its peak popularity. Idk, it's just such a small thing to get hung up on and it's borderline embarrassing that people are upset and screaming censorship.
You're freaking out because SE's Ethics Department has the word "ethics" in it (I'd really like to get a second translation on that) and are using it to fear-monger over completely unrelated American culture panics. Giving Tifa a sports bra and maybe shrinking her breasts a tad is not equivalent and you're being either super naive or super disingenuous to continually argue otherwise.
I had no idea the thing we humans all need to really fear are ethics departments. Wow. I've been enlightened. We should take to the streets and take down the New World Ethics Department that has been controlling our thoughts and boobies.
From how I understand is the ethics department concerned with keeping the game within the targeted age rating. I assume their concern was that if there's a little breast jiggle the ESRB or Cero will give it a higher age rating. I think it's kind of silly that breast movement would increase the age rating but that's on the ESRB who tends to rate sexual content much higher than the german usk for example.
It's their own ethics department and they're more of an advisory group(so they don't go past a certain rating). They've also had one for a while. So chill out.
All it amounts to is not having Tifa's tits jiggle all over the place when she fights hence the sports bra.
