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Saucycarpdog

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Oct 25, 2017
16,311
www.ign.com

Do Wonder Woman Movies Really Need a Big Fight at the End? - IGN

Based on Wonder Woman and Wonder Woman 1984, maybe final bosses should take some time off in the Patty Jenkins DC movies.
Across most of the first Wonder Woman's runtime, Diana is convinced that her half-brother Ares, the God of War, is entirely responsible for World War I. Simplifying such a complicated conflict as that war is repeatedly used as an example of her naivete about the outside world, and overcoming that is positioned as the "lesson" of the movie given how the finale is structured. Diana, pursuing her mission with dogmatic determination, corners General Ludendorff (who she believes to be Ares in disguise), kills him, and… nothing changes. The war is still on, and in her subsequent conversation with Steve Trevor, he says, "You don't think I wish I could tell you that it was one bad guy to blame?" In that moment, Diana's childhood worldview of mankind being innately good is shattered, finally opening up a chance for her to mature.

Except only a few minutes later, Ares actually does show up and reveals that he was, in fact, responsible for the war and Diana was right the entire time. In terms of function, this twist allows for Diana to have a big final physical challenge against one of her most prolific enemies from the comics; in effect, it negates Diana's growth by saying she wasn't wrong for believing that one ultimate villain was behind all the chaos and suffering she's witnessed on her journey -- she was simply wrong about who said ultimate villain was. Ares tries to argue that he only gives men ideas for weapons and doesn't make them use them, but this doesn't change that Diana's initial "hunt down and kill one bad guy" plan still winds up solving her problems.
In Wonder Woman 1984, the big moral question of the story is whether or not Diana is willing to give up Steve, who has been brought back to life by a wish from the Dreamstone. She is finally reunited with the man she loves, but by keeping him, she loses her superpowers, making her incapable of stopping Max Lord from ruining the world with his endless granting of wishes. So Diana chooses to give up Steve to regain her powers so she can then thwart the bad guy and save the world. That all tracks, right? On paper it does, except there's one roadblock on the way: First she needs to fight Barbara Minerva, aka the Cheetah. Like with Ares, Cheetah is there to provide Diana a physical opponent she needs to overcome. Unlike the Ares battle, the problem with the fight isn't that it's antithetical, but that it's superfluous.

Diana isn't challenged by this fight in any way. Not physically, because with Wonder Woman's powers and Asteria's golden armor Cheetah is clearly outmatched. Not emotionally, because the film all but abandons any interest in the burgeoning dynamic between Diana and Barbara by the time Steve is revived, leaving their relationship too muddied and undefined to be the basis of conflict between them. And certainly not morally, because she's already proven her moral integrity before the fight begins. It's not like Diana tries to cheat the wishing curse by using the golden armor without her powers, or tries and fails to defeat the villains in a vain attempt to keep Steve. She has already made the morally correct choice that this fight could have hypothetically forced upon her. Thus, instead of feeling like a vital part of the story, the fight plays more like an obligation of the genre.
While it may seem strange for both movies to run into this same issue, it makes a certain amount of sense given Patty Jenkins' sensibilities. Her strengths and interests as the main creative force behind this franchise appear to be in presenting Diana's compassion, empathy and sense of duty to protect others rather than her ability to crush bad guys. Compared to blasting Ares to smithereens or electrocuting Cheetah into submission, consider how much more impactful moments are like Diana choosing to not stand by as people suffer at No Man's Land, sparing Doctor Poison after Steve's death, or breaking through to Max Lord by convincing him to go back to his son. Jenkins even made a commitment to non-lethal violence a significant part of Diana's characterization for the sequel.

Yet the realities of big-budget filmmaking is that there are certain expectations that have to be met. Jenkins recently admitted to IGN that the studio made her change the ending of the first film to include a large fight scene. To be clear, Diana fighting supervillains in bombastic action scenes isn't in itself the problem. It would be rather strange to not have any action in what we know is an action movie. But hopefully for the already-announced Wonder Woman 3, Patty Jenkins and whoever else ends up working on the film can find a way to more naturally weave that action into the finale without contradicting the themes or breaking the structure of the movie, because so far these final battles have felt incongruous with what the rest of the movies are going for.
 
Oct 29, 2017
6,251
I ask this about a lot of big comic book movies--it feels like a tax the writers have to pay to the studio heads--but it's ESPECIALLY glaring in the WW films.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Do any comic book films, 9/10 of them are just the same as Wonder Woman which is bad, don't get me wrong but a lot of them are so dull and please end soon, perhaps more blockbuster than detrimental every time.
 
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Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,731
I personally wouldn't really mind a subversion of this trope, but I feel like it's expected from larger audiences. You have the whole movie that essentially builds up to a final confrontation, and we're talking about superheroes - people who have extraordinary physical abilities - so it makes perfect sense for a final conflict to involve that somehow.
 

SxP

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Oct 27, 2017
2,867
Most movies with budgets like WW1984 are formulaic to a fault. It's just "safer". Which is what matters with these huge budgets.
 

Deleted member 1698

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
4,254
You can't just have a long trash movie, stick a big fight at the end and expect people to enjoy it... if it isn't marvel.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,405
I feel like the obligatory "big final fight" is often the worst part of these films. Black Panther is an example that springs to mind.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
115,549
It'd be nice if the occasional superhero movie could do a lower-impact finale, but Gal Gadot doesn't have the acting talent necessary to pull something like that off. A better lead actress absolutely could.
 

Sibersk Esto

Changed the hierarchy of thread titles
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Oct 25, 2017
16,491
After Superman Returns didn't have a big fight and that became a big talking point, studios are never going to do it again
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,959
For superhero films, there pretty much has to be a fight or a huge final setpiece otherwise general audiences would find it anticlimatic and would be like "thats it?"

I think the issue i have with the fights is that most are just uninspired cgi slugfests, if they were more creative with good staging and choreography, I probably wouldn't mind so much.
 

Watchtower

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Oct 27, 2017
11,640
I honestly think this is a mislabeling of how WW84's ending is set up. The climactic finish of WW 2017 is Diana's battle with Ares. The climactic finish of WW84, however, isn't Diana's battle with Cheetah, it's her confrontation with Max Lord.

If anything WW84 clearly learned this lesson from the first movie. The first movie worms Ares in as The Man Behind The Man (and thus the Big Bad), the final boss, and the central thematic crux. It weakens the movie's moral - she learns that the horrors of war and humanity are complex, not the mere machinations of one man....and then it turns out nope, Ares is behind it all actually, gotta go punch him in the face. WW84 creates two villains, Max Lord to be the thematic crux and Cheetah to be the "final boss". With that the movie can have its big ending fight scene, then can have the actual final confrontation be purely non-violent because it's already checked the "big fight" box and doesn't need to do it again.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
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Oct 25, 2017
20,680
I don't mind films that resolve in different ways, but I'm not paying money for a superhero film or a kaiju film and expecting them to hash shit out in the marketplace of ideas.
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
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Oct 28, 2017
10,664
Nope. Ruined the villain in the first movie. And the fight at the end of the second movie is legitimately one of the worst fight scenes that I have ever seen.
 

Stat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,158
I don't mind films that resolve in different ways, but I'm not paying money for a superhero film or a kaiju film and expecting them to hash shit out in the marketplace of ideas.
lol I agree.

WW1984's biggest faults weren't the final battle (though it was up there). It needed a better script entirely. Cause let's be real, the "big boss battle" was that "Everyone renounce their wishes" bs.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,213
There's three superheroes that should be able to avoid having the bombastic fight at the end: Superman, Wonder Woman, and Captain America. Of course you can have your bigass destructive fight, but those three don't always need one at the end.
 

Watchtower

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Oct 27, 2017
11,640
That's why I love Doctor Strange. Beat the last boss with logic.

See this is the thing, WW84 actually follows the Dr. Strange notes quite well. Because Dr. Strange does have a big final fight scene: the entire Hong Kong segment with him and Wong vs. Kaecilius.

Diana reaching out with her lasso at Ultra Max Lord, using him and the lasso's powers to convince him and the world to renounce their wishes? That's supposed to be her "I've come to bargain" moment.
 

Azerth

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
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Oct 27, 2017
6,176
as long as its done in a good way people wont mind ww84 wasn't done in a good way so people complained
 

VAD

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Oct 28, 2017
5,518
Since Iron Man 2 final fights are lame. Doctor Strange is the gold standard for final confrontation. No violence, just wit.
 

Htown

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Oct 25, 2017
11,318
nothing wrong with a big final fight in a movie

just... actually have a script that supports it?
 

TheDarkKnight

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Oct 25, 2017
7,525
What was the big battle at the end? The cheetah fight was pretty quick and the "fight" with Max was just talking
 

WillyFive

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
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See this is the thing, WW84 actually follows the Dr. Strange notes quite well. Because Dr. Strange does have a big final fight scene: the entire Hong Kong segment with him and Wong vs. Kaecilius.

That's not the big final fight scene. They are the mooks that he needs to defeat before he can get to the final battle.

Kinda like Superman 2 (especially the Donner Cut), the big New York fight is not the actual final fight; the final battle happens in his fortress where he tricks Zod into losing his powers.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,264
See this is the thing, WW84 actually follows the Dr. Strange notes quite well. Because Dr. Strange does have a big final fight scene: the entire Hong Kong segment with him and Wong vs. Kaecilius.

Diana reaching out with her lasso at Ultra Max Lord, using him and the lasso's powers to convince him and the world to renounce their wishes? That's supposed to be her "I've come to bargain" moment.

Yeah, there is a final fight with Cheetah but the movie doesn't hang it like with Ares. This was the superman-level hero movie finale done right.
 

JayCB64

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Oct 25, 2017
10,984
Wales
Not all comic book movies need it, but that was the least of WW84's problems. I think a percentage of the general audience struggles without pretty constant action and instant gratification though, there were some comments from people watching WandaVision that seemed angry that they didn't lay out exactly what is going on and explode some buildings in the first episode.
 

Deleted member 52442

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Not delivering on this is a one way ticket to a divisive "is subversion always good" type movie, which isnt necessarily a bad thing but eh
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,034
Is Dark Knight like the most popular superhero example of subverting this? The actual climatic scene us the confrontation between Harvey Dent, Gordon, and Batman. There of course is the whole hostage sequence beforehand with the Joker but the emotional climax is the heavy, dark, and dialogue focused standoff against Two Face.
 

J_Viper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,715
There's a reason why this is still one of the best comic final boss fights


It's simple. The hero and villain battle it on 1v1, no laser beam shooting into the sky, no CGI monsters, etc.

Civil War handled this brilliantly as well.
 

SageShinigami

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Oct 27, 2017
30,461
Since Iron Man 2 final fights are lame. Doctor Strange is the gold standard for final confrontation. No violence, just wit.

That "wit" only works because you didn't think hard about it, and people wanted something different SO badly.

I want my final fights. Just have to get creative in the execution.

Ultimately creativity is what's lacking. If they did a bunch of superhero films that didn't end in a final fight, then THAT would become the new complaint.
 

Watchtower

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Oct 27, 2017
11,640
That's not the big final fight scene. They are the mooks that he needs to defeat before he can get to the final battle.

So I can't help but feel labeling Kaecilius as just "the head mook" is being overly reductive. Like, he does all of the things, his betrayal of the Ancient One is the main narrative crux, he's played by Mads fuckin' Mikkelsen for God's sake. If anything Dormammu's more like an outside-context problem, a massive cosmic threat that Kaecilius has spent the whole movie freeing and has to get thrown back in his bottle.

Though taking that approach, Ludendorff and Dr. Poison arguably take the same role in WW, except they're not serving Ares. They kinda get lost in the way side, as their whole point is to subvert that very point, to prove their is no grand master and that humans are just that capable of evil....except it then subverts again with Ares actually being the puppet master all along, and IT'S BEEN REMUS THIS ENTIRE TIME WHAAAAAAAA

Like, no one's calling the main villain of WW84 the Duke of Deception, y'know what I mean?
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
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CT
I haven't seen WW84, but I've been on the soap box since day 1 that WW was made a lot worse by having Aries show up in the finale to fight WW. The theme of the story would have paid off so much better if Aries didn't exist and Diana had to accept the reality that humans are just stupid, awful beings.
 

kowhite

Member
May 14, 2019
4,388
Wonder Woman was lesser cause of that Ares fight at the end. Honestly though, it was more the execution than it existing.

Wonder WOman 1984...that movie went south way before the Cheetah fight. Hardly the main problem with that movie (but certainly not executed well).

That being said I do like my action and explosions. I'm not inherently annoyed by this formula.
 

BlackJace

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,450
I don't mind this trope, but the execution is getting samey and tiresome. No more giant blue lasers firing into the sky please.

I'd prefer a one on one away from the highly populated cityscapes and the fight itself needs to be more visceral instead of shooting beams at each other at a distance.
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
The original Wonder Woman might very well have been my favorite comic book movie if they had cut the Ares part and found a better way to bring it home.

WW84 is probably better for having the dumb pointless fight, just because it's as close as the movie ever gets to making any sense.
 

2CL4Mars

Member
Nov 9, 2018
1,710
No, the don't. They suffer from the same issue as games do. In that game developers feels that if combat isn't a part of every aspect of a game then the people playing will get bored and stop playing. While that may be the case for a percentage of player it's not universal.
Meaning that people involved in movie making think that action is the biggest part of a super hero movie and don't consider the characters and their relationship and the drama that comes from it and that a big action set piece needs to happen at the end to satisfy the viewer. Then again for some that may be true yet I don't think they are in a majority.

And I'm not saying action isn't important but sometimes the studios rely on it a bit too much and prioritize it over anything else.
 

hiredhand

Member
Feb 6, 2019
3,148
I don't think superhero films need to end in a boss fight but they probably have to end in some kind of action scene. They are essentially action films after all. I really liked the funhouse finale of Birds of Prey and that didn't involve any kind of CGI boss monster.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 27, 2017
16,351
Most movies with budgets like WW1984 are formulaic to a fault. It's just "safer". Which is what matters with these huge budgets.

It's not like Captain marvel lacking a major boss fight for her at the end hurt the movie at all, in terms of story or box office success.

It just takes a more well planned movie to do that. And we've all heard all the problems with WW84