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If Stadia and/or xCloud truly works why would I play on a console or PC going forward?
- Thread starter Parenegade
- Start date
Graphics (bitrate), latency. Cloud shit is already here, I've already played around Nvidia GeForce now and PS now, not a fan at all.
Any argument I would've made has already been addressed. I would just bring up how much it would fuck over gaming preservation more when it is already a difficult task.
Going to bump this too and I and several friends of mine can relate to this.
If you don't care about platform exclusives, don't watch Digital Foundry videos, or haven't ever considered input lag when buying a TV, then I can see why Stadia would be appealing.
I think it will make a lot of sense to the kinds of players who don't get excited about new hardware, and will pick up a next-gen console 2-3 years after its launch when a game they want isn't available on what they own.
I think it will make a lot of sense to the kinds of players who don't get excited about new hardware, and will pick up a next-gen console 2-3 years after its launch when a game they want isn't available on what they own.
For me if it works and if the price proposition is sound (both of those are TBD determined right now) I'm probably going to be all in on a streaming service. Getting out of the console & PC upgrade cycles is highly appealing to me, being able to play next gen games at no or low (if going with the Chromecast and/or controller route) cost is a lot better than spending $400-500.
I recognize many people care about the issues Sankara raised in their post but for me they are either things I don't care about or are already exposed to in some way.
I recognize many people care about the issues Sankara raised in their post but for me they are either things I don't care about or are already exposed to in some way.
No way a streaming game will feel the same as a local game, no way.
Even if we assume that it feels the same, the performance of the game is not in your hand:
no internet = you cannot play
Spikes in internet = performance hit
Problem from the source server = cannot play
End of subscription = cannot play
Morover, there is additional costs if you have Data caps.
Even if we assume that it feels the same, the performance of the game is not in your hand:
no internet = you cannot play
Spikes in internet = performance hit
Problem from the source server = cannot play
End of subscription = cannot play
Morover, there is additional costs if you have Data caps.
Intuitively: you're going to have a hard time convincing me that a consumer device is more energy effient and has a more sustainable power source than a mass scale data centre
Financially: at scale there is huge incentive for MS (and other cloud providers) to absolutely minimise power inefficiency - power is money and that adds up fast at scale
Evidentlially: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-gb/global-infrastructure/ - MS is carbon neutral
-Everybody and their mother is going to want in on the so-called "streaming future," so expect multiple subscriptions in order to have access to even a decent number of exclusives.
-Want to play a game after a long day? Too bad, the latest AAA blockbuster just hit and servers are full everywhere, you're either going to be stuck in a queue, redirected to a server in another time zone, or both.
-Or even better, want to play an indie title that released a few years ago? Nobody plays it anymore, so that's on a server halfway across the world. It's either going to have to be cloned onto a server nearby (you're going to have to wait a while, depending on the connection between the two servers) or you're going to have to deal with poor performance.
-There's no such thing as a free lunch, so even if the service you're subscribed to has a free option with reduced features and IQ, you're going to be fed ads in some way.
EDIT:-Steaming services may advertise higher framerates and resolutions, but will they enforce these features? What if the game you're playing is locked to 4k/60 fps maximum, and you have an 8k/120hz monitor?
-What if a streaming services updates their hardware/software and your game is suddenly incompatible?
Honestly, an all-streaming future is a nightmare scenario, even without taking into account bandwidth or latency.
-Want to play a game after a long day? Too bad, the latest AAA blockbuster just hit and servers are full everywhere, you're either going to be stuck in a queue, redirected to a server in another time zone, or both.
-Or even better, want to play an indie title that released a few years ago? Nobody plays it anymore, so that's on a server halfway across the world. It's either going to have to be cloned onto a server nearby (you're going to have to wait a while, depending on the connection between the two servers) or you're going to have to deal with poor performance.
-There's no such thing as a free lunch, so even if the service you're subscribed to has a free option with reduced features and IQ, you're going to be fed ads in some way.
EDIT:-Steaming services may advertise higher framerates and resolutions, but will they enforce these features? What if the game you're playing is locked to 4k/60 fps maximum, and you have an 8k/120hz monitor?
-What if a streaming services updates their hardware/software and your game is suddenly incompatible?
Honestly, an all-streaming future is a nightmare scenario, even without taking into account bandwidth or latency.
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I completely agree with you here. Game time is indeed at a premium when you get older, as many of us can barely finish a game per month (or 2, 3,4 ...).
It is very rare that I buy games at launch, as I'm always so behind. When I do, most of the time I end up paying $20~40. I have no reason to pay a monthly fee for Stadia on top of paying full price for game. Even if it becomes a "Netflix of gaming", where we pay $50 or so per month and have access to its entire library.. why would I pay it if I don''t even have time to wrap a single game in one month?
Besides, in the few hours I have to game per week I definitely don't want to worry about my connection or dealing with lag. Imagine finally having some hours off on a Friday night after an intense week of work and not being able to play due to internet issues.
I think one of the main issues would be service disruptions, like what happened with PSN today. When PSN/Xbox Live goes down, you can still play your games. If this happens to Stadia/xCloud, then I would imagine you won't be able to play anything.
This is why I'm hesitant. I use Bell, and they go down once a week, anywhere from hours to a day, for whatever reason. No internet, no streaming, no games.
This is why I'm hesitant. I use Bell, and they go down once a week, anywhere from hours to a day, for whatever reason. No internet, no streaming, no games.
It'll cost me £25 a month if i want to play Division 2 at 4K/60( ubi sub/Stadia sub).... Cant mod it, Cant lend it anyone, Cant sell it, Might cut out on me, Will probably lose picture quality when others in the house use the internet, Not even sure what happens too it if i dont pay the 4K sub.
Or i could just buy it on console/PC and not worry about any of that.
Or i could just buy it on console/PC and not worry about any of that.
You have no reason to. Congratulations! You are part of their main demo and will probably love this thing.
I personally like owning my games and modding them as I see fit. Not passing up on either. You do you and enjoy yourself.
I personally like owning my games and modding them as I see fit. Not passing up on either. You do you and enjoy yourself.
As someone who used Nvidias equivalent to this for 6 or more months, honestly it was good, very good but not without some issues, take a look.
- Internet Glitches if this happened gave the game glitches, in some cases it would have a little connection bar like a mobile would & sometimes would lose signal & disconnect you from the game server
- Used Quite a bit of Bandwidth
- if your internet is down, no gaming
- if their servers are down no gaming
- Nvidia time limit it was 4 hours straight play then you had to save if you were able too, probably to free up server time/space for others users, though you were allowed to reconnect for another session right away.
- Needed a solid 5ghz WiFi connection, 2.4ghz Wi-Fi forget it, Ethernet cable direct is going to give you the best option, so in some cases you may need to upgrade your router or Ethernet solutions.
- Have to purchase the Game (best part about Nvidias was their game loud used a steam client in the cloud on a virtual P.C exactly like stadia, but using Steam instead of google so even if Nvidias GeForce shuts down permanently I just load up steam on a p.c & boom play direct from my library like I u always did, i.e I still own the games on steam, that's far superior to google because we know Steam is still a thing for now, how long will Google's stadias games last! Will you lose access to them if they go down)
- Nvidias went from £7.99 per month to Free - The others charge
- Internet Glitches if this happened gave the game glitches, in some cases it would have a little connection bar like a mobile would & sometimes would lose signal & disconnect you from the game server
- Used Quite a bit of Bandwidth
- if your internet is down, no gaming
- if their servers are down no gaming
- Nvidia time limit it was 4 hours straight play then you had to save if you were able too, probably to free up server time/space for others users, though you were allowed to reconnect for another session right away.
- Needed a solid 5ghz WiFi connection, 2.4ghz Wi-Fi forget it, Ethernet cable direct is going to give you the best option, so in some cases you may need to upgrade your router or Ethernet solutions.
- Have to purchase the Game (best part about Nvidias was their game loud used a steam client in the cloud on a virtual P.C exactly like stadia, but using Steam instead of google so even if Nvidias GeForce shuts down permanently I just load up steam on a p.c & boom play direct from my library like I u always did, i.e I still own the games on steam, that's far superior to google because we know Steam is still a thing for now, how long will Google's stadias games last! Will you lose access to them if they go down)
- Nvidias went from £7.99 per month to Free - The others charge
The day the those three points are true is the day I fully abandon local PC or console gaming. Streaming in my eyes is the future. No waiting on install times, ability to play anywhere on any device. It's a potential Netflix moment for gaming and I'm all in.
But people will have concerns over ownership, modding and offline play among many other things.
In my eyes the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, but I understand where people are coming from.
But people will have concerns over ownership, modding and offline play among many other things.
In my eyes the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, but I understand where people are coming from.
I'm fine with the people who want to have streaming as an option but if it ever replaces the normal means I've got a fine set of games to replay until I die.
The idea of paying a monthly sub fee on top of paying for the game is silly when I do the math in my head. Even publisher specific shops like Ubisofts thing is so silly to me. To imagine paying 180 dollars a year to play maybe one or two games on them. Maybe other people get the value out of it and I'm happy for them, but subscriptions are another way for pubs to nickel and dime people to me.
Nothing I've seen out of the western market or AAA industry (Or ISPs for that matter) in general leads me to believe that with the way the internet is being run now, and with the way gaming is being run now, that any of these things will be to the benefit of the consumer. I'm happy for the people who don't have to think about that, like OP with no data caps and such, but I'd rather pay 200-300 and get a console that lasts me years at a time than pay 180 a month with a vague promise of "content" down the line.
The idea of paying a monthly sub fee on top of paying for the game is silly when I do the math in my head. Even publisher specific shops like Ubisofts thing is so silly to me. To imagine paying 180 dollars a year to play maybe one or two games on them. Maybe other people get the value out of it and I'm happy for them, but subscriptions are another way for pubs to nickel and dime people to me.
Nothing I've seen out of the western market or AAA industry (Or ISPs for that matter) in general leads me to believe that with the way the internet is being run now, and with the way gaming is being run now, that any of these things will be to the benefit of the consumer. I'm happy for the people who don't have to think about that, like OP with no data caps and such, but I'd rather pay 200-300 and get a console that lasts me years at a time than pay 180 a month with a vague promise of "content" down the line.
Nintendo games.
PSN went down today, how fun will it be when your streaming service goes down after you've had a busy day at work and instead of being able to relax for the night playing a fun game you're just faced with an error screen and no other gaming alternative.
PSN went down today, how fun will it be when your streaming service goes down after you've had a busy day at work and instead of being able to relax for the night playing a fun game you're just faced with an error screen and no other gaming alternative.
First few posts on point. Streaming is wonderful as an option and I think as many people should be able to play how they want. But if streaming ever becomes the only option then gaming as we know it is dead. First post sums it up quite well
What is the max framerate? Will it support 144hz or 165hz or 200hz or 240hz? Probably may have been asked and answered already. sorry about that.
If everything works as you describe, then yeah there's no reason to own local hardware. If nothing works as advertised, no one's going to want it. But I think the reality is between the two. For the foreseeable future, I think streaming is going to be a somewhat compromised experience, either via latency or compression or data caps or ...
I see Stadia and xCloud as approaching this differently, Stadia is "let's replace high priced PCs" while xCloud is "let's expand the places people can play." xCloud doesn't want to replace the Xbox, it wants to be in addition to it, allowing you to play when you can't be home in front of your TV. Which approach you prefer really depends on how soon you think they can hit the platonic ideal you describe.
I see Stadia and xCloud as approaching this differently, Stadia is "let's replace high priced PCs" while xCloud is "let's expand the places people can play." xCloud doesn't want to replace the Xbox, it wants to be in addition to it, allowing you to play when you can't be home in front of your TV. Which approach you prefer really depends on how soon you think they can hit the platonic ideal you describe.
I think that probably depends on the person. Gaming is my favorite hobby but it's not my only hobby so if the servers were having an issue one night I would just do something else. If it was something that happened frequently then yes that would be an issue but if it's a relatively uncommon occurrence I don't see it being a big deal.
Knowing myself, 35 years old, I rarely play console games anymore. nor do I want to keep upgrading my computer since I dont have the time to be honest. I rather skip the big upfront cost and pay 10 bucks a month and a game from time to time. Even the PS5/next Xbox arent getting me exited anymore and I doubt I can justify paying for one just for the two or three games I will buy for it. So especially with most titles being Multiplatform, stadia looks like a pretty attractive solution for me. Heck I can just load it up on my Ipad in my lap, with controller in hand and play an hour in bed before sleep or something and then continue on my home office PC, or on the couch at the big TV.
Because if they shut down you'll lose access to all your games, have they talked about what would happen (especially given their track record on long term support). If they shut it down?
Also what about third party softwares. A closed PC ecosystem. Isn't a PC ecosystem.
Also what about third party softwares. A closed PC ecosystem. Isn't a PC ecosystem.
in Europe here, I can count the total time when there was no internet when I needed it in under a minute total for the past 5 years. I personally dont care about playing offline. I dont mind being connected to a server all the time, no data caps so it doesnt cost me any extra (and this is not a rare situation here)
I was thinking the same thing, I work in IT and need reliable access. On the last 15 years I have used DSL/cable/fiber from over 5 different providers to my house and cannot think of any time I had an extended downtime.
I'm in Canada
There's no quantum entanglement involved, and there's almost 30million people in Texas.
As long as there is input lag i won't play it. once that's gone then yea i'll sub. also i saw someone say they dont know what the impact on the environment would be compared to consoles but im kind of confused by this. how would streaming platforms be worse for the environment?
Naw I'm good.
Even if I lived in a place where Internet was cheap and reliable (not the USA), there are far too many games that will never end up on this service.
Even if I lived in a place where Internet was cheap and reliable (not the USA), there are far too many games that will never end up on this service.
Well you just answered your own question.
If you don't care about digital ownership then streaming would be a fantastic option. The problem is that for many, including myself, ownership is very important.
The problem with streaming services is that they can be very fluid in regards to content. Netflix is a fantastic example of this as much of their content can and does get removed consistently. Sometimes it comes back and sometimes it is gone for good which means if I actually want unfettered access to ALL my games, streaming can never replace actual ownership.
I'm not against streaming and I might very well subscribe to such a service but it would never entirely supplant my investment in console gaming because I don't want to be beholden to the whims of my streaming provider and discover that one day a certain game I love is no longer available.
If you don't care about digital ownership then streaming would be a fantastic option. The problem is that for many, including myself, ownership is very important.
The problem with streaming services is that they can be very fluid in regards to content. Netflix is a fantastic example of this as much of their content can and does get removed consistently. Sometimes it comes back and sometimes it is gone for good which means if I actually want unfettered access to ALL my games, streaming can never replace actual ownership.
I'm not against streaming and I might very well subscribe to such a service but it would never entirely supplant my investment in console gaming because I don't want to be beholden to the whims of my streaming provider and discover that one day a certain game I love is no longer available.
1 frame at 60fps is 16ms, 33ms at 30fps. The thing is, people throw around ms figures here and complain about latency without trying out the service, and how many here can notice one frame of lag, or two or even three?
For reference, some input latency tests by DF and NX gamer on some popular games:
Doom ~ 80ms
Killzone SF ~ 110ms
Halo 5 ~ 120ms
Forza Horizon 3 ~ 170ms
So when looking at this we can see that Forza Horizon 3 actually has about 5 frames of latency.
Totally unplayable game, right? ;)
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I think there is an untapped market for it.
I don't think it will be replacing the current model but can coexist.
Anything that can expand the market further is a good thing in my opinion.
I don't think it will be replacing the current model but can coexist.
Anything that can expand the market further is a good thing in my opinion.
All of the above except for number 6
Oh no we do know this one and the answer is that there is no amount of code wizardry that makes the amount of electricity consumed through streaming that's gonna be less than a local execution context . Balance out the load all you want even through shared rendering at the very best you'll be consuming just a bit more than local execution but not equal footprint and never is it gonna be less ...
Which is why on the other hand getting Flight Simulator on streaming yeah it does make sense here distributed calculation does a great deal of help to have real good visuals that you wouldn't have at home anyway because of the sheer madness of the rendering distances you have to handle in a flight simulator context . That makes it a game where making stream only is ironically better for the environement but the titles that check that box are few and far between .
Microsoft was actually real clever and real smart in making their next installement of their flight simulator series a streaming based title for all kinds of reasons but the bigger reasons is "Hey you want to fly a plane not just for the sole pleasure of knowing how to fly one of those babies ? How about we finaly do away with blocky gerometry grounds because now thanks to distributed calculation we can delvier you insanely beautifull graphics ?"
That was one way of making people go "Yeah in fact there would be some edge cases where streaming the game from a data center is a desirable thing to happen"
Hell I'm willing to bet that Beyond Good & Evil 2 that insane engine that seamlessly transition from space to surface of a planet , they are building that sucker for either Stadia or X-Cloud or both just so that they can
1 - Let Michel Ancel's crazy gameplay ideas run wild
2 - Just simply wow you with a game that would not run localy regardless of how big you PC gaming rig is .
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You are trading reliability for convenience but take care. It's easy when something has never been a problem to take it for granted and not understand that something is being given up.
My advice as someone who has to support a high-scale service, I wouldn't trust the network for anything, not for privacy, not for reliability, not for performance. If you want to solve any of those problems, you make the thing run locally.
My advice as someone who has to support a high-scale service, I wouldn't trust the network for anything, not for privacy, not for reliability, not for performance. If you want to solve any of those problems, you make the thing run locally.
The majority of players are already paying a subscription fee on top of paying for games. The subs are called Xbox Live Gold and Playstation Plus, which are required to allow a game to go online, required for the biggest games out there.
Also Stadia does not require a subscription if you're fine with 1080p.
I don't think #1 will be possible, barring some major breakthrough in technology. #2 would be very expensive to do.
I think Microsoft has the right idea. Streaming is for supplementary purposes. It can't replicate dedicated hardware on the big screen in your living room or at your desktop, but it can be good to play on the go.
There's no telling what the future holds but I don't see myself going streaming only ever. There are certain classic games that I'd like to play until the day I die that may never be included.
That said the idea of streamed games along side my collection would be great. I pass over a lot of titles that I don't want to spend money on or just don't think I have time for. Being able to have access to a massive streamed library would change how I play games. I would be able to experience so many more titles (and probably complete much less). I can see the average game length being shorter when streaming is the norm. Developers will likely feel less need to bloat games with perceived value content and rather craft an experience that will hook you from the start and never slow down. This will be important in a world where everyone has access to everything and installation times don't exist.
That said the idea of streamed games along side my collection would be great. I pass over a lot of titles that I don't want to spend money on or just don't think I have time for. Being able to have access to a massive streamed library would change how I play games. I would be able to experience so many more titles (and probably complete much less). I can see the average game length being shorter when streaming is the norm. Developers will likely feel less need to bloat games with perceived value content and rather craft an experience that will hook you from the start and never slow down. This will be important in a world where everyone has access to everything and installation times don't exist.
Something about these types of services just makes me feel funny. Like, I'm fine having a digital collection. I download everything to a harddrive. Its mine. Only owning a license to a game in the cloud feels.... funny to me. Like, I sorta got used to that with TV. Maybe I would with games.
But yeah, most of my gaming interests are console exclusives as well. In fact, I can't really think of any non-indie multiplatform title I've cared about in recent times. Like, I'll buy the occasional AC games when they're on sale, but I've never finished one and don't think that's going to change any time soon. So... not in the target market I don't think. If Nintendo or Sony ever move to streaming only, I'll care then.
But yeah, most of my gaming interests are console exclusives as well. In fact, I can't really think of any non-indie multiplatform title I've cared about in recent times. Like, I'll buy the occasional AC games when they're on sale, but I've never finished one and don't think that's going to change any time soon. So... not in the target market I don't think. If Nintendo or Sony ever move to streaming only, I'll care then.
For people who worry about owning the game or mod etc, you guys should check out blade shadow PC.
basically it is a streaming service that give you a full window 10 PC, so you can do a lot more then play game.
but there are also some down side to the service:
1) It is only officially available in some US, UK and EU city (however you can always fake a address which is what I am doing currently)
2) you only get 256GB for now, there is plan for extra storage space but there is not announcement for when or does it cost anything
3) the lag is noticeable but I think it is due to I am accessing the server from Asia and not in US or UK area
4) Blade shadow advertise they will upgrade the hardware when newer, better come out but so far they only upgrade the CPU so there isn't any road map for hardware upgrade
Thing I like about the service:
1) you get a full window 10 and so I can actually do work and other thing on the machine other the gaming
2) there is also a iOS and android app, so if you find good wifi or have unlimited 4G plan you can really game on the go
3) If I want I can get game pass or other service on top of my shadow pc service
basically it is a streaming service that give you a full window 10 PC, so you can do a lot more then play game.
but there are also some down side to the service:
1) It is only officially available in some US, UK and EU city (however you can always fake a address which is what I am doing currently)
2) you only get 256GB for now, there is plan for extra storage space but there is not announcement for when or does it cost anything
3) the lag is noticeable but I think it is due to I am accessing the server from Asia and not in US or UK area
4) Blade shadow advertise they will upgrade the hardware when newer, better come out but so far they only upgrade the CPU so there isn't any road map for hardware upgrade
Thing I like about the service:
1) you get a full window 10 and so I can actually do work and other thing on the machine other the gaming
2) there is also a iOS and android app, so if you find good wifi or have unlimited 4G plan you can really game on the go
3) If I want I can get game pass or other service on top of my shadow pc service
Halo 5 is 65ms and people were complaining about how Halo 5 controlled for years. I'm doubting the Forza number but Killzone sounds about right for how sluggish it's aiming was. If you play shooters seriously you will notice 1 frame of input lag. If you play fighting games at all you will absolutely notice 1 frame of lag, most modern fighting games even add this as a training option for when you're playing online against laggy people.
Not if Elon Musk's satellite Internet takes off. His goal for first gen is 20ms, worldwide connectivity. If this becomes reality then gaming will go full streaming for sure.
I never bought into those services. They don't seem worth it. But then again I'm not a fan of the "always online/multiplayer/GAAS" model either so I'm biased there.
OP do you have anyone else at home using the internet? (latency is affected even on a high bandwidth connection)
Do you leave near a server?
Are you interested in competitive games? Interested in frame rates higher than 60fps? Modding? VR?
When a very popular game launches there is still the possibility of additional interruptions/disconnections from high Stadia/Xcloud server load in addition to whatever connection issues the game's servers will have if it is an online game. Would you mind that?
How about the the loss of quality from compression and the occasional artifacts?
Would you not use any other function of a home console/pc?
If the answer to everything i asked is no (besides the server distance obviously) then i guess streaming is perfect for you.
Do you leave near a server?
Are you interested in competitive games? Interested in frame rates higher than 60fps? Modding? VR?
When a very popular game launches there is still the possibility of additional interruptions/disconnections from high Stadia/Xcloud server load in addition to whatever connection issues the game's servers will have if it is an online game. Would you mind that?
How about the the loss of quality from compression and the occasional artifacts?
Would you not use any other function of a home console/pc?
If the answer to everything i asked is no (besides the server distance obviously) then i guess streaming is perfect for you.
As Phil Spencer said when speaking to Jeff on the Giantbomb E3 discussion a few days ago - playing on a physical console connected to your TV is always going to be the best way to play. Their approach is to give folks choice, rather than replace.
Honestly that's the only way I see streaming being successful - there's always going to be folks which want to play locally for the best experience even against a fairly best case scenario streaming experience. If you're not one of those then stream away!
Honestly that's the only way I see streaming being successful - there's always going to be folks which want to play locally for the best experience even against a fairly best case scenario streaming experience. If you're not one of those then stream away!
