if professionals can use email, document sharing, video conference etc., why do we still waste our time with in-person meetings?

greepoman · Mar 11, 2019

Small thread backfire? I think OP must be in a situation that lends itself to telecommunication. I've been on some of those where what was a meeting could've been handled remotely. But for large projects that require a lot of cooperation there's just no substitute.

Also a big part of why I travel for meetings is the "meeting after the meeting". Usually a subset of people sometime after the meeting that talk the politics of the situation (i.e. you have a big customer you need to cater to) and stuff you probably don't want there to be a digital record of.

sHitman · Mar 11, 2019

It would be beneficial to everyone involved if the requirements are met. Like with every face-two-face meeting, preparation is key to success, so it is with video conferences. Say if everyone involved has access to the same pool of information and the conference had high standards - no lag, audio issues, whatsoever, things can be achieved more efficiently and less costly. Also there would be no whitewashing and lying would be more difficult, since all information would be available to access for all participants at all time. And people would not get caught up in artificial things like smell, lighting and everything else that can influence your perception.

It's just old behavior with the possibility of manipulation.

TarpitCarnivore · Mar 11, 2019

riverfr0zen said:
Very true, and you could say the investments made into having an in-person meeting make it all the more critical there. However, having the skills to keeping meeting structure and maintaining order is often forgotten when things are online, and since the in-person indicators aren't there, things can break down more easily is, I think, the point I was trying to make.

That's why remote first companies can be so taxing when hiring because they put so much into finding people who can communicate & work independently of in person meetings

riverfr0zen · Mar 11, 2019

TarpitCarnivore said:
That's why remote first companies can be so taxing when hiring because they put so much into finding people who can communicate & work independently of in person meetings

Yeah, it's a real "thing" (having the fluency in doing that) which I think many tend to brush off at their peril when first exploring remote working setups.

EDIT: That being said, it is a thing that can be learned by a team if everyone is willing to have some patience and make constructive efforts. I've seen teams evolve this way for the better.

greepoman said:
Also a big part of why I travel for meetings is the "meeting after the meeting". Usually a subset of people sometime after the meeting that talk the politics of the situation (i.e. you have a big customer you need to cater to) and stuff you probably don't want there to be a digital record of.

Thank you for providing the *official* description of "getting drunk at the bar" ;)

TarpitCarnivore · Mar 11, 2019

riverfr0zen said:
Yeah, it's a real "thing" (having the fluency in doing that) which I think many tend to brush off at their peril when first exploring remote working setups.

I wish non-remote companies put training into running effective meetings because I've had way too many bad ones to write them all off. When I lead them I will cut people off if they're getting way too tangental from the original topic at hand.

ArtVandelay · Mar 11, 2019

Why leave the house at all?

RPTGB · Mar 11, 2019

"Old people thing"...it's a sad state of affairs when communicating face to face, in person, is considered old fashioned rather than a perfectly natural way of doing things.

OrangeNova · Mar 11, 2019

I don't totally disagree with OP. I think a face to face meeting should be replaced with an email when it's only one person speaking about something that doesn't affect the entire group of the meeting. But a meeting where everyone has something to contribute is a lot harder to replace.

Hollywood Duo · Mar 11, 2019

Face to face communication is important. The problem is there are too many pointless meetings.

sHitman · Mar 11, 2019

RPTGB said:
"Old people thing"...it's a sad state of affairs when communicating face to face, in person, is considered old fashioned rather than a perfectly natural way of doing things.

Throw your mobile and pc away and write letters instead?

It is an "old" thing and other forms are way more beneficial. Decisions don't depend on personal relations but information and good judgement, not (possibly) behind shut doors. Were not talking about family meetings, so why not keep it professional. Your eye catches far less and your ears are vulnerable to lies. Give me a face and all information I need to validate. It's an augmented form of face to face communication, without the need of physical presence.

RoninChaos · Mar 11, 2019

HammerOfThor said:
Because of this.

In person will always trump digital. That being said, my current client refuses to communicate over email and it's annoying because so many little things don't need a 1 hour meeting 5 times a day. There's a line that needs to be balanced.

That's where I'm at. I prefer email for the small stuff and meetings via phone or in person for big stuff.

The bigger issue and the reason why people even feel this way is because a lot of people just want to have pointless meetings which waste everyone's time. If we had less meetings to go over shit that could be done via email then I don't think most people would be frustrated by this. Imagine having a client or coworker who wants to have a meeting every time there's a question and wouldn't use things like email to ask those simple questions. You'd spend more time getting on calls with them rather than actually doing your job.

riverfr0zen · Mar 11, 2019

Hollywood Duo said:
Face to face communication is important. The problem is there are too many pointless meetings.

That's actually a really great way to sum up the issue. "Face to face" is effective from a quality perspective, but people seem to think that those good results can be reproduced for maximum advantage by increasing the quantity of "face to face". It's one of those kinds of deals, where you just can't make it better by having "more".

(Obviously I'm speaking from a work-meeting perspective, not personal relationships).

TarpitCarnivore · Mar 11, 2019

I also think telecommunication has highlighted just how bad some people are at communication. When you take people whom are already bad, and put them behind a video call or phone call it only gets amplified at how bad they are.

steejee · Mar 11, 2019

They're more effective due to non-verbal cues and not being able to ignore what's going on for long stretches. Not necessarily important for all meetings (eg anything with a main presenter or stuff like an AGILE Daily Standup don't need that level of awareness), but for working meetings or discussion type stuff it's important.

That being said my ideal work from home vs work at office ratio would probably be 3 days at home/2 days in office as a standard but allowing for up to 4 in office if you need to meet with people a lot for a project.

fanboi · Mar 11, 2019

Because this

TarpitCarnivore · Mar 11, 2019

fanboi said:
Because this

This is irritating, because as some of us pointed out a lot of these same issues exist in face to face meetings just manifested in different ways.

fanboi · Mar 11, 2019

TarpitCarnivore said:
This is irritating, because as some of us pointed out a lot of these same issues exist in face to face meetings just manifested in different ways.

Yes some but not nearly as prominent and people have a sense of accountability when face to face.

H.Protagonist · Mar 11, 2019

Face to face is way better in my experience. People either zone out, don't read, or don't process/retain online stuff half as well as a face to face conversation. Every time I see one of those flashy ads showing 'modern' business life via Skype or whatever with bright eyed, well dressed people using animated presentations, interactive boards, all laughing and interacting seamlessly through computer screens, I can't help but roll my eyes. Online has been great for a lot of things, and it is amazing, but the reality is things just get lost in communication, people don't fully engage when it comes to screens, and technology isn't consistent enough to replicate face to face (Is everyone on the call? Hello? Hello? Can everyone hear me? Can someone message Bob? Hello? Is there a lag? Hello...).

SABO. · Mar 11, 2019

happy to discuss WIP over the phone but any major project or pitch has to be face to face.

Need to be able to read the room and push it in the right direction

riverfr0zen · Mar 11, 2019

I think one more aspect to consider is that some people's jobs, "the work", are meetings, basically. But for many (most?) others "the work" is something else, and meetings are just for communication around the work.

regenhuber · Mar 11, 2019

RustyNails said:
Have you been in skype meetings? people zone out after a few minutes and dont pay attention until they hear their name.

I'm in a Skype meeting while writing this LOL

Deleted member 12790 · Mar 11, 2019

You vastly overestimate the skills of "professionals" let me tell you what

"Send me the STL file, I need to see the render."

*gets an email that is a forward of a text message of someone taking a photograph of the computer monitor*

TarpitCarnivore · Mar 11, 2019

H.Protagonist said:
Face to face is way better in my experience. People either zone out, don't read, or don't process/retain online stuff half as well as a face to face conversation. Every time I see one of those flashy ads showing 'modern' business life via Skype or whatever with bright eyed, well dressed people using animated presentations, interactive boards, all laughing and interacting seamlessly through computer screens, I can't help but roll my eyes. Online has been great for a lot of things, and it is amazing, but the reality is things just get lost in communication, people don't fully engage when it comes to screens, and technology isn't consistent enough to replicate face to face (Is everyone on the call? Hello? Hello? Can everyone hear me? Can someone message Bob? Hello? Is there a lag? Hello...).

I lost count of the number of meetings I'd be in where people were zoned out and staring into their computers. Engineers would be trying to cram in work while sitting in meetings and not paying attention at all. I was close to instituting a 'no phone or laptop' policy during my meetings.

riverfr0zen · Mar 11, 2019

regenhuber said:
I'm in a Skype meeting while writing this LOL

The thrills! I mean, in a way, we are all in an online meeting right now to discuss the merits of different types of meetings.

raygcon · Mar 11, 2019

Depends on the type of work. For example, if you are software dev, then there is no point travelling to office unless you need human interaction ( like me , i can't work from home all the time ). But if you are manager or need to enguage with people, another team, verbal meeting is still useful, when you can engage their response/feeling about things, rather than through text or even voice/video.

bangai-o · Mar 11, 2019

The thing is, I put professional in the title because I expected professionals to know how to write in a clear and concise manner, provide the links and documents that need to be read, and reply thereafter.

regenhuber · Mar 11, 2019

riverfr0zen said:
The thrills! I mean, in a way, we are all in an online meeting right now to discuss the merits of different types of meetings.

At my workplace, we probably do 9 out of 10 meetings via Skype bc our sites are located in different cities.
But most of the important shit gets worked out during the actual meetings we have face 2 face. We try to do them like 2-3 times per year.

IDK why but seeing a person's face is super important.
Imagine how few bans and disputes we would have on ERA if we only talked in person.

greepoman · Mar 11, 2019

riverfr0zen said:
Thank you for providing the *official* description of "getting drunk at the bar" ;)

The after meeting meeting can also be an intoxicated round of golf. It takes many forms. That's where you learn the real stuff and stuff essential to move up the ladder in many fields.

Window · Mar 11, 2019

bangai-o said:
The thing is, I put professional in the title because I expected professionals to know how to write in a clear and concise manner, provide the links and documents that need to be read, and reply thereafter.

It really does depend on the company culture and systems/equipment they provide to their staff. I think some legitimate counterpoints have been raised here but most are easily surmountable, it's just a matter of culture/practice/habit. I think the hardest conversations to have over the phone are actually not meetings, which typically have a set agenda and flow to them but the one to one conversations you have with your colleagues when you run into a question/problem and need to bounce ideas.

H.Protagonist · Mar 11, 2019

TarpitCarnivore said:
I lost count of the number of meetings I'd be in where people were zoned out and staring into their computers. Engineers would be trying to cram in work while sitting in meetings and not paying attention at all. I was close to instituting a 'no phone or laptop' policy during my meetings.

Better than Bob in a Skype meeting with porn on in another window? :D

Skade · Mar 11, 2019

There's the issue of confidential things you may not want to be possibly recorded but mostly, it's just more efficient(for the meeting itself) to be done in person. No connection issues, you can see the people you are talking to, it's easier to show them something during the conversation, you can see if the attendees actually listens, etc etc.

Conf calls are good but being in a team where we have to use Skype every day because we are not all in the same countries, i can tell you that we would be much more efficient if we where all in the same place to have our meetings.

Basically, humans are better at talking in person because that's how we evolved. Plain and simple.

Shadybiz · Mar 11, 2019

RustyNails said:
Have you been in skype meetings? people zone out after a few minutes and dont pay attention until they hear their name.

YEP!! Can't tell you how many times I've been on a teleconference, and someone has said "Oh sorry what was that? I was multitasking." Translation: "I was watching cat videos instead of focusing on the meeting."

captive · Mar 11, 2019

ive worked with people that literally believe you cannot collaborate unless your are face to face.

it really sucks when you've been remote full time for over 4 years like i have. There are plenty of collaboration tools now, Slack, teams, fuze, just to name a few, VS Code has Live Share you can literally code pair with multiple people at once directly from your IDE.

APOEERA · Mar 11, 2019

Working in IT, you would be surprised at how little non-tech people understand online productivity tools or even downright refuse to use them. I will have people tell me "I don't understand the computer" even though over 50% of their work involves it.

So when the problem could have been solved with them, it is instead a meeting face to face.

Some of it could be the culture, some of it could be training, and some of it is the workplace.

PeskyToaster · Mar 11, 2019

because face to face works a lot better at rapidly discussing more complex ideas. If something is being presented then remote works but if you actually have to work something out together. I feel you need the continuous, real-time back-and-forth.

neon_dream · Mar 11, 2019

RestEerie said:
why do we still need writers when AI can write an article for us?

Why do we need women when we can have VR waifus?

Yeah, anyway, in-person communication builds better relationships and better relationships are more effective.

nampad · Mar 11, 2019

At least some face to face meetings are necessary in my opinion to get to know each other. And all the non verbal communication cues work better face to face.

I'll agree though that if you have some good work relationship, you can use the tools effectively.

bangai-o said:
The thing is, I put professional in the title because I expected professionals to know how to write in a clear and concise manner, provide the links and documents that need to be read, and reply thereafter.

Most of my clients are banks, an industry considered one of the most professional.

I lost my respect of people after some weeks of work and I know literally everyone fucks up ;)
You can't imagine some of the replies I am getting in mails etc.

Pbae · Mar 11, 2019

As a boss, it's far easier to smell the bullshit from some workers. It also helps to convey appreciation to a higher degree with my employees when done personally.

Alwayscrazybacon · Mar 11, 2019

TarpitCarnivore said:
This isn't exclusive to online meetings though. This is a problem with ALL meetings

The worst thing is the backend. Not taking minutes, not making action points and not assigning a person to be responsible for the action points. Otherwise it's a case of "That's a good idea" and a week later "Why did nothing happen?".

sabertoothzombie · Mar 11, 2019

If it's with a meeting with the design team, then in person meetings are best I find, though now that my UX designer is on the East Coast, we have no trouble "whiteboarding" via online meeting thanks to tools for it.

Beyond that, I prefer remote meetings. I'd say 99% of the meetings I have or have had in person were too long, and had the same problems, because the entire team couldn't be in the office. This is especially a problem when you work with a global team. Being able to leave a meeting if it really doesn't concern you, monitoring over a breakout meeting with teams in separate "rooms", and just not being held to staying and waiting on someone physically is nice. The biggest problem is people don't understand when there should or should not be a meeting. Sometimes, email is better, especially if you want a record of what someone said, or a quick ping on your chat client

Alwayscrazybacon · Mar 11, 2019

greepoman said:
Small thread backfire? I think OP must be in a situation that lends itself to telecommunication.

Dare I say it and mention that generation that's grown up communicating safely behind a screen and the benefit of not having to answer on the spot?

Skade · Mar 11, 2019

I would also add that it's MUCH easier to discard responsabilities while remote. Wether it's by email, Jira, Slack or a conf-call.

There's an issue we have with a contractor company who are responsible of delivering the designs we need to integrate for the client website. During our regular remote conversations they ALWAYS find a way to delay, fail to respond or comprehend what we ask of them. They even are usually quite cold and harsh in their responses.

But, magically, when we are talking face to face, then they are suddenly all nice and smiles, finally understand what we want and gives us what we ask in a matter of hours instead of days/weeks as usual.

Remote adds some kind of disconnect that tend to transform people to something worse (or in person transform people to nicer version of themselves, dunno). It's like people being dicks on the internet while acting nice in real life. Same thing.

Hollywood Duo · Mar 11, 2019

bangai-o said:
The thing is, I put professional in the title because I expected professionals to know how to write in a clear and concise manner, provide the links and documents that need to be read, and reply thereafter.

Lol you are trolling

'3y Kingdom · Mar 11, 2019

Many people. if not most, prefer and benefit more from face-to-face conversations. Anything else introduces some degree of distraction and alienation.

Inki · Mar 11, 2019

Another thing your showing is effort. When it comes to clients, you spending the money and time gives them the warm and fuzzy's. Your willing to go out of your way for them. Other than that I agree with you 100%. Lets do this the modern way. But there is something to say about the old school way of a face to face meeting in regards to respect and effort when it's not needed.

The Albatross · Mar 11, 2019

In person meetings can be far, far more efficient and they can achieve different goals. One might not necessarily be better than the other, they can each have pros and cons, but there's a place for in person meetings in the business world. I don't think it has anything to do with age, I work with at least two young people who are very effective in in-person meetings, and become useless in remote meetings.

Also, a lot of meetings are informal. Anybody whose done remote work with a team that is local to each other knows the experience of consensus being reached informally on something, and that not being documented or captured for the remote employees... and so there's a disconnect.

Beyond that, it's difficult to up-end how human beings have been communicating for 10,000 years, in just 10 years of internet progress.

Window · Mar 11, 2019

Alwayscrazybacon said:
Dare I say it and mention that generation that's grown up communicating safely behind a screen and the benefit of not having to answer on the spot?

No, the younger generation opts to use Slack, email, messaging than voice calls or meetings - and that's actually a good thing. Things get done much faster when the entire team is in constant asynchronous communication like that for little things and then switch over to voice calls/meetings for big important discussions. If you're working in a large company it's completely unfeasible to get everyone in the same room whenever you want to discuss something, not to mention you're often working with a wide variety of people and again it becomes almost impossible to move from meeting to meeting (which have totally different attendents) in person for everyone. Messaging and voice calls are the best options imo - too many people choose to ignore their emails. However for smaller teams and work places, I think face to face interaction is definitely the preferred option at most times.

TheIdiot · Mar 11, 2019

I'm assuming OP is a developer or in support or something, and he dreads when managers call meetings.

Because for managers, sales, projects, HR, etc. etc. etc. face-to-face is crucial.

Alwayscrazybacon · Mar 11, 2019

Window said:
No, the younger generation opts to use Slack, email, messaging than voice calls or meetings - and that's actually a good thing. Things get done much faster when the entire team is in constant asynchronous communication like that for little things and then switch over to voice calls/meetings for big important discussions. If you're working in a large company it's completely unfeasible to get everyone in the same room whenever you want to discuss something, not to mention you're often working with a wide variety of people and again it becomes almost impossible to move from meeting to meeting (which have totally different attendents) in person for everyone. Messaging and voice calls are the best options imo - too many people choose to ignore their emails. However for smaller teams and work places, I think face to face interaction is definitely the preferred option at most times.

Well I guess you've been working with different people that me. Nobody has ever suggested using Slack for example.

Window · Mar 11, 2019

TheIdiot said:
I'm assuming OP is a developer or in support or something, and he dreads when managers call meetings.

Because for managers, sales, projects, HR, etc. etc. etc. face-to-face is crucial.

I thought most devs go through some sort of daily stand up meetings these days.

if professionals can use email, document sharing, video conference etc., why do we still waste our time with in-person meetings?

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