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Do you agree?

  • Yes. Captain obvious.

  • No. What are you talking about.


Results are only viewable after voting.

MiDoZ

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
830
I remember some games tried it last gen. With regulating it. Not the same I know, still it was better than nothing. But I feel with the industry moving more to the micro transactions side of things (guess games cost a shit ton of money...) nobody is even trying.
Hopefully it becomes the next big thing for console gaming after cross play. It kind makes sens to me that Microsoft can push for it. Although they need full support and partnership from the third party on this one. Maybe they can start with their 1st party?

First thread since I have been lurking for more the 10 years :D
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,406
Mods as in peripherals? They aren't as much of a thing, but still exist for specific games.

With the right game, I could see a company going for both. Like a new Amiibo or Skylanders thing that hooks into some gacha cross-platform (console/mobile)

Microtransactions will probably endure because unlike peripherals, there is no risk of excess stock from a failed run.


If you mean mods as in console-add ons, they are alive and well. That's just PSVR and Labo and things like that. (Cardboard is hardware!) They're uncommon, but still out there.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,087
There are games that have mods (some paradox games have them in xbox), but the main problem is not mtx, but rather making sure that they are safe for people to use and will not damage (or worse for the console provider, be used to run code that allows piracy) the console. So they need to verify the files of each mod which ends up being a huge undertaking.

Mods as in peripherals? They aren't as much of a thing, but still exist for specific games.

With the right game, I could see a company going for both. Like a new Amiibo or Skylanders thing that hooks into some gacha cross-platform (console/mobile)

Microtransactions will probably endure because unlike peripherals, there is no risk of excess stock from a failed run.


If you mean mods as in console-add ons, they are alive and well. That's just PSVR and Labo and things like that. (Cardboard is hardware!) They're uncommon, but still out there.
Pretty sure he means mods as in game mods, such as in PC.
 

Chille

Member
Jan 7, 2018
2,000
Without Microtranscations then we would of also had increased costs of the base game or some other model to help with cost of game development.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
I'm not sure I see the connection at all...Microtransactions were basically taking the normal pay for what you want DLC model, and applying gacha/TCG type randomization because they found people spent more money that way. Mods aren't allowed on consoles because they're much more closed systems than PCs
 

gabegabe

Member
Jul 5, 2018
2,753
Brazil
Oh yes, true, without microtransactions in games we would traveling through space. DAMN YOU, EA!

It's a joke.
 

Yogi

Banned
Nov 10, 2019
1,806
Probably.

UE3 Unreal Tournament 3 had mods on PS3, it was crazy.

Without Microtranscations then we would of also had increased costs of the base game or some other model to help with cost of game development.

The mods might have led to more game sales.
 
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MiDoZ

MiDoZ

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
830
There are games that have mods (some paradox games have them in xbox), but the main problem is not mtx, but rather making sure that they are safe for people to use and will not damage (or worse for the console provider, be used to run code that allows piracy) the console. So they need to verify the files of each mod which ends up being a huge undertaking.


Pretty sure he means mods as in game mods, such as in PC.
Yeah I thought about that too. Do you think they can use the community as "supply" to take on this? Idk something like Xbox preview but obviously more involved from the user end. Far fetched I know but there could be a way.

I'm not sure I see the connection at all...Microtransactions were basically taking the normal pay for what you want DLC model, and applying gacha/TCG type randomization because they found people spent more money that way. Mods aren't allowed on consoles because they're much more closed systems than PCs
I guess I didn't actually explain my point lol.
Basically let's take a game like MGS: Phantom Pain. Where there are timers that lead to resources where you can use them to get new items in the game. And these timers can be upgraded with mtx I believe. Having mods can render the mtx absolute. And fighting games where cosmetics involve mtx. Racing games...etc
 

dabri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,728
Mods are a security risk to walled garden eco systems.
Also tremendously difficult to ensure stability and protect console os/client files with mods.
You would have to heavily restrict what could be allowed.
 

OmegaDL50

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,690
Philadelphia, PA
A game having microtransactions isn't mutually exclusive from mods also existing, Case in point look at both Skyrim and Fallout 4 on both console and PC.

Bethesda has its own exclusive mods that can be purchased from the Bethesda Store, which doesn't exclude user made mods being able to be downloaded as well.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
I guess I didn't actually explain my point lol.
Basically let's take a game like MGS: Phantom Pain. Where there are timers that lead to resources where you can use them to get new items in the game. And these timers can be upgraded with mtx I believe. Having mods can render the mtx absolute. And fighting games where cosmetics involve mtx. Racing games...etc
So your argument is with mods, users could create the content they're being made to pay for instead? But there are PC games with both mod support and mtx. People will pay for official content regardless, if only for the perceived superior quality
 

DJ_Lae

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,870
Edmonton
It's more keeping the mods from screwing up anything on consoles, as you either leave it wide open (which no platform manufacturer would be okay with) or have someone carefully curate mods. The latter is too expensive and bothersome for the game publisher.
 

MykhellMikado

Alt account
Banned
Jan 13, 2020
823
Mods in closed systems are always going to be regulated and have to be by nature. Mods on PC exist only because it's an open system not because developers are expressly supporting it.
 
OP
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MiDoZ

MiDoZ

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
830
So your argument is with mods, users could create the content they're being made to pay for instead? But there are PC games with both mod support and mtx. People will pay for official content regardless, if only for the perceived superior quality
More than that actually. Can't they just unlock the content without paying?
Sorry not a PC gamer as you can see :P
 

OmegaDL50

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,690
Philadelphia, PA
More than that actually. Can't they just unlock the content without paying?
Sorry not PC gamer as you can see :P

This would imply said content was already available in the game data and not a seperate download.

It's misinformed to associate mods with hacks or circumvention / piracy of paid content. User created content (i.e mods) is a separate thing entirely.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
I remember some games tried it last gen. With regulating it. Not the same I know, still it was better than nothing. But I feel with the industry moving more to the micro transactions side of things (guess games cost a shit ton of money...) nobody is even trying.
Hopefully it becomes the next big thing for console gaming after cross play. It kind makes sens to me that Microsoft can push for it. Although they need full support and partnership from the third party on this one. Maybe they can start with their 1st party?

First thread since I have been lurking for more the 10 years :D
The main reason why we don't have wide spread mod support on consoles is because it's a security liability, and the few games that do have mod support have to have each mod go through fairly rigorous checking before they're publicly released so they offer back door access to the root processes.

The walled garden model that consoles adhere to is why there aren't a lot of mods. Plenty of games on PC have both mods and micro-transactions.


More than that actually. Can't they just unlock the content without paying?
Sorry not a PC gamer as you can see :P
Mods and cracks are two different things.

For example, the mod support for SF5 is out there and pretty varied, but those modders aren't doing the same thing that capcom is doing officially, so there's no overlap (though you can make the argument that the modders are doing a more quality job and are doing more interesting things that capcom is doing officially).
 
OP
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MiDoZ

MiDoZ

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
830
This would imply said content was already available in the game data and not a seperate download.

It's misinformed to associate mods with hacks or circumvention / piracy of paid content. User created content (i.e mods) is a separate thing entirely.
Was not in my intention to associate modding with piracy. I understand how modding is important and a key part in pc gaming. That's why I want it on console. But my argument is having an open platform for modding to be possible can put mtx on risk.

now with everyone explaining how it can lead to hacking and piracy I lost hope :[
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,406
Ok, *ahem* let me try this again.

The whole reason the industry tried to push mods on console was to monetise them like microtransactions. Even if mods took off, it would only supplement official DLC/microtransactions. I don't foresee any future where mods ever eclipsed microtransactions, no matter how much they tried to monetise them.

Aside from the whole ethical angle of exploiting modders for profit, I don't think anyone in the gaming industry actually wants to moderate and regulate their own communities, which is what monetising mods requires. It's a pandora's box of responsibility that no license-holder wants to deal with.
Pretty sure he means mods as in game mods, such as in PC.
...Oh. Whoops.

Sometimes I have a real talent for missing the point.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,472
Without Microtranscations then we would of also had increased costs of the base game or some other model to help with cost of game development.
People say this but there's no evidence to suggest it's actually true. Hell, for one thing there are a number of big games with little to no microtransactions being sold at full price while games with much smaller scopes and similar audience sizes are packed to the brim with them
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
Mods that completely change a game's behavior or create new worlds are impossible at the moment because consoles are closed platforms. You can't download a script extender, textures that make the game require more RAM than available, etc. That's not for monetization, but how the concept of consoles work. You can't upgrade the CPU or GPU separately, and not to mention that allowing script modifications could create security risks way beyond piracy.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,378
I guess I didn't actually explain my point lol.
Basically let's take a game like MGS: Phantom Pain. Where there are timers that lead to resources where you can use them to get new items in the game. And these timers can be upgraded with mtx I believe. Having mods can render the mtx absolute. And fighting games where cosmetics involve mtx. Racing games...etc
Dj3owxeVAAEeXZA.jpg


03_urienman06.jpg


These costumes are mods.
 

karim

Member
Oct 27, 2017
124
wow you just made me remember mods on unreal tournament 3 for ps3. and now I remember otherOS. and now I am sad.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
I definitely think it'd be a priority for more companies than just Bethesda.

Mods have shown to extend the sales of a game and create a passionate community. I doubt Skyrim would've sold as many copies if not for mods, and I'm sure Fallout 4's console version got a lot of use.
 

Chille

Member
Jan 7, 2018
2,000
I don't think its fair to say exactly what the casual player would do If they never have access to it in the first place.
You telling me someone willing to look into .txt files then Google for the mods then search through file explorer if they are casual? I've got back to PC recently after years and I will never mod games really too much hassle.
 

packy17

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,901
Eh.... uh... that's a weird conclusion to draw.

The most popular mods on PC usually require file system access in some way. Some require executables/separate installations. Stuff like that would never (and will never) happen on consoles.
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,416
You telling me someone willing to look into .txt files then Google for the mods then search through file explorer if they are casual? I've got back to PC recently after years and I will never mod games really too much hassle.

Most of the time all you need to do is hit subscribe on the steam workshop.

Nexus mod has its userfriendly installer too.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,643
Of course, especially for simpler mods like costumes and color pallet swaps for costumes. If Capcom let you add user created costumes to RE3 remake, do you think Jill's tube top would be locked behind pre-order? Imagine if Bungie let you use user mods for the skins for weapons and armor with robust creation tools, their entire fucking ecosystem would collapse.
 
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Ales34

Member
Apr 15, 2018
6,455
Bethesda's games on Xbox and PS4 have free mods by the community and paid curated mods, so it's not like they're mutually exclusive. I wish other developers followed Bethesda's example and allowed modding on consoles.
 

Echo

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,482
Mt. Whatever
I guess I didn't actually explain my point lol.
Basically let's take a game like MGS: Phantom Pain. Where there are timers that lead to resources where you can use them to get new items in the game. And these timers can be upgraded with mtx I believe. Having mods can render the mtx absolute. And fighting games where cosmetics involve mtx. Racing games...etc

Oh, in MGSV case I didn't even need mods. Cheat engine can make all the timers 0.

I played the game offline though. If you don't agree to Konami ToS, they don't let you connect. So I never did.
 

Nitpicker_Red

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,282
Mods as in peripherals? They aren't as much of a thing, but still exist for specific games.
Mods are modifications of the game.
Resource Modifications (frequent), Code Modifications (harder), Memory Modifications (maybe not considered "modding" but "cheating").

I don't see the correlation to be honest.
(Not focused on you)
Easy mods like extra costumes, extra hats, go in direct competition with in-game selling of extra costumes, extra hats.

Yes, single-player games usually don't make you pay for those small visual extras (unless it's in the form of bonuses for a bigger DLC). So they should become moddable without problem. [against OP's argument in case where there are no games selling hats for singleplayer content]

It's mostly a thing for multiplayer games where there are social strings attached to your appearance, that paid microtransaction exist for things that are easily added as a mod. But it's not at the same time since modding your game's visuals in multiplayer doesn't always affect the other games (you cannot show people an item that doesn't exist in the game). [against OP's argument in case where visual mods don't have an impact in multiplayer]
Devs could be more worried about cheat mods in a multiplayer environment, depending on how the game was coded, and if there is a progression system attached to the online. [neutral to OP's argument, bringing an alternative reason why mods are seen badly by plaform holder]

----
Mods are not limited to visual mods. On mobile, you pay for microtransactions in single-player games (with "multiplayer" leaderboards tacked on) that are not only cosmetic, but also make the game easier/unlock functionalities. (Usually prey on less knowledgeable players.) Those levers could easily be Switched by mods. So there's another incompatibility for games that are both on mobile and consoles. [for OP's argument in games that have mobile-like microtransactions on singleplayer console games]
----

So your argument is with mods, users could create the content they're being made to pay for instead? But there are PC games with both mod support and mtx. People will pay for official content regardless, if only for the perceived superior quality
This is true for new zones etc. which [1] require a lot of work to get polished [2] are unique creations: two different stories are not a replacement of eachother.
This is not true for costumes/items. For example, two costumes on the same concept or that make the same reference are a replacement of eachother.

This is true for content that requires server-side authentication to use (you download the new campaign, you unlock an item in an online mode).
This is not true for content that is locked in the game data where a switch could be flipped by a mod to access the exact same content/feature. Or for things that take so little modifications to the base code that a mod could replicate it exactly.

[for OP's argument since there are content where mods are a good replacement for something the devs would like to sell you trough microtransactions]
----

The user has a lot of control over the system when they play on PC. Mods are easily available so devs/pubs have to live with them... unless they do something to protect the game's code, like, code anti-tamper, and DRM. Which is not rare.

The prevalence of anti-tamper like Denuvo that hampers code modding could be an indication that if they could, a lot of big-time developers/publishers would also like to limit the possibility of modding on the PC.
[neutral to OP's argument, show that the "on consoles" part of the argument is separate from the "micro-transactions" part]
---

Why else would mods be reviled by platform holders? It's not like artistic integrity is that high in their priority list. [discrediting counter-argument of artistic integrity]
  • It must be a monetary reason, and the only thing mods could be a replacement of are not-server-checked small visual content often sold in microtransactions, or not-server-checked small gameplay improvements that either reduce playtime or opportunity for the player to pay more. [highlighting OP's point]
  • It must be a branding reason, as modified copies of the game could give the wrong impression of the game (in term of nudity, violence, content). [alternative to OP's point] This goes beyond artistic integrity, it's marketing, sales potential.
  • It must be a technical reason. Not that they are making modding on consoles hard, but that it takes work to make it easy, to give the tools to access the files. Money not spent on making more money. [alternative to OP's point]
  • It must be for non-reasonned cultural reasons. That they are not thinking of mods as a good thing for games, and haven't questionned the habit of locking down their consoles. [alternative to OP's point]
  • It must be a side effect of their security measures for games. After all, if an user can modify freely a game, wouldn't they just be able to just insert pirated code? [alternative to OP's point]
 
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Oct 25, 2017
4,841
As many have already posted, microtransactions aren't the cause. It's console security so that the consoles will stay closed and that there won't be an exploit that would open up the consoles to run any application. They want to prevent a situation like when a modified Cubic Ninja custom level was used to hack the Nintendo 3DS, or when a modified Splinter Cell save file was used to hack the original Xbox.