If Dragon Quest can't exist without supporting Sugiyama, does it deserve to exist at all?

[P-Tux7]

Inspired by this great line:

If Blizzard is not what it is without crunch, then Blizzard should not exist.

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This topic was inspired by Hero in Smash, and also the news of the Dragon Quest 12 starting production.

Every time I bring up the problematicness of every new Dragon Quest game (TLDR: the main theme is owned by a shitlord who's racist, homophobic, a war-crime denier and they pay him fat lumps every time they make a new DQ game) people always excuse it. "Japanese players wouldn't want it without Sugiyama's music, so what is even the point of doing it without him. Square Enix would never drop him".

Well, you know what? I'd like to posit that if this series cannot exist or be popular without its popularity directly supporting a KNOWN trashbag who wants people like me to BE FUCKING DEAD, then it shouldn't exist. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

Spoiler: By the way...

Some would say every game has a person like this in its production, but you know what? This guy is active in politics. A lot of people know his name. And the way I look at it? I know he's a bad guy, so even if all the other games secretly have bad guys in their production, I still KNOW about this guy and shouldn't support him.

 

[Deleted member 15428]

Letting younger people take your place is a normal fact of life. Of course Dragon Quest can exist without the founding trio and it should.

 

[Weiss]

Would anyone mind filling me on this guy? I know he's supposed to be a giant shitheel but I'd like to tell if he's just an old asshole or a straight up total bastard.

 

[P-Tux7]

Would anyone mind filling me on this guy? I know he's supposed to be a giant shitheel but I'd like to tell if he's just an old asshole or a straight up total bastard.

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Dragon Quest composer Koichi Sugiyama isn't happy just being a war crime denier, is anti-LGBT too!

So you might have seen this thread on Off Topic: https://www.resetera.com/threads/japanese-politician-says-using-tax-on-lgbt-citizens-is-unproductive-because-they-dont-have-children.57209/ So this Japanese politician is being an asshate on a conservative propaganda talk that's making waves now...

www.resetera.com

 

[Mifec]

Would anyone mind filling me on this guy? I know he's supposed to be a giant shitheel but I'd like to tell if he's just an old asshole or a straight up total bastard.

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Uses his money to fund war crime denial, goes on live TV to laugh at LGBTQ+ suicides.

 

[Kamion]

Square-Enix won't drop him right now because 1) it's complicated 2) they just don't care enough tbh (which is horrible).
At this point, they're waiting until he dies and his assistant (who's not a racist pos) takes over.

Of course Dragon Quest would work if they changed the main theme, I can understand that they don't want to though, it's pretty iconic.

Edit: To emphasize: I do not agree with this approach. I can somewhat understand it from a business standpoint that's all. Morally... yeah they should have kicked him ages ago.

 

[IvanTheTerrible]

Man can create art however he wants.
People can choose what they want.
As a man born under communist totalitarian regime I don't support any form of People Dictatorship.

 

[Gold Arsene]

He's like nearly fucking 90 isn't he?

Not to be morbid but give it a few years this won't be an issue.

It's not like it's affecting the games themselves either since XI has a gay character and will let you more or less end up with a male character in the definitive edition.

 

[1upsuper]

Letting younger people take your place is a normal fact of life. Of course Dragon Quest can exist without the founding trio and it should.

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Yup. I think DQ can and will survive.

 

[kadotsu]

You can make that choice but the problem is that you don't change shit about the structure. Also if you want to be thorough you need to stop buying Zenimax games because a Trump is on the board, Activision because they do propaganda for the US military industrial complex, Microsoft because they work with ICE ... the list goes on. Consumer activism isn't very potent long term. You need to attack the political structure in an organized manner.

 

[P-Tux7]

Man can create art however he wants.
People can choose what they want.
As a man born under communist totalitarian regime I don't support any form of People Dictatorship.

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He laughed at a LGBT suicide. He is spending his money to support groups that enjoy that, he is not a dictator but definitely a danger.

He's like nearly fucking 90 isn't he?

Not to be morbid but give it a few years this won't be an issue.

It's not like it's affecting the games themselves either since XI has a gay character and will let you more or less end up with a male character in the definitive edition.

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Uh, it affects the games by how purchasing them leads Squeenix to keep paying him.

 

[Gold Arsene]

He laughed at a LGBT suicide. He is spending his money to support groups that enjoy that, he is not a dictator but definitely a danger.

Uh, it affects the games by how purchasing them leads Squeenix to keep paying him.

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See the top of the comment.

 

[Deleted member 15428]

Would anyone mind filling me on this guy? I know he's supposed to be a giant shitheel but I'd like to tell if he's just an old asshole or a straight up total bastard.

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Read this https://www.thirdeditions.com/first-print/132-la-legende-dragon-quest-first-print-9791094723708.html

 

[Hamchan]

Of course it can exist without him.

I think Square Enix is just taking the path of least resistance by waiting for this old bastard to die.

 

[Deleted member 48434]

Pretty sure he owns part of DQ so getting rid of him would be very very difficult legally.
He can't just be "dropped".

 

[P-Tux7]

See the top of the comment.

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If Square Enix only drops him because he's dead that means they did not choose to drop him at all. It would be a much greater symbolic victory if they CHOSE to spurn him now.

 

[Dale Copper]

Yes, this is a pretty dumb thread.

 

[P-Tux7]

Pretty sure he owns part of DQ so getting rid of him would be very very difficult legally.
He can't just be "dropped".

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It's like I said. If it can't exist without funding a bad guy (who is famous for working on it), should it exist at all?

 

[Glass Arrows]

I don't particularly blame anyone for not wanting to touch DQ because of Sugiyama. It's certainly left a sour taste in my mouth.

He's not going to be around for that long though, so I would say that yes it can and should exist without him.

Of course it can exist without him.

I think Square Enix is just taking the path of least resistance by waiting for this old bastard to die.

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It's not just the path of least resistance. Sugiyama IIRC owns the rights to all the dragon quest music and unfortunately it's a big part of the series' identity in Japan so it means they have to deal with him one way or another if they ever want to use any of the old music he's already composed.

Of course, the fact that Enix signed off to all this in the first place years back is horrendous and speaks to how normalized Sugiyama's far right views were and continue to be in japanese society.

 

[the magical kitsune]

I'm just hoping it will exist without Sugiyama soon, guy is an old fart and he sure won't change his mind about things now (even if he did, the damage has been done). Dragon Quest is too good a series to not exist.

I kinda feel bad liking the series this much (and its music occasionally) when I know this scum is responsible for some of it ... yet I keep supporting it. Maybe I'm not that good of a person for prioritizing my entertainment over denouncing one's abhorrent values. So I just hope Sugiyama goes away from the picture

 

[Kapryov]

Will I get warned or something here if I say that I'm actually waiting for him to die before even starting with the DQ series?

 

[Gold Arsene]

It's like I said. If it can't exist without funding a bad guy (who is famous for working on it), should it exist at all?

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So are you also going to boycott all Nintendo products seeing as they continue to promote and support Dragon Quest?


Need I remind you that DQXI having the original orchestral soundtrack is being used as a selling point for the Witch version?

 

[IvanTheTerrible]

He laughed at a LGBT suicide.

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Laughing over suicide is not nice. LGBT or not. Though more context is needed because dark humor is the thing.
Maybe he is just old jerk. Does it affects my DQXI experience? No.
Most popular kids book is written by pedophile. Does it means I never read Alice in Wonderland? Will I burn the book in disgust? No.

Why? Because I am grown up man who knows what is good and what is bad by myself. And can separate artist from his creation.

 

[P-Tux7]

So are you also going to boycott all Nintendo products seeing as they continue to promote and support Dragon Quest?


Need I remind you that DQXI having the original orchestral soundtrack is being used as a selling point for the Witch version?

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Priorities. This is far more Squeenix's fault than Nintendo's. Squeenix is also in far more contact and money-dealing with him.

 

[Shoozle]

I'd be bummed to play DQ without his music but one day it will happen and I hope I still enjoy the charming music of future DQ games.

 

[Deleted member 48434]

It's like I said. If it can't exist without funding a bad guy (who is famous for working on it), should it exist at all?

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He's not the only person working on the game, should their contributions be ignored? should this series that makes Millions of people happy just not exist because of a single person?
Besides, he's gonna drop dead from old age soon anyway.

 

[Gold Arsene]

Priorities. This is far more Squeenix's fault than Nintendo's. Squeenix is also in far more contact and money-dealing with him.

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Uh huh.

So did you miss the part where Nintendo negotiated directly over his music?

 

[P-Tux7]

Uh huh.

So did you miss the part where Nintendo negotiated directly over his music?

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Uh, I actually did. I just thought that Squeenix added that themselves to the Switch port.

 

[Neoxon]

Much like the Blizzard analogy you quoted, I guess the reality is that Dragon Quest is too big (especially in Japan) to cancel over one asshole, one who is probably nearing his final years anyway (I apologize if I sound morbid).

Make no mistake, I'd prefer that Square-Enix drop Sugiyama. And him having such a huge hand in the the IP is my main misgiving about Hero being in Smash (though I already bought the Fighters Pass, so.....yeah). But there's sadly not much we can do beyond not purchasing DQ games or any DQ content in Smash (Fighters Pass included, though many likely got the Pass prior to Hero being leaked). Fortunately, Sugiyama's heir apparent isn't an asshole as far as we know, so that's a plus.

 

[Daysean]

Will I get warned or something here if I say that I'm actually waiting for him to die before even starting with the DQ series?

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This forum doesn't really accept pro death/harm statements to any kind of individual, so do with that info whatever you will

 

[Neoxon]

Uh, I actually did. I just thought that Squeenix added that themselves to the Switch port.

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Nintendo likely paid Sugiyama for the rights to his orchestrated for both DQXIS & Smash Ultimate (probably at the same time).

 

[Gold Arsene]

Uh, I actually did. I just thought that Squeenix added that themselves to the Switch port.

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Nintendo is publishing the game and obviously has some sort of exclusivity deal and I assume that would include negotiating over the music given how anal Sugiyama is about not including the original tracks in the western releases.

Presumably they also needed to negotiate for whatever is in Smash.

 

[P-Tux7]

Nintendo likely paid Sugiyama for the rights to his orchestrated for both DQXIS & Smash Ultimate (probably at the same time).

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I'm not trying to say you're lying, but when I asked a few weeks ago if Nintendo was at fault, the answer I got was something along the lines of "Square Enix paid Sugiyama for the rights to use his music in Smash" - not Nintendo

 

[Kapryov]

This forum doesn't really accept pro death/harm statements to any kind of individual, so do with that info whatever you will

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Noted.
To clarify, I'm not wishing harm on anybody. I'm just waiting.

 

[OmegaDL50]

If Square Enix only drops him because he's dead that means they did not choose to drop him at all. It would be a much greater symbolic victory if they CHOSE to spurn him now.

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Keep in mind he isn't a Square-Enix employee. Sugiyama's involvement is unfortunately due to the fact he has 1/3rd controlling rights of the franchise alongside Horii and Toriyama.

There is also the issue that Sugiyama has ownership rights over every piece of music he composed for the DQ series.

Removing Sugiyama is one thing. Being able to freely distribute all current DQ that has his music without his permission is another matter entirely. If Sugiyama is removed from the equation it becomes a licensing nightmare for every single DQ game that contains his music. The only way for SE to get around this issue would be to outright replace every single piece of music from every single DQ game to this date that Sugiyama was involved in some way. No developer does this for old games and I doubt SE will do this either.

There are games that have been delisted for less troublesome aspects. And here's the kicker Sugiyama may be 88 years old, but there is no guarantee he doesn't have material written in advance to be used for future games even well beyond his passing and stipulations in place what happens to his music rights, especially in regards to DQ after his death.

It's pretty messy situation all in all.

 

[Gold Arsene]

Please let it be known that I want the asshole gone too though. I'm just not gonna drop the whole series because of it.

 

[Wulfric]

Am I happy about it? Certainly not. But SQEX isn't going to rock the boat when he's already this old. They can buyout the rights to his work from his estate or heirs when the time comes.

What was Enix thinking back then? I've never heard of a composer having this much control over an entire series.

 

[Strings]

Yes it does.

Would anyone mind filling me on this guy? I know he's supposed to be a giant shitheel but I'd like to tell if he's just an old asshole or a straight up total bastard.

Click to shrink...

Total bastard, but literally owns the rights to all the DQ music.

 

[Neoxon]

I'm not trying to say you're lying, but when I asked a few weeks ago if Nintendo was at fault, the answer I got was something along the lines of "Square Enix paid Sugiyama for the rights to use his music in Smash" - not Nintendo

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Nintendo is publishing DQXIS, not Square-Enix. If SE paid Sugiyama for the orchestrated music, they would have been made available as DLC for the other versions (or better yet, they would have been on the other versions from the start). The fact that Smash Ultimate also seemingly has the orchestrated music lends more credence towards Nintendo being the ones who paid Sugiyama rather than Square-Enix, likely for both Smash & DQXIS simultaneously.

 

[Deleted member 38050]

Dragon Quest will be fine without him. There are plenty of other fantastic composers working in the game industry who could do an outstanding job of taking over the DQ series.
Sugiyama sucks ass but he'll be gone one from the series one day, for one reason or another, and the world will keep on spinning.

 

[Deleted member 10737]

So did you miss the part where Nintendo negotiated directly over his music?

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source?

 

[Mechaplum]

Nintendo is publishing DQXIS, not Square-Enix. If SE paid Sugiyama for the orchestrates music, they would have been made available as DLC for the other versions (or better yet, they would have been on the other versions from the start). The fact that Smash Ultimate also seemingly has the orchestrated music lends more credence towards Nintendo being the ones who paid Sugiyama rather than Square-Enix, likely for both Smash & DQXIS simultaneously.

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Yeah this. At this point my Switch is just waiting for DQXI S but i'm hesitant to actually pay Sugiyama at this point.

 

[Glass Arrows]

Even when Sugiyama passes away they are never going to stop using his music for DQ where applicable. It's way too iconic to japanese gamers for them to replace it, it's several years too late at this point. It might be the more morally correct option but it just isn't going to happen. The best that can be hoped for is whoever replaces him isn't a total garbage fire of a person.

 

[Wulfric]

Yes it does.

Total bastard, but literally owns the rights to all the DQ music.

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If only Nobuo had this wonderful magic contract back in the day $$$

 

[DecoReturns]

source?

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No direct source but it's something you can guess seeing how it's only on the Switch version of DQXI.

 

[OmegaDL50]

source?

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It's a simple deduction. Sugiyama has full creative control over the music rights for Dragon Quest. If Nintendo had to work out a deal to get the Orchestrated soundtrack for the Switch version of DQXI, they aren't talking to Square-Enix for permission.

 

[Lunchbox]

Could make the same arguement for Borderlands & Randy as well.

 

[Gold Arsene]

source?

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I don't have a direct source obviously but given the orchestral music exclusively to the Switch version and it's a appearance in Smash I'm assuming Nintendo must have taken part of the negotiations since he owns all the music.

 

[Neoxon]

Even when Sugiyama passes away they are never going to stop using his music for DQ where applicable. It's way too iconic to japanese gamers for them to replace it, it's several years too late at this point. It might be the more morally correct option but it just isn't going to happen. The best that can be hoped for is whoever replaces him isn't a total garbage fire of a person.

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As far as we know, his heir apparent isn't an asshole, so that's a good sign.

 

[IvanTheTerrible]

It's way too iconic to japanese gamers for them to replace it. It might be the more morally correct option but it just isn't going to happen.

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Why they need to replace his music?! Menu theme is very catchy,