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If BOTW ever gets a sequel that iterates on the formula, I'd like them to hone in more on "pure exploration" (aka Forgotten Temple appreciation)
- Thread starter Dreamboum
- Start date
I agree and another quality of life improvement would be to automatically cycle to another weapon after you lose one.
But it's not just reach? Being able to use shield or not, attack speed, the moves are different..
And using the right weapon for right situation absolutely matters. Especially on master mode.
It's not extreme combat depth but Zelda also isn't a game focused on pure combat. Compared to a lot of other games you have a ton of options in BotW and the combat shines when you take advantage of them all.
Preach! Stasis(which offers tons of combat options), magnesis for attacking with metal objects, two types of bombs, 5 types of arrows, a myriad of weapon styles, environmental kills, even using weather (lightning) to your advantage, slow motion dodge attacks, shield parries and long distance reflects, hell shield surfing off a cliff and slow motion killing a mob with a few well timed headshots and then like clockwork we have people that can only manage to hold ZL and circle an enemy complain that combat needs fixed.
Back on OP's topic: discovering the Hidden Temple as well as my first dragon were magical moments. If they're going to reiterate on the design though I would like more meaningful discoveries. Hidden Temple was amazing but finding some really special one of a kind reward or NPC would elevate it even higher.
how does not wanting weapons to degrade make our game choices boring?
Removing a game mechanic designed to make the game more challenging, designed to make the user experience all the different weapons rather than just sticking with their first favorites, designed to add strategy and resource management to the game. It also makes the weapon that doesn't degrade that much more special, and gives a reason to do all the dungeons, since many have great weapons in them.
Yes. BotW's floaty jump dodges and weak combat are the biggest knock against it.
I also wish the game would take a more serious look at filling the world with lore and story. Everything in Zeld feels a bit arbitrary because of a lack of narrative design built around world detail and environmental storytelling.
Why people is mad when other people suggest an overhaul of the basic and boring combat system of the first game?
Is not a legit critic?
Yes you can smash metal crates on the head of the enemies or throw metal weapon during a thunderstorm, it's nice and all, but is not what you do 90% of the time when you face enemies nor the better way because traditional combat is so much more efficient, let's be honest here...
Is not a legit critic?
Yes you can smash metal crates on the head of the enemies or throw metal weapon during a thunderstorm, it's nice and all, but is not what you do 90% of the time when you face enemies nor the better way because traditional combat is so much more efficient, let's be honest here...
So every game withouth weapon durability is boring for you?
Lol smh...
I agree, but BotW really squandered its potential in this regard. It had almost no indoor environments integrated in the world. The Forgotten Temple could have been so good, but when you get there it's an empty space filled with Guardians. Such a disappointment. For as great as the exploration was, having it take place almost exclusively outdoors was a mistake. I wanted to be able to swim underwater in lakes and discover hidden passageways. I wanted a giant graveyard (why the fuck isn't there a graveyard in BotW?!) with time-sensitive secrets, explorable mausoleums and such. Hell, even simple ruins really had nothing going on. And the wort part was the damn shrines. Every time you solve a riddle you get "rewarded" with a shrine popping out of the round or something. They were such a disappointment every time I saw them. They were never integrated well into the world and they always felt out of place, like the programmers just copy/pasted them into the world.
Don't get me wrong I love BotW for a lot of things and it's a very promising new direction for the series, but it needs to be a lot better in the future. Integrate huge dungeons into the world (Forgotten Temple for example should have been a dungeon) and ditch the shrines entirely and replace them with smaller sized indoor locations like caves, mausoleums and obviously lots more.
Don't get me wrong I love BotW for a lot of things and it's a very promising new direction for the series, but it needs to be a lot better in the future. Integrate huge dungeons into the world (Forgotten Temple for example should have been a dungeon) and ditch the shrines entirely and replace them with smaller sized indoor locations like caves, mausoleums and obviously lots more.
In the same way that Majora's Mask honed in on side questing, yeah that'll probably work.
My big takeaway from BotW is still: More in-world dungeons please. Grottos we excavate and holes we descend into, with something at the end that isn't just a generic like a shrine.
Another BIG reason why I'm just like: Scope DOWN next time, at least in total world size.
My big takeaway from BotW is still: More in-world dungeons please. Grottos we excavate and holes we descend into, with something at the end that isn't just a generic like a shrine.
I'm sure BotW is full of budget cuts. It's one of my pet peeves with it, and I think it includes Nintendo being so tasked with making the overworld well designed and balanced that they didn't have time. I also think even the decision to make these 120 "level-maker" dungeons was one made out of necessity of both budget and scope due to not having time or resources to make unique content for the whole game.
Another BIG reason why I'm just like: Scope DOWN next time, at least in total world size.
BOTW was great and they should keep the formula almost untouched.They need to push their online subs, so I would add more things to discover , more rpgs elements , maybe more crafting and eventually create a wonderful new MMO or shared world game. World of Hyrule. It is really important though to keep the feeling of exploration and do not hand hold the player, as the original did.
Edit: Also forgot to mention the addition of loot. Not like Diablo. Like how it is now, with the good ones have a drop rate so you can come back and farm what you want. Also RNG must be kept away as much as possible. It has the power to destroy the game.
Edit: Also forgot to mention the addition of loot. Not like Diablo. Like how it is now, with the good ones have a drop rate so you can come back and farm what you want. Also RNG must be kept away as much as possible. It has the power to destroy the game.
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Things like Combat Shrines and the ones that were just there to give you an orb after beating an overworld event can go too.
Most importantly it would be good for the difficulty and complexity of them to scale with the players progress.
The DLC did something like that with the giant Molduga. Generally speaking, I loved coming across the three Hinox Brothers, which had unique names. Stuff like that felt amazing and I hope they lean heavily into that with the next game.
It gives areas a whole new sense of history. I don't necessarily want journals to be the main lore vehicle. It's better to have NPCs have dialogue that alludes to what is going on.
One of the strongest aspects of BOTW, that almost no other open world game even comes close to is the distinct world design that allows for verbal directions to actually work. Some directions given in the game consist of little more than descriptions of landmarks and general directions.
Try giving such directions in a game like Witcher 3 and you'd be fucked.
(There is !1! Quest in wild Hunt that does that, and it barely works)
I'm okay with durability but it was badly implemented. Super strong weapons breaking in a few hits cause they were making a lot of damage. Just lol.
This is what I find a little odd about some of the complaints about BotW.
"The combat is bad and way too simplistic"
Zelda combat has always been this way. Every Zelda since OoT has had extremelt barebones combat compared to more dedicated actiom games
"The story is bad"
The stories in Zelda games have mostly been nothing special. Majora's Mask is decent and Link's Awakening had an evocative plot given its time, but other than that the stories have always been average at best. Zelda is not a series renowned for irs strong writing.
It's not that these are invalid complaints but they seem to come up a lot more when it comes to BotW when they are just as bad in other zelda games if not worse.
I would say that actual temples be most important, as the challenge temples were fun but not quite would I expect from a Zelda game. I would rather they had challenge temples as well as actual dungeons.
The only other thing would be durability. Finding stuff and having it break after 5 hits was stupid. If they were instead to make weapons and items more durable, but still break... only to have them need repair at certain vendors? And then use any dupes to repair what you have? I could get behind that. But as it stands some weapons only took 10 hits before they were forever gone. Which just seemed utterly stupid.
But other than that... it was the perfect game.
The only other thing would be durability. Finding stuff and having it break after 5 hits was stupid. If they were instead to make weapons and items more durable, but still break... only to have them need repair at certain vendors? And then use any dupes to repair what you have? I could get behind that. But as it stands some weapons only took 10 hits before they were forever gone. Which just seemed utterly stupid.
But other than that... it was the perfect game.
Ok, time for a take.
Structure:
The game is designed to be played out in the open. A lot of the challenges that you are presented with are in the air.
Certain towers (where finding them is part of the achievement) are quite difficult to unlock unless you're into doing the divine beasts first.
Shrine quests (the actual specified mission based ones) are usually quite a different challenge to the standard variety. The corrupted Dragon one, thunder plains, forest river that ends in a shoot out with lightning firing lizalfos. There is a lot to get stuck into.
What does this tell you? Outside is good, inside is bad. It is telling that the most frustrating part of the game is the Yiga Clan Hideout, where Link is suddenly impeded by the camera, sticking to walls, snagging on environment. It's simply bad. And yet the main complaint seems to ignore this and demand more enclosed arenas, only for the reason that is what the game contained in the past.
The only decent internal environments are controlled. No climbing in shrines, which also remove you from reality into a large open space, and similarly with divine beasts, that are also are essentially a single large room. It is also worth noting that the divine beast interior is simply the end point of a journey that is much larger. The combative route to Zora coming to mind across a sprawling mountain path.
BOTW Link simply needs to be outside.
The game is also designed with accessibility in mind, akin to the assisted modes of Mario Odyssey and Mario Kart. Bite sized portions of game lend to achievement rather than brick walls. Too hard? Go somewhere else and return, you are free to do so. Freedom. Having watched a 4 year old, 5 year old and a completely non-Zelda player go through this game, I certainly see it with different eyes.
The structure also plays to the Switch's strengths. 15 minutes on a train? Commuting? Quick window arisen? Do a shrine, quick side mission, a little explore, a korok puzzle. Always something to do with very little gatekeeping. Conversely, the game is adept at long sessions. Rewarding with experience rather than unique items. Point - I used to love taking a Yakuza Stringer for a cruise or to a high vantage point in GTA 3's final island. Watching storms and fog pass to MSX FM was my reward, not something handed out by the game. BOTW delivers that in spades, go experience, and the locales are always intriguing.
The game is fundamentally incredibly structured, and trying to shoehorn old Zelda structures into it would be to its detriment.
Combat:
BOTW is about survival. You are dumped in the world with nothing. Combat in the early stages is about wits, not entirely about your weapon inventory. It wants your shield to break, you to be reduced to wooden clubs, to be shy of arrows. If you choose to fight, because simply avoiding is an option, you're looking for red barrels to shoot with a self created campfire of flint and wood creating fire arrows, you're looking for elemental Chu chu jellies to get a leg up, you're looking for metal boxes to swing, night or rain to assist a stealth run. What it is not set up for you to do is to plod through with the one weapon you have been using for the previous 10 hours, diligently returning back after every skirmish to go hammer out. The only significant weapons of the game either self-repair or can be repaired. To be frank, on the latter, the prohibitive cost implies that this isn't a game play loop. Do not get attached. By the end of the game you are using, discarding, smashing with a critical hit with ease. Rushing up to guardians on a steed, flipping off to slow mo loose off some disabling eye hits with arrows, quickly lopping off legs one handed before swinging around with a dual handed charge attack. The combat is free and without fuss, very liberating once you get into a groove.
Music:
I will absolutely fight for this every step of the way. The soundtrack in this game is one of the best I have encountered. As it has been rightly pointed out, there is hours of music to enjoy.
First off, thank GOD the overworld theme isn't persistent in this game. With a majority of the game spent just experiencing the environment, having that parp on for HOURS UPON END would be soul crushing. The space created by the sparse field music is absolutely vital. Especially as the music in this game acts as a gameplay cue. At any point, you know whether you are in day or night in the field (i.e. are things going to sprout out of the ground and attack me? will I be able to find glowbugs etc).
Then,the major fixed points in the game all have a radius. When approaching a town, tower, shrine... it always has its theme playing which fades into view the nearer you get, replacing the ambient field music. Often, these locales have variants - the way night themes melt into day themes in the villages and towns is fantastic, I particularly like the different shrine themes that can play depending on where the shrine may be located.
Everything significant has a theme that allows you to play the game without a hud. I'm hot, I'm cold, I'm going to combust because I'm on a volcano. Main characters and events all have a theme, the champions, attacking the divine beasts (externally), major bad guys such as hinox or talus.
The divine beasts themselves are musically delight. Discordant until the time you unlock your first control terminal, reaching a crescendo when you achieve all of them to unlock the main control panel.
Yeah, the music in this game is distinct and masterfully executed. It should in no way be altered in a game structured like this.
Structure:
The game is designed to be played out in the open. A lot of the challenges that you are presented with are in the air.
Certain towers (where finding them is part of the achievement) are quite difficult to unlock unless you're into doing the divine beasts first.
Shrine quests (the actual specified mission based ones) are usually quite a different challenge to the standard variety. The corrupted Dragon one, thunder plains, forest river that ends in a shoot out with lightning firing lizalfos. There is a lot to get stuck into.
What does this tell you? Outside is good, inside is bad. It is telling that the most frustrating part of the game is the Yiga Clan Hideout, where Link is suddenly impeded by the camera, sticking to walls, snagging on environment. It's simply bad. And yet the main complaint seems to ignore this and demand more enclosed arenas, only for the reason that is what the game contained in the past.
The only decent internal environments are controlled. No climbing in shrines, which also remove you from reality into a large open space, and similarly with divine beasts, that are also are essentially a single large room. It is also worth noting that the divine beast interior is simply the end point of a journey that is much larger. The combative route to Zora coming to mind across a sprawling mountain path.
BOTW Link simply needs to be outside.
The game is also designed with accessibility in mind, akin to the assisted modes of Mario Odyssey and Mario Kart. Bite sized portions of game lend to achievement rather than brick walls. Too hard? Go somewhere else and return, you are free to do so. Freedom. Having watched a 4 year old, 5 year old and a completely non-Zelda player go through this game, I certainly see it with different eyes.
The structure also plays to the Switch's strengths. 15 minutes on a train? Commuting? Quick window arisen? Do a shrine, quick side mission, a little explore, a korok puzzle. Always something to do with very little gatekeeping. Conversely, the game is adept at long sessions. Rewarding with experience rather than unique items. Point - I used to love taking a Yakuza Stringer for a cruise or to a high vantage point in GTA 3's final island. Watching storms and fog pass to MSX FM was my reward, not something handed out by the game. BOTW delivers that in spades, go experience, and the locales are always intriguing.
The game is fundamentally incredibly structured, and trying to shoehorn old Zelda structures into it would be to its detriment.
Combat:
BOTW is about survival. You are dumped in the world with nothing. Combat in the early stages is about wits, not entirely about your weapon inventory. It wants your shield to break, you to be reduced to wooden clubs, to be shy of arrows. If you choose to fight, because simply avoiding is an option, you're looking for red barrels to shoot with a self created campfire of flint and wood creating fire arrows, you're looking for elemental Chu chu jellies to get a leg up, you're looking for metal boxes to swing, night or rain to assist a stealth run. What it is not set up for you to do is to plod through with the one weapon you have been using for the previous 10 hours, diligently returning back after every skirmish to go hammer out. The only significant weapons of the game either self-repair or can be repaired. To be frank, on the latter, the prohibitive cost implies that this isn't a game play loop. Do not get attached. By the end of the game you are using, discarding, smashing with a critical hit with ease. Rushing up to guardians on a steed, flipping off to slow mo loose off some disabling eye hits with arrows, quickly lopping off legs one handed before swinging around with a dual handed charge attack. The combat is free and without fuss, very liberating once you get into a groove.
Music:
I will absolutely fight for this every step of the way. The soundtrack in this game is one of the best I have encountered. As it has been rightly pointed out, there is hours of music to enjoy.
First off, thank GOD the overworld theme isn't persistent in this game. With a majority of the game spent just experiencing the environment, having that parp on for HOURS UPON END would be soul crushing. The space created by the sparse field music is absolutely vital. Especially as the music in this game acts as a gameplay cue. At any point, you know whether you are in day or night in the field (i.e. are things going to sprout out of the ground and attack me? will I be able to find glowbugs etc).
Then,the major fixed points in the game all have a radius. When approaching a town, tower, shrine... it always has its theme playing which fades into view the nearer you get, replacing the ambient field music. Often, these locales have variants - the way night themes melt into day themes in the villages and towns is fantastic, I particularly like the different shrine themes that can play depending on where the shrine may be located.
Everything significant has a theme that allows you to play the game without a hud. I'm hot, I'm cold, I'm going to combust because I'm on a volcano. Main characters and events all have a theme, the champions, attacking the divine beasts (externally), major bad guys such as hinox or talus.
The divine beasts themselves are musically delight. Discordant until the time you unlock your first control terminal, reaching a crescendo when you achieve all of them to unlock the main control panel.
Yeah, the music in this game is distinct and masterfully executed. It should in no way be altered in a game structured like this.
I mean I would expect that from a shitty wooden weapon. But when you're starting to be armed with Knight grade weaponry, Royal grade. That stuff lasts.
I liked that part too, for me the reason was that it resembled hand crafted and gamey level design in the sense of an obstacle course such as a level in Celeste or something, instead of merely being immersive landscape. For me this part consisitutes 'actual level design', if anyone gives a crap. Similarly I also liked the challenge of finding a way to get into Ganon's chamber in the castle very early on in the game having only 4 hearts and limited resources, because of the way the whole place was designed tightly with deliberate enemy patrol routes, thoughtful placement of stationary guardians, deciding between climbable vs nonclimbable walls, etc. means the whole scenario becomes an interesting puzzle to solve as you try to find an opening. It's all very thoughtful/obstacle course-y which I really like. Getting through these parts and thereby "beating" the 'levels' feels like a fun puzzle/challenge kind of thing. I don't care about exploration, immersion, realistic environments and so on. I don't think of the Zelda series as adventure/exploration/story games. Basically I want intricate and full length dungeons back =)
The game would fall apart if you remove the weapon durability system because you would be able to cheese the game by finding a strong weapon early on and never 'run out of it' so to say. The rule of thumb in game design is to impose rules and restrictions within the game such that you force the player to play the game in the most 'interesting' manner.
The game would fall apart if you remove the weapon durability system because you would be able to cheese the game by finding a strong weapon early on and never 'run out of it' so to say. The rule of thumb in game design is to impose rules and restrictions within the game such that you force the player to play the game in the most 'interesting' manner.
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It needs to have much better enemy variety, that's probably my main complain with BotW aside from dungeons. I want unique enemies.
OP
OP
Finding dungeons in previous Zelda isn't a surprise, it's literally the game.
You ain't wrong.
Some of BotW's best moments were discoveries like the Forgotten Temple. I'd like more of that as well. Typhlo Ruins kinds of places, with a more seamless transition between the overworld and trial area. I didn't need a monk's voice to spur me on to figure out the puzzle on the Thunder Plains. Just let me discover the place and feel it out.
I mean this is just wrong
Early game weapons like rusted swords and branches do shit damage and break easily
End game weapons last much longer
I find that on ERA ,any combat system that isnt DMC/Dark souls/turn based level of complex is immediately bad.
There needs to be depth to any gameplay element for it to be considered meaningful. We assume that the developer's intention is to invent a system that leads to deep and varied gameplay, and then assess it accordingly. Combat was always a secondary element in Zelda games since ALttP, where the franchise was all about intricate puzzles from that point on. Therefore the quality of a Zelda game between then and now was determined by how well the problem solving aspect was executed, because it was the source of most of the gameplay depth. But in BotW combat takes a more active role while puzzles have been demoted with the removal of full length temples, so it is apt to make combat the focus of attention and criticise it if it doesn't provide enough depth.
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but there aren't? there's like 5 or 6 different weapons in the game, and the only thing that changes is the skin, reach and damage. there's no real difference between a tree branch and the master sword (well, master sword lets you fire beams at full health, so i guess there's that).
and later enemies are such damage sponges that using environmental damage is kind of pointless since the damage caused in negligible.
But for me id argue that puzzles havent been demoted in importance ,they are all still there spread out amongst the shrines ,divine beasts and overworld puzzles to solve. The puzzles where just implemented more organically into the world with stuff like Shine quests.
And i also argue that not every combat system needs to be deep. I think Nintendo focused on accesibility instead in targeting a larger audience and personally i think thats ok.
Right, the game is about incredibly designed levels each unique from the other. Not just walking around looking at stuff that doesn't ever come close to the design of any one dungeon of past games.
Yet the most i enjoyed of botw was pure exploration, not its dungeon design nor the combat. The way i see Zelda really changed, my tastes changed. I think Nintendo understood this.
Zelda tp had incredible dungeons but that was not enought to be a system seller like botw did
Yes and No. When Skyward Sword was functioning properly it had its moments.
That said, just because a game isn't known for something doesn't mean it has to stay weak in that area indefinitely. That's just absurd.
The feeling I want to get from the next Zelda game is to keep the open worldedness intact, then when exploring some corner of the world I come upon an oddly shaped entrance which upon investigating reveals itself to be some sort of dungeon.
Agreed. It's stuff like this that makes BotW so great and why it stands heads and shoulders above every other entry (except MM, which is close). I can only hope we get more stuff like this in BotW2 and less "classic" dungeons and superfluous shrines.
I mean, that moment would be even greater if the Forgotten Temple had been a fully featured optional classic dungeon you're not even required to find.