Id Software addresses the controversy regarding DOOM Eternal's OST release

[Coyote Starrk]

It is not straightforward in the slightest and especially for a game like Doom Eternal where they are crafting their own engine in addition to many complicated components. The fact that Doom Eternal runs so well on all platforms at 60 fps and looks great is a work of art in my opinion. That's why I scratch my head when people shit on id and praise Mick's music. They both did a good job at delivering.

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I'm not "shitting" on anyone. The Doom games are amazing. I never said they weren't. They play great and they sound great.


But for me personally the soundtrack is tied for being the most important part of the game. A game can look good and play good, but if it sounds like crap then it's all for nothing in my opinion. And Micks work was PERFECT for this series. His work has flooded the Spotify playlist that I listen to when I play other games. I enjoy his work that much. By letting him go they have guaranteed that the DLC and the next game won't be as enjoyable for me. So that is it for me.


Doom without Mick is not a Doom I wanna play.

 

[HiLife]

Hip hop doom coming soon.

 

[gravitationsfeld]

It's not the same

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Because it's for a different game?

 

[antitrop]

Are there any tracks to listen to to compare against 2016 Doom? I want to hear what makes Eternal's music so different.

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2016:




Eternal:

 

[Coyote Starrk]

This is so childish. Have you ever considered that if there was no game to begin with, then you wouldn't have any clue who Mick Gordan is to argue for him? Are you aware that you're placing one singular person above all the other people it takes to put a project like Doom 2016 or Doom Eternal together?

It's insulting to put a single person on a pedestal and absolve him of all responsibilities and hold others accountable to those same responsibilities. It doesn't matter if you're a fan or not. People agree to contracts, if they don't fulfill those contracts then that's on them an no one else.

If they don't like the terms of those contracts, then they don't agree to those contracts.

Plain and simple.

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I haven't "absolved" him of anything. I have already acknowledged that both he and ID Software are in the wrong here by the looks of it.

 

[dunkzilla]

Yeah Mick leaving clipped responses and vaguely going "probably wont work with them again" in twitter dms to random fans (apparently before even saying anything to id if we take marty at his word) makes him look kinda lame (or at least naive of how information travels on the internet). Not like in a "Mick fucked up!" way, cus frankly neither side looks super great in the story but more in a "dude, come on" way.

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Mick did fuck up. He released in the in game OST on time, just. Then when working on the soundtrack got a 6 week extension and agreed to it and missed it. Agreeing to a deadline and missing it after getting it extended is fucking up.

 

[SunBroDave]

yeah and the constraints on those artists are not equal to the constraints put on someone like Mick Gordon.

Coding and programming can be rushed if need be. The problems that we see around the industry with crunch is proof of that. But you cannot Rush a soundtrack. That is just not how it works.

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[Deleted member 8196]

Coding and programming can be rushed if need be

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Coding can be rushed and good luck delivering a working product with a code that was rushed.

Some of you are really clueless about how game development work, god damn.

Doom without Mick is not a Doom I wanna play.

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I guess you never played DOOM and DOOM II then.

 

[PC98_Audi]

I haven't "absolved" him of anything. I have already acknowledged that both he and ID Software are in the wrong here by the looks of it.

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How is Bethesda "wrong" here? They clearly stated the amount of time to him, even extended it while keeping his bonus intact and he still didn't deliver. There are no both sides on this particular issue. Gordon didn't deliver to terms he agreed to multiple times.

Also regarding people bringing up "Why wasn't he under contract", it is fairly normal that game musicians work for hire and on short term agreements and handshake deals. While it's not recommended as you can clearly tell from this situation, as someone who worked a long time in video game music it's not uncommon and Bethesda didn't do anything really out of the ordinary there.

 

[Kthulhu]

Found it odd they claim Mick had nearly complete creative freedom over the OST. As I understood Doon 2016 was more of a collaborative effort. Maybe they decided to give him more control in Eternal?

More on topic, seems like it's just a professional disagreement and it's a shame it couldn't work out. Maybe he'll come back some day. I'm sure whoever his replacement ends up being will do a great job.

 

[Azaan60]

Why is it stupid? You can't just ignore the missed deadlines.

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I accidentally quoted the wrong person lol. I've edited my reply.

That was aimed at the "coding and creating the game doesn't matter, only the soundtrack does" guy.

I think Mick is in the wrong here. Missing deadlines is extremely unprofessional and honestly don't blame ID for dropping him. Hopefully they find someone who can work with them more smoothly

 

[roguesquirrel]

Mick did fuck up. He released in the in game OST on time, just. Then when working on the soundtrack got a 6 week extension and agreed to it and missed it. Agreeing to a deadline and missing it after getting it extended is fucking up.

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How does this change my post at all lmao some of yall get so high on correcting people you'll miss the forest for the trees

 

[Dark1x]

This is so childish. Have you ever considered that if there was no game to begin with, then you wouldn't have any clue who Mick Gordon is to argue for him? Are you aware that you're placing one singular person above all the other people it takes to put a project like Doom 2016 or Doom Eternal together?

It's insulting to put a single person on a pedestal and absolve him of all responsibilities and hold others accountable to those same responsibilities. It doesn't matter if you're a fan or not. People agree to contracts, if they don't fulfill those contracts then that's on them an no one else.

If they don't like the terms of those contracts, then they don't agree to those contracts.

What you don't do is not follow those terms then throw people under the bus and pretend that you're not responsible for any of it.

Plain and simple.

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Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Falk]

But you cannot Rush a soundtrack. That is just not how it works.

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You absolutely rush a soundtrack when you have to.

 

[Coyote Starrk]

Coding can be rushed and good luck delivering a working product with a code that was rushed.

Some of you are really clueless about how game development work, god damn.

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People keep quoting me and shitting on what I said as if I support crunch or that I think that it's okay to rush a game. Coding, programing, soundtrack, etc etc none of this things should be rushed. Ever. It almost never leads to a good product. People in the industry should be given the time they need to finish their work regardless of what section of the game they are working on.

 

[Raccoon]

I'm not "shitting" on anyone. The Doom games are amazing. I never said they weren't. They play great and they sound great.


But for me personally the soundtrack is tied for being the most important part of the game. A game can look good and play good, but if it sounds like crap then it's all for nothing in my opinion. And Micks work was PERFECT for this series. His work has flooded the Spotify playlist that I listen to when I play other games. I enjoy his work that much. By letting him go they have guaranteed that the DLC and the next game won't be as enjoyable for me. So that is it for me.

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something about these two bolded statements doesn't add up to me

 

[o Tesseract]

Something I'm not understanding here... and overall I hate this response because it's just pointless "well he said he said he said".

Nah, nah, Id. What was on the contract? It sounds like Mick was contracted for 12 songs. He delivered 12 songs. If you wanted him to do more, you should've written it into the contract.

 

[Dr. Doom]

I did not enjoy the Doom Eternal soundtrack. It felt weak and I heard the same songs over and over again during battle sequences.

 

[Lowrys]

I accidentally quoted the wrong person lol. I've edited my reply.

That was aimed at the "coding and creating the game doesn't matter, only the soundtrack does" guy.

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Lol I was wondering why you disagreed so strongly.

 

[John Rabbit]

This sucks, his music is integral to the experience of those games. Too bad he fucked up.

 

[Dever]

That sucks but I'm sure there's more composers in the sea.

 

[Comrade Crunch]

Shame it had to end like this, the man really left his mark on Doom and no matter who replaces him, it won't be quite the same.

I also loved his work on the Wolfenstein games, his soundtracks really helped with the tone of those games, though I think the series is in great hands with Martin Stig Andersen.

 

[Coyote Starrk]

something about these two bolded statements doesn't add up to me

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That I listen to music while I play games? What doesn't add up? Loads of people do that.

 

[Alienous]

It does seem like they put Mick in a tough spot.

> They announced the OST release date before having a plan to deliver it.
> They didn't contract Mick for it until January 2020, which was already two months past the initial release date.
> They had Mick contracted for 12 songs, which suggests they knew the full 59 wasn't feasible. And the deadline, already announced, wasn't negotiable.
> They didn't decide beforehand what tracks should be delivered (or at least the types of music), and that doesn't seem like it would help a creative process make decisive decisions.

You can see it as id having their good will taken advantage of. But I can also see it as Mick trying to protect his music in an OST release that was moving with or without his involvement.

 

[Dark1x]

I did not enjoy the Doom Eternal soundtrack. It felt weak and I heard the same songs over and over again during battle sequences.

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I loved the atmospheric tracks myself but felt a lot of the rest just drones on too much. It's good but I could definitely go for something different.

 

[NDA-Man]

Okay, taking what both sides said into consideration... assuming Marty's account of it is halfway accurate (albeit probably glossing over mistakes made on iD's part), this whole thing would've been nothing more than a weekend's new story had the initial tweets from Gordon been along the lines of "I didn't mix it, there were issues with deadlines that meant I couldn't. Sorry", rather than "it was some guy in marketing who knew nothing and I don't think I'll work with iD again".

It does seem like they put Mick in a tough spot.

> They announced the OST release date before having a plan to deliver it.
> They didn't contract Mick for it until January 2020, which was already two months past the initial release date.
> They had Mick contracted for 12 songs, which suggests they knew the full 59 wasn't feasible. And the deadline, already announced, wasn't negotiable.
> They didn't decide beforehand what tracks should be delivered (or at least the types of music), and that doesn't seem like it would help a creative process make decisive decisions.

You can see it as id having their good will taken advantage of. But I can also see it as Mick trying to protect his music in an OST release that was moving with or without his involvement.

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Yeah, that too. A bit more foresight from iD would've also probably prevented this. They shouldn't have waited so long to contract for an OST. But they apparently gave Mick several extensions, which he blew. And they should've gotten a hold of the source files for the music, so they could use those for their contributions, instead of the ingame versions.

 

[Azaan60]

Couldn't have said it better.

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The cult around Mick is so bizarre. The dude missed deadlines and all around comes off as very unprofessional.

ID extended his deadlines and even gave him bonus payments. And even after he threw them under the bus, they're still gonna pay him his bonuses.

And then there's the whole "hey there's a guy named Chad who's mixing my tracks as a plan B in case I don't deliver? Let's pool our resources and work together."

Like dude you committed to releasing the soundtrack. Chad shouldn't have been involved in the first place if you had honoured your commitments. And then he ended up throwing Chad under the bus.

 

[Hella]

I've only read Bethesda's account in the OP and a few tweets (I think?) from Mick Gordon, but this just sounds like it was a production disaster that saw the light of day due to such public deadlines. I sympathise with both parties 'cause this isn't what anyone wanted.

I'm glad the Bethesda released this statement though, and is trying to protect their employees from any harassment. Such a detailed account will make it easy to shut down any conspiracy theories trying to get off the ground, and hopefully stem any harassment being sent their way.

 

[Deleted member 29660]

It really sounds like Mick couldn't deliver for whatever reason. I'm sure the next Doom game will have great music whoever does it. A game is more than one person and there are many that still contribute to it.

 

[Fiddle]

Mick is 100% in the wrong for how he left this so open-ended with his comments and DMs to people. He didn't say anything more because it turns out its mostly his fault. Missing deadlines, yeah okay whatever. But essentially allowing a narrative to form that you know is completely wrong? Thats fucked up man.

 

[daase ko]

Well that's an opportunity to take another direction.
More time for the riffs to breathe and not being constantly interrupted by electronic siren break is what I want.

 

[Unfriendly TimeTraveler]

At this point people going too in on this when we have no clue as to the process it takes to making the soundtrack such as how long it takes or the issues that could happen when making the digital OST. He ended up giving the 12 songs as per the contract issue is when he said he could deliver up to 30 if he had more time.

 

[A Grizzly Bear]

Something I'm not understanding here... and overall I hate this response because it's just pointless "well he said he said he said".

Nah, nah, Id. What was on the contract? It sounds like Mick was contracted for 12 songs. He delivered 12 songs. If you wanted him to do more, you should've written it into the contract.

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You should probably have read the open letter. He delivered 11 tracks by the deadline.

 

[elenarie]

Not taking any sides here because I know none of the people involved in this. I'll just quote something that was said for someone very senior, when they got fired (not EA related) for some things:

"Nobody is bigger than the team and the project as a whole."

Also, it is 2020 and gamer trash should really stop with the harassment.

 

[Unfriendly TimeTraveler]

You should probably have read the open letter. He delivered 11 tracks by the deadline.

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The number is everywhere. The post says 12 at one point they said 9 and now 11. Which one is it? The reddit post kinda muddles that number.

 

[Zombegoast]

2016:




Eternal:

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Doom 2016: In a playground

Doom Eternal: I'm going to murder every demon on sight.

 

[Coyote Starrk]

You should probably have read the open letter. He delivered 11 tracks by the deadline.

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Which is obviously on Mick. But ID should have given him more time if he needed it.


Better that something come out late and complete than on time, incomplete, and burning a seriously important bridge in the process like they seem to have done here.

 

[Musubi]

Well, that sucks.

If that is truly the reason behind this then I can't blame Bethesda. Delaying the entire project because the OST wasn't finished for inclusion in the CE would have cost the company a lot of money.

This one seems like its on Mick and that's a letdown.

 

[Tovarisc]

Which is obviously on Mick. But ID should have given him more time if he needed it.

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They gave him TWO extensions on deadline and pushed it against the wire as much as they could.

He didn't deliver.

Edit: Oh extension amount fuck up is on me. Not sure why I for moment there thought he got two extension, did recheck and it was one extension with extra weeks on top of what Mick requested.

 

[Zor]

Not taking any sides here because I know none of the people involved in this. I'll just quote something that was said for someone very senior, when they got fired (not EA related) for some things:

"Nobody is bigger than the team and the project as a whole."

Also, it is 2020 and gamer trash should really stop with the harassment.

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That's weird, as some dude on a game forum was saying there is no game unless there's a good musical score so who am I meant to believe? It's so complicated!

 

[MegaXZero]

I'm curious what Mick's full side of the story is, because reading this tells me he failed multiple times to make deadlines he agree to, with the 2nd deadline being more than what he asked for. He also overpromised and then failed to meet the minimum. To top it all off he then just lobbed the blame at everyone else.

If he doesn't have something substantial to add then this is really his fault and I can't blame id for cutting ties.

The number is everywhere. The post says 12 at one point they said 9 and now 11. Which one is it? The reddit post kinda muddles that number.

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It really doesn't. According to the reddit post, the minimum for the agreement was 12. On the extended due date he only provided 9 tracks initially, which were lacking, and then delivered 2 more later. They specifically say that they looked forward to the last track at a later date as a bonus.

 

[Alienous]

The cult around Mick is so bizarre. The dude missed deadlines and all around comes off as very unprofessional.

ID extended his deadlines and even gave him bonus payments. And even after he threw them under the bus, they're still gonna pay him his bonuses.

And then there's the whole "hey there's a guy named Chad who's mixing my tracks as a plan B in case I don't deliver? Let's pool our resources and work together."

Like dude you committed to releasing the soundtrack. Chad shouldn't have been involved in the first place if you had honoured your commitments. And then he ended up throwing Chad under the bus.

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Bethesda commited to releasing the soundtrack before Mick was contracted.

If he had decided that initial date I think he would be more at fault, but they decided in mid-2019 and got him contracted early 2020. In the interim it's possible he took on projects and other commitments he wouldn't have.

id seemed willing to make the OST with or without him (preferring the former). I can see Mick being in a tough spot of having as much input with the OST as he could, or leaving it to someone else - but that his desired choice of having time to do it all right wasn't an option with an established release date.

 

[SunBroDave]

All parties involved did unfortunately.

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[Coyote Starrk]

They gave him TWO extensions on deadline and pushed it against the wire as much as they could.

He didn't deliver.

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Then they should have extended the overall deadline. Pretty sure fans would have preferred a delay to this mess that ID has put itself into now.

 

[LunaSerena]

yeah and the constraints on those artists are not equal to the constraints put on someone like Mick Gordon.

Coding and programming can be rushed if need be. The problems that we see around the industry with crunch is proof of that. But you cannot Rush a soundtrack. That is just not how it works.

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What the hell is this shitty response?

You mind explaining what the hell makes the constraints put on the rest of id's contractors different from the deadline negotiated by Mick Gordon? So, the rest of the team that crunched to get the game out of the gate in the shape it is can be rushed, which includes the audio engineers, graphics artist, art department, all creative fellows, but Mick Gordon can't be pressured?

What a fantastic way to show respect for all the people involved in creating a game! No, they can crunch to hell and back but a single person can't be rushed!
I hope you realize how ridiculous you sound.

 

[MegaXZero]

Bethesda commited to releasing the soundtrack before Mick was contracted.

If he had decided that initial date I think he would be more at fault, but they decided in mid-2019 and got him contracted early 2020. In the interim is possible he took on projects and other commitments he wouldn't have.

id seemed willing to make the OST with or without him (preferring the former). I can see Mick being in a tough spot of having as much input with the OST as he could, or leaving it to himself - but that his desired choice of having time to do it all right wasn't an option with an established release date.

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Mick agreed to the deadline according to the post. Then he asked for an extension and was given even more time then he asked for, but failed to meet that deadline also.

 

[Unfriendly TimeTraveler]

They gave him TWO extensions on deadline and pushed it against the wire as much as they could.

He didn't deliver.

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But he did deliver what he was contractually obligated to do. The 12 songs. The way it seems is that Id was already working on all the songs as a back up plan. Also where is this two extensions coming from? the reddit post only points out a one 6 week delay and nothing more from what I could find.

 

[BeeDog]

A case of bad planning, no doubt, but fully on id's side due to the way Mick threw the audio engineer Chad under the bus. Fuck that.

 

[wubalubadubdub]

This lines up with what I've heard about working with Mick. He's not mindful or respectful of deadlines, it's unfortunate.

 

[Deleted member 679]

Well, it's a shame, but it's the kind of thing that happens to the best of us, I guess. Props to Stratton for standing up to defend his team.

Honestly, I feel like they should find someone with a completely different voice for the next game. A lot of people will dislike this, but if they just seek someone to emulate Gordon, comparisons will most likely be unfavorable. Being entirely different, at least people will like or dislike based on their own tastes, not how it lives up to a legendary composer.

But he did deliver what he was contractually obligated to do. The 12 songs. The way it seems is that Id was already working on all the songs as a back up plan. Also where is this two extensions coming from? the reddit post only points out a one 6 week delay and nothing more from what I could find.

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He asked for extra 4 weeks and said that it would allow him to deliver 30+ tracks. It's true that he was contractually obligated to deliver only 12, but he asked 4 weeks for 30, got 6 weeks and was still late on delivering the 12. And he didn't communicate this change of plans, apparently, even if it wasn't on his contract.