I'd prefer a game "goes for it" and the execution isn't 100% versus a game with great execution but stops short on the extravagance

[sn00zer]

Finished up FF7 Remake, and I think its my favorite game period. While playing it I kept thinking back to the most recent God of War. The most recent God of War is just straight up high quality throughout. The game is largely impeccable and every scene is just perfected to a tee. FF7 Remake (maybe Kingdom Hearts 3 is a better example) is not. It can be messy, have boring sections that are just fine, but when the game "goes for it" it fucking goes for it. It has huge scenes that are not safe, sometimes they are messy and dont work 100% as intended, but they just feel momentous.

I think in general I like inconsistent games. They feel more daring. There is something about going out on a limb to try and do something, even if its not as technically successful or clean as other games. Nier Automata comes to mind as it constantly tries to rewrite the rules it establishes early. Sure the gameplay is not 100% up to snuff all the time, or the writing is a little inconsistent or whatever, but that doesnt matter when I think back on it. I think about what it tried to do, not necessarily if what it did matched the quality of AAA games.

I think with AAA games, when I think about "playing it safe" its largely feeling the need to make sure that every scene just works 100% as intended. That everything need to be "perfect". But it feels like this atmosphere is not good for building huge moments into. It balloons budgets and scenes can take literal years to create. I'd rather have the big scene that isnt 100% perfect and is a bit inconsistent over the big scene that works perfectly every time, but had to be cut down because of desire to meet a certain quality.

Not ragging on God of War at all (I think Ubisoft games have this issue more than anyone), but it did make me think about the balance of proficiency in executing on a scene versus the extravagance of the content of the scene.

 

[Annabel]

I think may feel the same way as this lines up with how I feel about both FFVIIR and KH3 (which was already a game I liked a lot before all the updates, both free and paid, made it way better.)

This also mirrors my thoughts on a lot of the older 3D Sonic games like the Adventure duo and Shadow the Hedgehog.

 

[Brass Body Dave]

That's why I love Kane and Lynch 2. Surprised at these milquetoast examples

 

[ClickyCal']

Hard to call GoW playing it safe when it was a total genre change in a series.

 

[Weiss]

I was thinking about this today regarding two series: SMT and the work of Taro Yoko.

SMT games don't have big budgets but they do have a history of fleshed out combat, interesting stories and banging OSTs, and Taro Yoko's stuff is no budget and all heart (at least until Automata)

 

[Rogue Kiwi]

That's why I love Kane and Lynch 2. Surprised at these milquetoast examples

Click to shrink...

Yeah the secret "Gerstmann job losing simulator" that was the game within the game was a massive shock.

 

[Asbsand]

This is why I love the Witcher 3 in spite of itself, Mass Effect 1 as well.

Witcher 3: Jank-ass combat but tries its hardest to be real-time with dodging and cool swirling swordfighting moves, and it's just there to compliment a highly adventure/narrative experience where 50% of the game is spent in cutscenes of interactive dialogue. Along with everything else the game is burstling with "features" that only makes the combat seem more impressive and the Bloodborne comparisons seem completely out of touch to me.

Mass Effect 1: Gears of War TPS shooting with dynamic cover before The Last of Us did it right. Again, it's about the narrative, exploration and roleplaying and shooting a gun is just one step of that experience. I know games are hung up on 'gameplay' but to me conversation, running around a hub and managing the conflicts through diplomacy has the same effect as always shooting a pistol, so the combat being very sluggish with bad enemy AI does little to hurt the experience. The game did not polish or perfect the gunplay or the driving in the Mako but it was included anyway because BioWare thought it shouldn't be cut, because it was part of the experience. Then internet-dwellers complained so damn hard BioWare only tried what they could to improve the features before dropping auto-cover, the heat-sink system, the lack of load screens (instead we had elevators and "immersive" loading) and fully ommited anything resembling the Mako for the main parts of ME2. They simply knee jerked to all the bitch-ass players who hated ME1 and shame on BioWare for not sticking to their intuition instead. The replacement was a focus-tested Gears of War clone with only Mass Effect's conversation system intact. That was a great sequel, but it would've been better with heat-sink instead of ammo and a bit more exploration that isn't just the ship or a static hub.

 

[CannonFodder52]

Yep, similarly I pretty much always prefer experimentation with shortcomings over refined iterative works.

 

[bottledfox]

This is exactly how I feel about my favorite game, Xenoblade Chronicles, and many other classic JRPGs. Still, there are plenty of games that swing for the fences which I don't love, because there's something fundamental about their design that I hate. BOTW is not one of those games for me, but it is for people who can't stand how brittle its weapons can be.

 

[Deleted member 679]

I tend to agree, even down to individual parts of the game. For example, I didn't play Astral Chain yet, but it was by far the most exciting Platinum project in recent years, and the biggest reason for that wasn't necessarily that I liked the premise, or even being a big fan of the artist behind the character designs, but because it seemed to have an actual learning curve.

Platinum very quickly fell into "The Platinum Formula". You can pick up any of their action games after Bayonetta, with the possible excepiton of W101, and start doing combos, dodge offsetting and all sorts of shit. They start to blend together. I find learning how to play a game a lot of fun, and I enjoy when studios don't just keep making the same game over and over again. So Astral Chain has you controlling your character and stand at the same time? Awesome, sounds amazing.

A cool premise with competent execution is a lot more exciting to me than a more generic premise with better execution, which tends to be most AAA experiences.

 

[Thera]

GoW have a lot of problems, mainly it pacing, lack of ennemy diversity and boss fight.

I love Nier automata but I don't see it.

More generally, can you be more specif in your exemple please, I failed to understand?

 

[sn00zer]

That's why I love Kane and Lynch 2. Surprised at these milquetoast examples

Click to shrink...

Ive been meaning to get to this game.

Also I need to know if you actually finished FF7 Remake.

 

[leng jai]

The worst thing is blatantly derivative games that are unpolished and don't even execute it well.

 

[spam musubi]

I used to say this too. It's easy to say this as a blanket statement, but it's hard to quantify how much jank is ok, and the amount will vary from person to person. To some, this simply means Mass Effect Andromeda, which is a AAA game that's just poorly put together. To others, it will mean ELEX, which is a AA game with limitations but a lot of ambition. To others, it will mean something like FFXIII which is well made, AAA, but has bizarre design decisions at a fundamental level. To some it will mean something like Cross Code, ridiculously expansive but made by a small team. To others, it will mean Nier Automata, a game that has a decent budget, lots of production value, odd but good design decisions, but some obvious development limitations. To others, it will basically be a derivative, budget game that ends up feeling more "authentic" than a AAA counterpart simply due to limitations leading to some quirky decisions. To others, it will mean a one-person free game on itch.io that's a really cool idea but will never be fully realized.

All of those are really different audiences/expectations, but are talked about under this same umbrella. Some of these groups are even diametrically opposed. So it's good to be more specific when talking about this.

 

[sn00zer]

I used to say this too. It's easy to say this as a blanket statement, but it's hard to quantify how much jank is ok, and the amount will vary from person to person. To some, this simply means Mass Effect Andromeda, which is a AAA game that's just poorly put together. To others, it will mean ELEX, which is a AA game with limitations but a lot of ambition. To others, it will mean something like FFXIII which is well made, AAA, but has bizarre design decisions at a fundamental level. To some it will mean something like Cross Code, ridiculously expansive but made by a small team. To others, it will mean Nier Automata, a game that has a decent budget, lots of production value, odd but good design decisions, but some obvious development limitations. To others, it will basically be a derivative, budget game that ends up feeling more "authentic" than a AAA counterpart simply due to limitations leading to some quirky decisions. To others, it will mean a one-person free game on itch.io that's a really cool idea but will never be fully realized.

All of those are really different audiences/expectations, but are talked about under this same umbrella. Some of these groups are even diametrically opposed. So it's good to be more specific when talking about this.

Click to shrink...

I get what you mean I think the examples I was thinking of

Spoiler: Kingdom Hearts Remind Spoiler

Playing as all of the key blade masters at once, playing as mickey trying ot reach the door. Basically the entire finale of Kingdom Hearts 3

Spoiler: FF7 Remake Spoiler....seriously do not click this

The fandom and fandom expectations being a major story component in the game and the finale.

 

[Kamiyouni]

Do Death Standing vs Mario Odyssey?

 

[Breather-Resistance]

This has been my outlook for a while and I find it reinforced more and more the more games I experience.

It's the reason I prefer Japanese games over their Western counterpart. It's the reason the Kojima's of the industry should not be mocked but should continue to be celebrated for their ambition and creative adventurousness. Like you OP I would much rather play a game with a unique and ambition vision that has a few stumbles over an immaculately polished yet creatively limited game.

It's best captured by the notion of certain games being more than the sum of their parts. I feel like the kinds of games you're more fond of are exactly that, and Japanese games like I said are clear representations of this. While Western games, with scarcer exceptions, can often feel like less than the sum of their parts.

 

[Haze]

I completely agree. I hate when things play it safe.

And this extends to all mediums, not just video games. Take a fucking chance and I respect that a hell of a lot more than refining the trail that's already been walked to death.

 

[Zuly]

This is why I'm probably one of the few Atelier fans that heavily favors Atelier Firis. A lot of the games have been about the MC going on an adventure and with Firis they decided to go with an "open world" feel where you don't have an overworld map and just run around freely everywhere. The idea of exploring freely goes with the MC's personal goal and enhances the sense of adventure. It wasn't perfect but they tried something new and it was exciting.

 

[alr1ght]

I'm playing Spider-man right now and I can't think of another game that plays it this safe that got that much praise. I just don't get it. It's a generic Ubisoft open world game through and through.

 

[Bradford]

I want both.

 

[Lord Azrael]

I agree. I often find myself lamenting missed opportunities in games. It's rare to find something that executes on its concept to the fullest

 

[sn00zer]

I'm playing Spider-man right now and I can't think of another game that plays it this safe that got that much praise. I just don't get it. It's a generic Ubisoft open world game through and through.

Click to shrink...

Agreed. Which is funny since Sunset Overdrive s definitely something I would throw in the camp of "went for it even if it wasnt totally successful at it"

 

[MonadL]

Hard to call GoW playing it safe when it was a total genre change in a series.

Click to shrink...

GoW is a hodgepodge of damn near every popular modern AAA feature bolted onto a very polished packaged. It wasn't that risky lol.

I agree with the OP though. Generally games that at least constantly surprise me are games that I'll usually remember. I've said this before but Drakengard 3 is an ultimate guilty pleasure of mine despite it being mostly a pile of dogshit. It's sweet, sweet dogshit.

 

[Messofanego]

That's why I love Kane and Lynch 2. Surprised at these milquetoast examples

Click to shrink...

Yup, love both Kane and Lynch games despite their shooting gameplay being nothing to write home about, although the grime, scenarios, storytelling, characters, nihilistic atmosphere more than make up for it. Closest thing to Refn's Pusher films in a videogame. Anti-glorification crime tales.

 

[Darkwing-Buck]

Yup, love both Kane and Lynch games despite their shooting gameplay being nothing to write home about, although the grime, scenarios, storytelling, characters, nihilistic atmosphere more than make up for it. Closest thing to Refn's Pusher films in a videogame. Anti-glorification crime tales.

Click to shrink...

This sounds amazing, about to download both on steam lol

 

[Yarbskoo]

I prefer something that's well executed honestly. It can be a big change-up, like Breath of the Wild, or something more familiar like Super Mario Galaxy 2. It just needs to be done well.

 

[Buttzerker]

That's why I love Kane and Lynch 2. Surprised at these milquetoast examples

Click to shrink...

Yeah listing still polished ass AAA games rubd me wrong. I like some TRULY innovative jank. Gimme that ELEX shit that was the most memorable RPG I've played all gen

 

[Messofanego]

This sounds amazing, about to download both on steam lol

Click to shrink...

Get ready for a feel-bad time! Lynch is one of my favourite videogame characters. Until Hellblade, first schizophrenic videogame character I ever came across. Sometimes if it's quiet, you can hear him muttering to himself and responding to voices. In the first game, he visually hallucinates more but in second game less so, because on meds.

 

[BossAttack]

I would agree except I feel the exact opposite about the game you posted as an example, nothing about that game felt daring. Rather, some sections actually managed to meet the standard of its contemporaries before sliding backwards again into the 1990's.

 

[RM8]

Inconsistent can simply mean bad, though. Are we talking about inserting experimental gameplay parts, like in The Wonderful 101? Because I absolutely hated that :x

 

[Polioliolio]

I'm playing through RE2 Remake now. Finished Leon's story. What I actually like about it is that it honors the old game in all the right ways without bogging it down by adding new systems. It enhances everything that was already there, adds quality of life stuff, and it's just great. So in this case, it's the opposite for me.

 

[J_ToSaveTheDay]

I am not sure anyone can so easily disagree with the idea of having a balance of really solid-if-safe options AND high-risk, high-reward style experiences. The only argument is really just going to boil down to which games people define as "safe" and "risky."

I personally think God of War 2018 was super risky, for instance. The change in camera perspective, the redesign of the combat, the entire creative choice to make Kratos' fate after his really gruesome slaughter of the Greek Pantheon a quiet, small new family life in a completely different mythological pantheon??? And that paid off immensely for me as someone who came to kinda get fucking tired of Kratos by the end of God of War III. The combat redesign kinda fell flat when it came to substantial-feeling boss fights — they were amazing AAA spectacles but not terribly engaging nor really beholden to the standard combat rules much of the time.

But yeah, absolutely don't disagree that the industry is better with visible and prolific examples of both "safe" comfort food style design choices and some sharp turns here and there... And I frankly find it impossible to imagine anyone just listlessly wandering solely from samesy/familiar to samesy/familiar game experiences and coming back to tell everyone what a healthy state gaming is in. I, in fact, feel like people that do that tend to report back that games are dull and uninteresting now because we're in the exact opposite conditions right now.

 

[TheClaw7667]

I agree.

I keep seeing all these posts about DOOM Eternal not being as good as DOOM 2016 because you can't play Eternal exactly the same and I just think, good, a sequel shouldn't just be the same game with minimal changes to gameplay and new levels.

id went absolutely for it in Eternal and while not everything is as well executed as DOOM 2016(mainly story) it's a much more interesting and mechanically complex game exactly because id didn't play it safe.

 

[Jonathan Lanza]

I prefer it as well but I prefer it only when it's well thought out.

When developers attempt to solve a problem in games that nobody has attempted to solve and thus come up with some outside the box answers? That's the good stuff, that's when you get your Demons Souls, World Ends With You's and Obra Dinns.

When developers attempt to solve a problem that has already been solved with inferior and cumbersome answers? That's when we get shit like the Guilty Gear Strive lobby system.

Creativity is a rigorous process. A lot of thought has to be put into why things are done and how. When you just mindlessly decide on things based on what you think looks cool then it ends up being the exact opposite of creative, it turns developers into one trick ponies who are unable to really think beyond the scope of what their own personal taste. I will say I think some of Remakes scenes are less creative endeavours and more Tetsuya Nomura having a very specific taste that he simply never wants to deviate from even if it would serve the game better to do so. Not all of it though.

 

[Dark_Castle]

Same. I feel that for me, I generally like games with high highs mixed with low lows than a completely flat game.

 

[Feep]

God of War may have taken some level of risk by changing the fundamental ethos of the series, but what it turned into had already been long-established as a successful style of AAA game: the cinematic action game with deeper emotional beats. It was extremely well done, and deserved many of its accolades, but let's not pretend the developers took some fucking wild leap, here.

 

[Adnor]

This is why I like eurojank games. They might be hold together with duct tape and prayers, but damn they're ambitious.

 

[Daouzin]

100% Agreed, Nier Automata is amazing because of what it goes for and (to me) how close it comes to succeeding at everything it tries, so damn ambitious.

 

[Chewydawg]

100% Agreed, Nier Automata is amazing because of what it goes for and (to me) how close it comes to succeeding at everything it tries, so damn ambitious.

Click to shrink...

I absolutely agree. I really love Nier but I think one thing that actually gets too much shine is its final ending sequence, I think it's great and extremely emotional, but I feel like the game does so many more amazing things when it comes to philosophy, perspective, themes, and music. I tend not to like open-ended where things are left up to the reader to decide because I often feel like the writer was either too lazy or just ill-equipped to answer the questions it presents in a meaningful way. With Nier, I feel like it raises questions comments on the subject matter and lets you come to your own conclusions despite what actually transpires in the story. I absolutely love how Nier goes for it lol

 

[btkadams]

The God of War and FF7 comparison seems really strange to me. I'm loving the FF7 remake and I'm in the last few chapters now, but I don't see how it is doing things any better or more experimental than God of War? FF7 is even more of a linear corridor, has environmental interaction jank, and is not as well written.

I still haven't seen the ending of this FF7 remake so perhaps I should do that first before really commenting in here. I was just going off of my experiences through chapters 1-15.

 

[Hybrid Rainbow]

I think may feel the same way as this lines up with how I feel about both FFVIIR and KH3 (which was already a game I liked a lot before all the updates, both free and paid, made it way better.)

This also mirrors my thoughts on a lot of the older 3D Sonic games like the Adventure duo and Shadow the Hedgehog.

Click to shrink...

I'll agree with you on KH3. Yeah the game is a hot mess overall, but they go so balls to the wall with everything that I couldn't help, but be satisfied even by the end of the game.

 

[HBK]

I used to say this too. It's easy to say this as a blanket statement, but it's hard to quantify how much jank is ok, and the amount will vary from person to person. To some, this simply means Mass Effect Andromeda, which is a AAA game that's just poorly put together. To others, it will mean ELEX, which is a AA game with limitations but a lot of ambition. To others, it will mean something like FFXIII which is well made, AAA, but has bizarre design decisions at a fundamental level. To some it will mean something like Cross Code, ridiculously expansive but made by a small team. To others, it will mean Nier Automata, a game that has a decent budget, lots of production value, odd but good design decisions, but some obvious development limitations. To others, it will basically be a derivative, budget game that ends up feeling more "authentic" than a AAA counterpart simply due to limitations leading to some quirky decisions. To others, it will mean a one-person free game on itch.io that's a really cool idea but will never be fully realized.

All of those are really different audiences/expectations, but are talked about under this same umbrella. Some of these groups are even diametrically opposed. So it's good to be more specific when talking about this.

Click to shrink...

Good post.

I think in the end it can't be summarized as simply as OP thinks. It's all pretty subjective and highly context-dependent. It depends on the game, and it also depends on the player's mood.

Sometimes you'll enjoy an excessively ambitious game despite baffling shortcomings, but sometimes you'll end up thinking the devs bite more than they could chew and should have toned down their ambitions. And sometimes you'll be bored by a by-the-book game, while other times you'll enjoy a tried-and-true formula. All depending on the game, what it achieves, what it fails at, and your own mood.

 

[Fredrik]

God of War may have taken some level of risk by changing the fundamental ethos of the series, but what it turned into had already been long-established as a successful style of AAA game: the cinematic action game with deeper emotional beats. It was extremely well done, and deserved many of its accolades, but let's not pretend the developers took some fucking wild leap, here.

Click to shrink...

They took a wild leap in changing an old long-going franchise enough so fans hated on it at first. It's the Metroid Prime of the God of War IP.

 

[Jencks]

I agree and this is why I love Xenogears to death.

 

[PhantomArtifice]

Absolutely agree.

 

[Deleted member 12833]

I can get down with this. It's why I loved Death Stranding so much. The game just goes for it. It stumbles around a little a bit but when gets to the top.....it's a glorious view up there that feels more personal.

 

[Fredrik]

I don't like unoptimized games but I kinda agree. Mixing it up is a clever way to get some new life into an IP that has gone stale, you'll lose some old fans but hopefully get more new ones. For example: God of War (2018) Resident Evil (4), Forza (Horizon), Metroid (Prime), Zelda (BOTW). It won't result in a success every time but I will applaude the attempt almost always. Gran Turismo (Sports) rubbed me the wrong way though.

My current favorite example of devs going all in is Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom. It's crazy! It's a shooter, puzzle game, 8-bit retro game, and one of the best metroidvanias ever.

 

[Phendrift]

KH3 is a weird example of this because what they went for definitely was awesome and created some really emotional scenes, but at the same time it felt.... going through the motions? Like everything just kinda happened all at once and as one would expect it to in terms of the BBS trio and Days Trio reuniting.

 

[GamerJM]

For other mediums I tend to agree with this perspective to a certain degree (music is a big one), but within games messiness is just hard to deal with because of the interactivity. If there's an aspect of a gameplay mechanic that doesn't really 100% work, that can make the game aggravating to play because you have to grapple with it and deal with jankiness leading to unintended gameplay outcomes for potentially dozens of hours. As someone who plays games more to have fun than to appreciate art, I'd rather just smooth out the edges and play something that's maybe less artistically ambitious but doesn't actively frustrate me as a player.

There are huge exceptions to this though. Some of my favorite games are incredibly messy, and I think that's because to me the best games are games with a precise kind of jank I can deal with. For example, I love Uchikoshi's visual novels, and he's far from a perfect writer, certainly his games aren't as well written as something like Portal 2 or Telltale games. Yet they grapple with much more complex and interesting characters and themes, and the flawed writing doesn't bother me in the way I just described because it's not interactive. Like half of the design decisions in the Sonic Adventure games don't really work, but that's okay because they somehow all come together in a couple of games I can consistently get through with minimal frustration.

On the flip side of this, a lot of AAA games that people will call hyperpolished don't interest me at all because of fundamental decisions they made at the outset (usually genre....cinematic third-person shooters and games with open worlds don't interest me in general usually). So I don't really play a lot of these artistically unambitious hyperpolished games in general. When I think of hyperpolish I usually think of flagship Nintendo games, which are usually pretty inventive in their own right anyways.

So for me, this is more like....idk, give me a new Pokemon game over SMT Soul Hackers, not give me God of War over Nier.