This is a good response. Maybe just change the name of the award.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Ian Walker (Kotaku): Games Made Under Crunch Conditions Don’t Deserve ‘Best Direction’ Awards
- Thread starter BY2K
- Start date
This is a good response. Maybe just change the name of the award.
It truly is a double edged sword. Glad I don't work in video games.
That involved Konami turning up the heat so it would be unbearable to work there, so they could fire people. And a whole bunch of evil shit. Those stories are insane and not related to crunch.
Now we're getting into project management territory. There is a lot of semantics going on I know. But the award "best direction" is about how effective a game is at executing its vision, how the creative work uses the medium as a game to engage us.
If it was the award for "best studio"/"healthiest studio" I get the dissatisfaction. I still don't think we should disregard the quality in the direction or quality of the work. The judges played these games are just awarding the results, and not the processes. Any idiot dev whose main takeaway from these awards is they need to crunch while ignoring the tremendous talent needed that got them there is spreading bullshit.
There are more meaningful ways to call out crunch than this specific award. The award is about "creative direction", and judges have the results in front of them. What they don't have is a transparent look at each nominated games' intentionally secretive internal processes to base their decisions on, nor are they focusing on that. Again, I don't think crunch means we should automatically disregard the quality work these studios make, and you can still call out the studios practices without broadly invalidating all of the contributions and work involved there.
Comparing film to video games is silly. Filming of Blade Runner took 4 months, and Ford made like $2 million (in 1982!), so he was well-compensated for his troubles. It's a profession where everyone knows going in that the hours and conditions are going to be brutal, but that you only have to do it for a certain amount of time. Production of Last of Us 2 was like 10x longer than that, and I don't think it's fair to say that developers are compensated well-enough to justify 6-7 day weeks and constant overtime.
That's the thing though. Were they really effective at executing their creative vision if they had to resort to unsustainable business practices to achieve it?
I'm not sure a famously flawed movie that has constantly resulted in different parties going back to fix it is the best example here.
Same with Mad Max Fury Road. People complained to George Miller about the grueling nature of the shoot, lots of exhaustion.
If the argument is that Harrison Ford knew what he was getting into...literally everyone knows what AAA development is all about.
But that's not even what we're talking about. Rather, it's a pretty obvious fact that artistic vision and managerial skill are not and should not be considered the same thing.
Or, simply game direction != studio direction.
The production crew worked harder, longer hours and made a fraction of that. It wasn't just Scott and Ford making Blade Runner - there was a crew of hundreds.
The average game developer makes a lot more than the average movie crew member and they have much higher bonus potential. It's not a great comparison.
The point flew a mile over your head.Games made under crunch deserve awards because not giving them an award just means all their hard work went towards nothing. End of. Besides, in the AAA games industry I don't see where many don't crunch towards an end of a project so who are we to say they don't deserve an award? TLOU2 deserved every single award last night and critics knew it too because they voted for it.
Thank you. TLOU2 got voted for best direction for their creative vision and innovation, not for being a project manager or producer who deals with day to day staff. Some people are trying, and failing, to conveniently mix the two together. Was there crunch involved with this game? Most likely but I imagine even the directors were crunching towards the end of the project.
I think your straw man in the first line really undercuts your second line.
As for your second line, honestly, there's an argument to be made there about Directors receiving awards on shoots they've poorly managed, and Hollywood is a notoriously abusive industry that we're JUST starting to crack at with MeToo. There's so much more work to be done within the film world to make it an accessible and healthy space.
I used to work in the film industry where "crunch" is unfortunately common as well so I speak from experience in parallel; in you will.
Should we apply this theory to car of the year awards as well?
Oftentimes great achievements are forged into existence with blood, sweat, and tears. Reasonable working conditions are important but
this is an industry problem that could be mitigated by Unions imo.
Should we apply this theory to car of the year awards as well?
Oftentimes great achievements are forged into existence with blood, sweat, and tears. Reasonable working conditions are important but
this is an industry problem that could be mitigated by Unions imo.
Wait do you think everyone who works in film gets paid huge amounts of money? Or that we take vacations after shooting ends?
Hell, I'm jealous of game developers for the long term gigs. I work maybe six months per job and the last two are a panicked sprint to try to find another gig and start the whole process again.
Incredibly depressing thread. Not rewarding crunch in a single category of an award show is the tiniest fucking symbolic ask, and even that seems to be going way too far in the eyes of some.
Ah, yes, Blade Runner. That laser-focused vision of a film. Immutable movie, that one.
Yep. John Landis literally ignored safety regulations and got multiple people killed while filming The Twilight Zone movie and it basically did nothing to his career to the extent that his son Max was able to grow up and get famous (off his dad's name) until he (Max) got MeTooed.
Games made under crunch deserve awards because not giving them an award just means all their hard work went towards nothing. End of. Besides, in the AAA games industry I don't see where many don't crunch towards an end of a project so who are we to say they don't deserve an award? TLOU2 deserved every single award last night and critics knew it too because they voted for it.
Thank you. TLOU2 got voted for best direction for their creative vision and innovation, not for being a project manager or producer who deals with day to day staff. Some people are trying, and failing, to conveniently mix the two together. Was there crunch involved with this game? Most likely but I imagine even the directors were crunching towards the end of the project.
This take is something else. Holy shit, this place produces some gold.
There is no separating the two. The "creative vision" is what creates the scope of work for the game, and thus the amount of work it will require, which is a (if not the) key determinant of crunch.
In what world does a game director get to make meaningful decisions about the shape and scope of a game but be left blameless for the workload mandated by the decisions they made?
The inclusion of the gif really takes it from "This a comically bad take" to "Oh my god, what".
We got to stop being selective on who gets a pass and who doesn't. It should just be "crunch is bad" full stop.
I think the thing to remember is that if the game awards or any outlet decides that inhumane crunch takes you off the table, it's not like anything is getting snubbed because it's all made up anyway. There's no objective mesure for best direction or best game or whatever so if we just collectively decide that working conditions are part of the cirtiteria then it can be. It's just as valid as any other metric you can think of
Remember that the game awards are not criticism or artistic analysis but fake publicity trophies. We do not need to rewards this behavior
Remember that the game awards are not criticism or artistic analysis but fake publicity trophies. We do not need to rewards this behavior
Last edited:
Well yeah they were effective because the player connected to the game. Best direction is more about how the game is using the medium to engage. The player isn't really thinking about the processes behind the scenes. That's not what they are asked to evaluate.
If TGA wants to clarify "Best Direction" and say "it also is about having a healthy development process". Sure now the award is very clear, and ND isn't in the running, and now a judge and viewer better understand the criteria.
I really don't think Best Direction is about that. Direction has never been about how healthy things are behind the scenes, it's been more about how is this creator bringing their vision to life and how effective is it.
the post I was responding to focussed on Harrison Ford's troubles on the set of Blade Runner. I am well aware that film crews work longer hours than actors, for much less pay, and that scheduling is difficult and hard to predict because shooting schedules can be hard to fit around each other.
Crunch is validated with every award and 85+ metacritic score.
Unless........
Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not"
Sorry. Just watched The Lorax with my daughter.
What if sites like metacritic or open critic and award shows didn't include games with crunch, or where there was documented abuse in the office?
Unless........
Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not"
Sorry. Just watched The Lorax with my daughter.
What if sites like metacritic or open critic and award shows didn't include games with crunch, or where there was documented abuse in the office?
Don't mind them they are known for loving the taste of leather
Games made under crunch deserve awards because not giving them an award just means all their hard work went towards nothing. End of. Besides, in the AAA games industry I don't see where many don't crunch towards an end of a project so who are we to say they don't deserve an award? TLOU2 deserved every single award last night and critics knew it too because they voted for it.
the avatar, the words, the gif...
you could tell me this post was an elaborate parody and id believe it holy shit lmao
What a comedically bad take. That plus the avatar are just goldGames made under crunch deserve awards because not giving them an award just means all their hard work went towards nothing. End of. Besides, in the AAA games industry I don't see where many don't crunch towards an end of a project so who are we to say they don't deserve an award? TLOU2 deserved every single award last night and critics knew it too because they voted for it.
Thank you. TLOU2 got voted for best direction for their creative vision and innovation, not for being a project manager or producer who deals with day to day staff. Some people are trying, and failing, to conveniently mix the two together. Was there crunch involved with this game? Most likely but I imagine even the directors were crunching towards the end of the project.
I can agree. They crunch because they can. They crunch because it wins them awards and they make bank. Why not crunch if no one is doing a thing to stop you
I remember just yesterday I was confronted with "showing the receipts" when it came to Era users handwaving crunch with TLOU2 because it's Naughty Dog.Games made under crunch deserve awards because not giving them an award just means all their hard work went towards nothing. End of. Besides, in the AAA games industry I don't see where many don't crunch towards an end of a project so who are we to say they don't deserve an award? TLOU2 deserved every single award last night and critics knew it too because they voted for it.
Thank you. TLOU2 got voted for best direction for their creative vision and innovation, not for being a project manager or producer who deals with day to day staff. Some people are trying, and failing, to conveniently mix the two together. Was there crunch involved with this game? Most likely but I imagine even the directors were crunching towards the end of the project.
Looks like I have to look no further, lol
Also, directors usually have a little bit more leeway when it comes to allocating work hours towards a project. Druckmann already was a major studio figure before he became VP recently, so he could have been in a position to ask for more time. Instead he - together with the studio heads - made the other devs go through crunch. Also, if the director voluntarily puts on more hours it sets the precedent that everyone should work more, too. Just great stuff.
Imagine appealing a permanent ban for console warring then getting quoted like 50 times for an astronomically bad take less than a week after getting back and then immediately ducking out of the thread to post under cover of the PS OT.
Who's getting those awards? It's not the employees being rewarded for their hard work, it's the people making them work hard in the first place.
The Last of Us Part II is an interesting case when it comes to crunch culture, or rather Neil Druckmann is. He was a VP in 2018 and now is co-president. He is and has been part of Naughty Dog's management for a while and now is at the executive level. He has an incredible amount of influence within the company, so I think it's more than fair game to hold him accountable for working conditions during production of the game as well as current and future projects in the pipeline.
I don't like the framing of the article and Walker totally loses me by comparing the game to Hades aside from Supergiant Games having actual ethical working conditions. Not a great article but a decent starting point for discussion.
I don't like the framing of the article and Walker totally loses me by comparing the game to Hades aside from Supergiant Games having actual ethical working conditions. Not a great article but a decent starting point for discussion.
Go one step further.
Any Developer that treats their staff as a piece of material to be ground to dust against the grindstone that is Crunch...should FOREVER, be barred from any hopes of achieving Game of The Year.
Period.
The Crunch and the human toll on that team is pretty much the entire reason why I refuse to play any games from that Studio.
Any Developer that treats their staff as a piece of material to be ground to dust against the grindstone that is Crunch...should FOREVER, be barred from any hopes of achieving Game of The Year.
Period.
The Crunch and the human toll on that team is pretty much the entire reason why I refuse to play any games from that Studio.
This is where I'm at too... I just feel like naughty dog is getting so much shit because part 2 was controversial more than people legit caring about the well-being of the developers. Like compare how crunch is bought up in relation to part 2 vs. Something universally loved like red dead. Not a barley a peep on the latter. In my opinion, selectivism should not be a thing with this... i know this is specifically about part 2, but even outside of specific topics... some people are playing musical chairs on what company is bad for crunch vs. what company isn't. And that bothers me because it feels like this shitty practice is being used to shit on a game over the real people that are suffering for it.
After giving this some more thought what's the difference with movie directors who are very demanding of their cast? Stanley Kubrick would do endless takes until he was satisfied.
Some of these visionaries don't care about the human factor, they just want what they want. There is a reason whyNaughty Dog are notorious for having employees leave.
RDR2 was talked about a lot at the time, but unlike TLOU2 it didn't win Best Direction at the biggest ad-event disguised as an award show.
And people who use it to dunk on a company/game they personally don't like can just piss off. Thanks to asshat like them, you can't have an actual discussion about anything. Heck, even try criticising the game and some peanut brains try to paint you as some GG douche. The whole discussion culture is a dumpster fire.
Nah, it's fine. Long periods of crunch are bad management and in TLOU2 also part an editorial that was clearly missing.
yeah
Kotaku's Jason Schreier: Inside Rockstar Games' Culture Of Crunch
https://kotaku.com/inside-rockstar-games-culture-of-crunch-1829936466 Here's the story Jason has been working on the last weeks. Here's a sample: Adding more links to new articles, thanks hydrophilic attack Eurogamer...
www.resetera.com
nobody
Inside Rockstar Games' Culture Of Crunch
In the final year of development on Red Dead Redemption 2, the upcoming Western game, the top directors decided to add black bars to the top and bottom of every non-interactive cutscene in hopes of making those scenes feel more cinematic, like an old-school cowboy film. Everyone agreed it was...
kotaku.com
talked
Rockstar employees were working "100 hour weeks" for RDR 2 [UPDATE: Rockstar's response]
We got a separate Thread for the whole article but I thought this part should be discussed separetely, as Rockstar Co-Founder Dan Houser still seems to think that inhuman work conditions are something you should proudly boast about in interviews...
www.resetera.com
about
L.A. Noire Crunch Culture, Bondi issues, RockStar Boss chimes in #NoCakeDay
With the RDR2 100-hours/week controvery growing bigger and bigger, more devs are using this occasion to talk about their own experiences in the industry, but one of them is particularly striking since it also concerns a Rockstar published game that wasn't reported before...
www.resetera.com
Rockstar
Edit: people don't talk that much about rockstar anymore because there are reports that it is improving https://kotaku.com/18-months-after-red-dead-redemption-2-rockstar-has-mad-1842880524 , but Rockstar is still remembered as an example of bad crunch environment. Stop with this "b-but they only complain about naughty dog :(" bullshit.
Last edited: