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Pariah

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,945
A huge part of a director's job is managing people. A director who only cares about their precious vision and not the people working under them, who may not even like their vision all that much, should probably be working as a one man indie dev instead.
But that's rarely the case; it would be up to producers/managers to do such tasks, while directors remain focused on pushing ahead with the creative process. In a company known for lacking the aforementioned roles, the process might even be more complicated, but it certainly doesn't fall on the director's plate.

Anybody can see they have a management problem, resulting in crunch and other undesired circumstances (as with so many other companies); yet all that is disconnected from direction, or the usual function of a director. It's all the same as it takes the conversation back to an earlier point: nobody judges the process, only what the team aimed to achieve at the start and what they obtained in return, under the direction of a particular individual.

Many directors have been true SoBs, but they got the best work out there, and that's all that matters until the conversations changes.
 

coldcrush

Member
Jun 11, 2018
786
As a developer I 100% agree. Would love this to be the case, unfortunately SO many games have a lot of crunch in their development, Especially critically acclaimed games.
If people keep speaking out though like this thread and elsewhere we can steer the ship the other direction. Developers need to feel comfortable to speak out against their employer to shine a light on this business practice. The really sad fact is so many of your favorite games and companies, and studios with great directors crunch their employees too much. Consumers continually forgive this and as such no matter what a nice ''outside'' image these studios portray or how they communicate the ''necessity'' of the crunch to their employees internally, they see their workers ultimately as an expendable commodity and the games completion above human beings. I have lost track of the rallying emails, and pep talks, bribes of free food etc that the studios try and give you to trick you into thinking that crunch is ok.
Thankyou anyone speaking out on this and please continue to do so, when long periods of crunch and overwork becomes unacceptable to the consumer the companies will be too scared for the public backlash to their image and product and will change course.
 

Le Dude

Member
May 16, 2018
4,709
USA
The big problem are the big premiere studios, and they crunch A LOT, but since they release good games the press will hardly care.

Rockstar
CDPR
Santa Monica
Naughty Dog
Netherrealm Studios
And sadly all of those studios have been home to titles that recieved enormous acclaimed despite being the product of extended development, tons of staff, and reports of extended periods of heavy crunch.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,896
TGA is weak for not mentioning the absolutely awful crunch culture going on at Naughty Dog, they're not just condoning but approving of it. Work your employees into a burnout and we'll give you a ton of awards, consume consume consume.

Games media has a ton of growing up to do, but given that the the majority of outlets have been PR branches for the industry since day one I don't ever see that happening.
 

Zukuu

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,809
In the end the product counts for awards unless the award is directly for stuff where those parts are involved.
For movies it's the same.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
What a silly take. Might as well apply that to everything with bad working conditions instead of selectively focussing on TLOU 2. But you don't for whatever reason. Especially when direction has literally nothing to do with how the game was made.
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
The Industry self fellating awards aren't going to do anything critical of said Industry.
 

haveheart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,076
True.
Then again, this should be the job of a producer and not the director.
Also, they should maybe stop reviewing these game that were produced under crunch.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,938
TGA is weak for not mentioning the absolutely awful crunch culture going on at Naughty Dog, they're not just condoning but approving of it. Work your employees into a burnout and we'll give you a ton of awards, consume consume consume.
It's funny because Geoff was more than happy to publicly shame a publisher for mistreating its workers when it involved a friend of his (who was also a high profile exec).
 

zer0_X

Alt-Account
Banned
Apr 23, 2020
790
I would go as far as saying games with crunch don't deserve any awards.
You can say that depending on the category that would be actually punishing the staff, but truth is we, with some excepetions, NEVER associate the awards with the person or group that wins it, we always associate it with the game, and that is also rewarding the "abuser"
 

VanDoughnut

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,424
Isn't direction for executing a vision and creative direction of a project. So in that sense it still deserves to be there. There is a lot there about the direction that is great: the performances, the degree of difficulty of the scenes, the structure, etc.

It's not for who had the best project management?

Crunch should be called out. But I don't agree that if a studio crunches, their work should automatically be disregarded and derided.
They need to be called out for their practices, but their work is still valuable.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
If you mean me, this is a misrepresentation of what I wrote and I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I have never excused crunch. I just don't think this particular award category is relevant to the topic of crunch and explained why.

You literally wrote "most games are created with crunch"
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,938
Isn't direction for executing a vision and creative direction of a project. So in that sense it still deserves to be there. There is a lot there about the direction that is great: the performances, the degree of difficulty of the scenes, the structure, etc.

It's not for who had the best project management?

Crunch should be called out. But I don't agree that if a studio crunches, their work should automatically be disregarded and derided.
They need to be called out for their practices, but their work is still valuable.
Their work as a whole is valauble, yes.

This is about awarding the leadership of somebody who failed to lead the team efficiently enough to execute his vision without forcing the people under him to work in conditions that shouldn't have been necessary. Best direction *should* take into consideration things like that. That it doesn't is a failing of this industry and the people in charge of the ceremony to consider that.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,357
You literally wrote "most games are created with crunch"
They are, but that was not even the main argument I was making, nor was I excusing crunch whatsoever. You're citing me out of context in order to misrepresent what I actually said. Please don't do this.
 

DNice

Member
Oct 2, 2018
161
It would help if some of these articles attempted to more narrowly define what "crunch" means, not just use the term as some pejorative. If it simply means having to work copious amounts of hours to get a big project done then I dont know what to tell you. There are millions of people across several different industries working ridiculous amount hours per week on projects to get them done and meet deadlines.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
They are, but that was not even the main argument I was making, nor was I excusing crunch whatsoever. You're citing me out of context in order to misrepresent what I actually said. Please don't do this.

Well I am sorry then. I was upset but I guess given that English is not my native tongue I misunderstood your point. Again apologies.
 

chatsquared

Member
Nov 19, 2020
499
What a silly take. Might as well apply that to everything with bad working conditions instead of selectively focussing on TLOU 2. But you don't for whatever reason. Especially when direction has literally nothing to do with how the game was made.

People are "selectively focusing on TLOU2" here because it was selected as the winner of the award for best direction despite it having notorious crunch problems as well as being in a category with a different game that notably did not crunch its devs. The conversation is about this specific category, which TLOU2 won. If it didn't win and was still nominated then I could understand where you're coming from but it's being singled out because it won.

Especially when direction has literally nothing to do with how the game was made.

Could you clarify what you mean by this?
 

Furisu

Poutine on the Ritz
Member
Dec 5, 2018
2,991
I agree.

If the VGA changed their policy (and not just for this category tbh) that could start a conversation about the need to eliminate crunch. These awards are clearly very attractive to the game companies. But maybe I am just naive in that regard and nothing would change.

As it stands, not a whole lot of outlets are taking companies like ND or CDPR to the task. The more attention this issue gets, the better and such a policy change could steer the ship in the right direction.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I feel the game on it's own deserves it but I agree with him on the crunch and development side of the issue.

Just letting crunch pass as something that "happens" and can't be improved on is bad.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Thank you for speaking up. Absolutely agree. More importantly, we have devs in this thread saying this is 100% valid, so this isn't up for debate.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
People are "selectively focusing on TLOU2" here because it was selected as the winner of the award for best direction despite it having notorious crunch problems as well as being in a category with a different game that notably did not crunch its devs. The conversation is about this specific category, which TLOU2 won. If it didn't win and was still nominated then I could understand where you're coming from but it's being singled out because it won.



Could you clarify what you mean by this?
Luckily for them the term direction has nothing to do with project management. When one talks about the direction in a narrative driven, visual medium they are absolutely not talking about how the game was made.

You can judge the direction of art with 0 information about the production side of things.

You could argue that out of principle no product with bad working conditions should be eligible for any award in which case I would agree if you could actually reliably enforce it.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
A lot of people in this thread don't seem to know what game direction in this context entails. This isn't an award for best production, HR, working conditions etc, but best direction of the games design itself. Eg how creative, ambitious, innovative, technically accomplished, well designed etc it is.

If you're going to use crunch as a reason to invalidate said award, you might as well use it to invalidate TLOU2 and countless other games over the years from recieving any awards at all, else all you're doing is misconstruing what the award actually constitutes.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
For all of those here then who still buy those games knowing they have been done under crunch, don't you all feel selfish? And considering how much TLOU2 has sold for sure the majority of PlayStation gamers on this board have bought it. So why say the game doesn't deserve the award of you yourself are also supporting this with your wallets?

No. I work under crunch, my team (and they barely make over minimum wage, which infuriates me) works under crunch, and sister departments work under crunch. Welcome to wage slavery!

We got that about 3 months out of every year.
 

AnimaRize

Banned
Nov 7, 2020
3,483
I agree.

If the VGA changed their policy (and not just for this category tbh) that could start a conversation about the need to eliminate crunch. These awards are clearly very attractive to the game companies. But maybe I am just naive in that regard and nothing would change.

As it stands, not a whole lot of outlets are taking companies like ND or CDPR to the task. The more attention this issue gets, the better and such a policy change could steer the ship in the right direction.
it wouldn't stop crunch, but it would help fight it as it stands now games that crunch get awards making crunch look a very appealing option if you are after awards
 

never

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,836
I feel bad for all the devs stuck in these companies that abuse them and then have to watch as the people responsible for this get awarded. That's messed up.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,500
A lot of people in this thread don't seem to know what game direction in this context entails. This isn't an award for best production, HR, working conditions etc, but best direction of the games design itself. Eg how creative, ambitious, innovative, technically accomplished, well designed etc it is.

If you're going to use crunch as a reason to invalidate said award, you might as well use it to invalidate TLOU2 and countless other games over the years from recieving any awards at all, else all you're doing is misconstruing what the award actually constitutes.

I'm perfectly fine not giving out any industry awards to any company that is exercising shitty practices like multiple 100 hour work weeks. Fuck your dumbass "award" and your "creative vision".
 

TheKeipatzy

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,724
California for now
I love this take and I hope it sticks to Cyberpunk next year because after all that crunch after all that effort the game is still playing like crap on some consoles (and PC!)
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
It would help if some of these articles attempted to more narrowly define what "crunch" means, not just use the term as some pejorative. If it simply means having to work copious amounts of hours to get a big project done then I dont know what to tell you. There are millions of people across several different industries working ridiculous amount hours per week on projects to get them done and meet deadlines.
Should read Jason Screier article, you'll find Naught Dogs definition of crunch, which includes intimidation and retaliation (career wise).
 

noinspiration

Member
Jun 22, 2020
2,009
Entirely correct. And if they can't find a game to nominate that didn't rely on crunch to get made, suspend the award. This year, Hades was right there.