Ian Walker (Kotaku): Games Made Under Crunch Conditions Don’t Deserve ‘Best Direction’ Awards

[RROCKMAN]

If you bought the game you support crunch, it's as simple as that. It's an entertainment product, so it's not vital, you can easily go on with your life without it. So you can't have it both ways, I completely disagree with you on this.

Click to shrink...

I'm wish things were totally black and white like that In real life

Its totally possible to buy TLOU2 AND not know shit about the whole crunch debacle. My older brother was about to before I told him.

Had people with the power to reach large swaths of people actually gave half a shit (big news companies, this site, etc.) then we could made that news well known and your point would stand

Not everyone is in the know about gaming news and you hilariously broken logic would exclude those that brought it, didn't know, and then found out afterwards.

"Oh tee hee you are a crunch supporter your opinion is invalid" is not how this works holmes.

 

[Deleted member 49438]

I don't disagree, but wasn't crunch a huge problem at Naughty Dog even when Straley was there? From what I remember from Blood, Sweat, and Pixels is that ND has always been a crunch studio, which is exacerbated by how they don't utilize producers.

Click to shrink...

This was at least noted in Schreier's March Article from Kotaku:

At Naughty Dog, there is no production department. Over time, the company has hired a couple of producers to help with scheduling and other tasks, but the studio's philosophy has long been that everyone should act as their own producer. "

Click to shrink...

If they have no production department then yeah this pretty much falls on Druckman.

 

[btkadams]

I agree with the premise but how could the voters in this know who didn't crunch? Obviously it would disqualify ND because it's public knowledge, but what if they give it to someone who does crunch and hasn't been featured in the news for it?

 

[Jawmuncher]

You know the industry has a problem when an article like this just brings to the table "who wins the awards then" since we have word of crunch from indie, AAA, and everything in-between.

 

[MrBadger]

No one here or in the kotaku article has a single clue how this game was directed and what under what conditions.

Click to shrink...

Are you going to try and pretend there wasn't an investigation into crunch at Naughty Dog?

 

[Plum]

No one here or in the kotaku article has a single clue how this game was directed and what under what conditions.

Click to shrink...

As Naughty Dog Crunches On The Last Of Us II, Developers Wonder How Much Longer This Approach Can Last

Some developers at Naughty Dog continue to ask themselves a question that has haunted the studio for years: Is it worth it?

kotaku.com

 

[Bold One]

Project Management is different to Direction.

 

[Deleted member 5621]

I think artistic direction is different than production.

They can and often run into each other just like many other roles. I can't count how many times executice producers and project managers have stepped in and made choices that caused entire teams downstream to crunch, but sometimes that is beyond the control of the creative director.

Click to shrink...

Naughty Dog doesn't have producers

Naughty Dog: "No Producers, No Management, Just us Working as a Team" - IGN

The team on the studio's success, bantering with Rocksteady, Uncharted's future and more.

uk.ign.com

that's part of their whole deal

"Production isn't direction" isn't a valid argument here under any stretch of imagination

 

[Aldo]

Game developers: unionize. There's no other way.

 

[Anya7890]

Among Us team crunched like hell in the game after it exploded in success. Stardew Valley guy too, if you read the Jason's book.

Click to shrink...

Nintendo claims their average work day is 7 hours 45 minutes per day

Average Nintendo Japan employee earns $80,000, works less than 8 hours per day

Nintendo has revealed some interesting stats about its work culture, including average working hours and salary.A recru…

www.gamesindustry.biz

You can choose to not believe them, but that's what they say.

Click to shrink...

Oh hey! More crunch news that shows naughty dog is not the ultimate evil villain that does this! Almost as if this an industry related problem or something.... and that is what gets me! why is naughty dog being paunted as the ultimate villain for this shitty practice? The way some talk about them in relation to crunch feels like they are saying that by stopping naughty dog from doing it equals to stopping all crunch. And that is straight crap! Naughty dog isn't the final boss to defeating crunch because we still have a bunch of other companies that do the exact same thing!


And last time it was bought to light from not naughty dog, you had the twitter peanut gallery going after the journalist for exposing it! I'm not making excuses for naughty dog either, crunch is horseshit & it should not be done. I just don't like that one company got a year long shit flogging out of it, while CDPR got people going to bat for them when they where exposed for the exact same thing! speaking of: I hope that when CDPR & gow are nominated for best direction next year, people are saying the same thing... because that would look quite selective if people don't hold them to the same standards p

 

[MrBadger]

Project Management is different to Direction.

Click to shrink...

Does that make crunch okay?

 

[Fezan]

So?



Pretty telling. People act like Neil doesn't have the power to look after his workers, his inaction shows that he cares more about the product.

Click to shrink...

Bruce was director on uc4 and he was just as guilty of crunch culture as Neil is. He was not a subordinate of Neil

 

[Acquiescence]

I think it would be great if all games that were made in crunch conditions were automatically disqualified from being included in The Game Awards. That way I'd only have to sit through a 20 minute show instead of a three hour bloatfest.

 

[Bold One]

Does that make crunch okay?

Click to shrink...

dafuq?

 

[Deleted member 9306]

Supergiant Games
Insomniac
Respawn Entertainment
Iron Galaxy
Obsidian
Valve
Moon Studios

Are some of the studios that don't actively crunch on their projects.

The big problem are the big premiere studios, and they crunch A LOT, but since they release good games the press will hardly care.

Rockstar
CDPR
Santa Monica
Naughty Dog
Netherrealm Studios

Click to shrink...

Thanks for the list! I'll continue to put games made by those studios first.

 

[elenarie]

I think there will be no AAA title left to win the award.

Click to shrink...

Pretty sure that won't be the case.

 

[Morrigan]

No offense, but who cares? It's a video game awards show, not the Department of Labor.

Click to shrink...

None taken, but clearly the people discussing this topic do care about having strict standards for this award.

It does not change how I feel about the topic though. If this conversation was about "We should not award games that are made using problematic working practices" then I'm on board in theory but struggling with the practicalities. But singling out this Best Game Direction? I just don't get it at all.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much where I land.

Best Direction is being singled out because that topic is specifically about the process behind how the game was made.

Click to shrink...

That's production, more than direction.

I'm sorry but this is such a lame excuse; you don't want people to take it into account because every other company hasn't been thoroughly documented as well? Really?

This is about sending a message that crunch isn't okay, not updating the guidelines in a specific award category.

Click to shrink...

I struggle to see how arbitrarily disqualifying some games/studios from a single category (category which has nothing to do with corporate management or production) would actually send a strong message at all, is all. If TGA wanted to send a message about crunch, the way to do it would be to exclude those documented problematic studios from nominations to begin with, and make a statement as to why they are excluded, and perhaps even air testimonies of devs during the show to highlight the problems. But, well, that's not what TGA is all about, lol. TGA is a celebration of vapid hype culture and fandom. It feels very naive to expect this from the group that hires random cinema celebs who likely never played a game in their lives to read a teleprompter about "telling stories" to suddenly start criticizing the industry it's intending to celebrate with all that fluff.

I mean, this is the show that played War Pigs during a Call of Duty trailer, lmao. Now that was some tone-deafness they could have at least avoided with minimal effort.

 

[deli]

I'm not making excuses for naughty dog either

Click to shrink...

This whole post is literally a bunch of excuses for naughty dog.

Why is there a legion of people going 'what about this?' 'what about that?' the topic at hand is pretty obvious and clear and if you don't feel comfortable in talking about it there's the option of not posting.

 

[Crushed]

That explains it, and is a spectacularly poor decision on part of the Game Awards.

Click to shrink...

To be clearer, the penultimate award before GOTY in 2014 and 2015 was "Developer of the Year." In 2014 Nintendo won (while Dragon Age: Inquistion won GOTY; BioWare wasn't even nominated for Developer). In 2015, CDPR won while TW3 won GOTY.

Then for whatever reason, they changed the award to "Best Game Direction" for specific titles instead of studios - but with the sole exception of 2019 (when Sekiro won GOTY and Death Stranding won Best Direction), Best Game Direction has always just been a second GOTY award in disguise.

 

[Vito]

A good game's a good game, crunch shouldn't have anything to do with being more or less rewarding of an award, so I completely disagree.

Click to shrink...

100% agree.

 

[MegaSackman]

Thanks for the list! I'll continue to put games made by those studios first.

Click to shrink...

Media Molecule also doesn't do crunch iirc and they'd appreciate if you buy Dreams ^^

 

[ShroudOfFate]

As much as I love TLOU2 and consider it one of the best games the entire gen I agree. Direction is more than just the final shape of the product, it must take into account the management of the team and by some very credible accounts ND was not well managed by all the crunch they did.

 

[MrBadger]

dafuq?

Click to shrink...

I'm asking you if you think that makes a difference. The core argument here is that crunch should not be celebrated or rewarded.

 

[Herey]

What they're talking about doesn't fit the TGA definition of the award e.g. emphasis placed on design etc, so I wouldn't put this on those that voted necessarily, but eh, the bigger stigma crunch has the less likely studios will engage with it, so it's a worthy point to make.

I am still so surprised that games like Super Smash Brothers Melee and Majora's Mask became so legendary in video games when they were heavily crunched games.

Click to shrink...

I don't think it's surprising at all. A lot of people are either ignorant (because they haven't heard about it or it's unreported) or they pick and choose which studios crunching are bad. Or they just straight up don't care in general.

 

[Plum]

Oh hey! More crunch news that shows naughty dog is not the ultimate evil villain that does this! Almost as if this an industry related problem or something.... and that is what gets me! why is naughty dog being paunted as the ultimate villain for this shitty practice? The way some talk about them in relation to crunch feels like they are saying that by stopping naughty dog from doing it equals to stopping all crunch. And that is straight crap! Naughty dog isn't the final boss to defeating crunch because we still have a bunch of other companies that do the exact same thing!


And last time it was bought to light from not naughty dog, you had the twitter peanut gallery going after the journalist for exposing it! I'm not making excuses for naughty dog either, crunch is horseshit & it should not be done. I just don't like that one company got a year long shit flogging out of it, while CDPR got people going to bat for them when they where exposed for the exact same thing! speaking of: I hope that when CDPR & gow are nominated for best direction next year, people are saying the same thing... because that would look quite selective if people don't hold them to the same standards p

Click to shrink...

If Naughty Dog doesn't want to be hated on for crunching then it's on them to stop crunching, not on us to stop criticising them for it. Waiting until we know exactly who is and isn't crunching, so we can make our criticisms as 'fair' as possible, is just time wasted that we could be using to advocate for actual change in an actually-accomplishable time-scale.

Also I do find it a little funny that you're using the examples of.. a single guy and... a team of three people, to downplay the actions of a massive multi-million dollar corporate development studio with mega-corporation backing. It's like saying Jeff Besoz isn't the "final boss of over-working warehouse employees," because Dave the Car Repair Man is a bit of a workaholic.

 

[Fezan]

Does that make crunch okay?

Click to shrink...

Then gate should be directed towards Evan wells who is the president of nd

 

[nonoriri]

This was at least noted in Schreier's March Article from Kotaku:


If they have no production department then yeah this pretty much falls on Druckman.

Click to shrink...

Right, but what I'm saying is I don't think that crunching at Naughty Dog started with Druckman, though he deserves criticism for when it happens on his products. If he left tomorrow to form Druckmann Studios, it seems to me the culture and set up of the company that lends itself to crunch would persist and that it has persisted even from earlier days in the studio. It seems like its crunch being normalized has been a thing for a long time and the entire studio needs a serious culture change.

 

[PaperSparrow]

You know the industry has a problem when an article like this just brings to the table "who wins the awards then" since we have word of crunch from indie, AAA, and everything in-between.

Click to shrink...

I think that's why having an award with no (known) months-years long crunch as a prerequisite is important. If it's the same five devs every year, so be it, the industry needs to highlight that over giving an honestly sort of pointless otherwise award.

 

[Trey]

These studios don't get punished by sales and they don't get punished critically, so what incentive is there for the owners and managers to make any kind of change? Appreciate Kotaku making a deal about this but when the sites that get 100x as much traffic trip over themselves to award GOTY to crunch made titles, it doesn't really matter.

Click to shrink...

There is zero incentive, and most companies won't change too much, if at all. But knowing how the sausage is made has its own value. it's good to both report on, and discuss within the community.

 

[IMCaprica]

I voted for TLOU2 for GOTY and agree with this. If ever there was a category that could (and should) survive without games made by crunch, it's that one.

 

[MrBadger]

Then gate should be directed towards Evan wells who is the president of nd

Click to shrink...

Okay, sure he sucks too. But we're talking about the award show from last night

 

[Odeko]

Oh hey! More crunch news that shows naughty dog is not the ultimate evil villain that does this! Almost as if this an industry related problem or something.... and that is what gets me! why is naughty dog being paunted as the ultimate villain for this shitty practice? The way some talk about them in relation to crunch feels like they are saying that by stopping naughty dog from doing it equals to stopping all crunch. And that is straight crap! Naughty dog isn't the final boss to defeating crunch because we still have a bunch of other companies that do the exact same thing!


And last time it was bought to light from not naughty dog, you had the twitter peanut gallery going after the journalist for exposing it! I'm not making excuses for naughty dog either, crunch is horseshit & it should not be done. I just don't like that one company got a year long shit flogging out of it, while CDPR got people going to bat for them when they where exposed for the exact same thing! speaking of: I hope that when CDPR & gow are nominated for best direction next year, people are saying the same thing... because that would look quite selective if people don't hold them to the same standards p

Click to shrink...

Lol, I don't think you meant to quote me there. My post doesn't exactly support your Naughty Dog defense

 

[aceldama]

Definitely a more semantic question and I fully agree game developers should be critisised for poor treatment of workers but isn't the role of a director entirely creative while getting the work done is a production/project management responsibility?

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Shelley Duvall's and Jack Nicholson's performances in The Shining are two of the most incredible performances ever seen in a horror film. However, to get those performances Stanley Kubrick intentionally abused Duvall emotionally, and he encouraged Nicholson to be emotionally abusive as well. He did so because he believed that the raw emotional reactions he wanted on camera would not be possible without actual emotional distress on the part of the actor.

Click to shrink...

Instead of abusing a woman that was under his control and not in a position to fight back maybe he could have tried asking the actors to, I dunno, act.

 

[Jogi]

Best quote from the article:

A popular online statement, first coined by Fanbyte podcast producer Jordan Mallory, says, "I want shorter games with worse graphics made by people who are paid more to work less and I'm not kidding." The message from all those who share it is clear: No game, not even industry darling The Last of Us Part II, is worth destroying lives to create.

Click to shrink...

 

[Diarrhea Day-Lewis]

The Game Awards are a celebration of the games industry by the games industry. The moment they become too critical of the industry, they'd risk losing the support of the industry they rely on. You won't see Geoff taking any controversial stances since that would put at risk the reason the industry sees worth in the awards in the first place.

Click to shrink...

True, and I very much understand that. I just wish someone with a big platform in terms of eyes on them in the industry would help spread awareness to consumers. Because if the general consumer doesn't understand the issue and react with their wallets, nothing will ever change as each dev team that does intense crunch will always be rewarded.

if TLOU2 would've had to wait an extra 6-12 months but the staff got 40 hour work weeks, I would've been fine with it.

as is, all I can do is vote with my wallet even if the outcome is that this decision likely has little impact. For CP2077, I am choosing to not buy it new, and if I ever buy it, I will buy it used.

enough former staff have come out saying they pay low wages and that the profit share may be bigger for execs than lower staff so I don't feel comfortable with supporting Them. but when I look at advertising, I is fine 99% of CP2077 buyers have no idea what's going on sadly.

 

[Fezan]

Okay, sure he sucks too. But we're talking about the award show from last night

Click to shrink...

Yes and if we should criticise some one or should be Evan wells. Neil is co director of a game and of jury thinks he did a great job directing he should be awarded.

It just seems like people are just against certain personality not actual issues

 

[MrBadger]

That's production, more than direction.

Click to shrink...

Yes, I've already argued this point. Refusing to compromise your creative vision at the expense of what's feasible without crunch is bad.

Yes and if we should criticise some one or should be Evan wells. Neil is co director of a game and of jury thinks he did a great job directing he should be awarded.

It just seems like people are just against certain personality not actual issues

Click to shrink...

I'm against crunch. I consider that to be a huge issue and it has fuck all to do with the personalities of any of the people who enforced it.

 

[Akronis]

Best quote from the article:

Click to shrink...

agreed wholeheartedly

personally, as the years have gone by, I have been less and less interested in giant 100+ hour open world extravaganzas and hyper polished mega hits

give me more unpolished, ambitious jank where the devs are clearly not suffering to finish it

 

[Servbot24]

I am in support of TLOU2 winning most of the awards it got, but I can't argue with Ian on this one.

 

[Deleted member 1627]

It just seems like people are just against certain personality not actual issues

Click to shrink...

Please stop.

 

[Judge]

Bold of you to assume companies will stop if they get no awards when the games sell 10m+ a pop

Click to shrink...

Who's saying they are gona stop? We can at least not publically reward them and further normalize it

 

[kiguel182]

They awarded bad work conditions

 

[AnimaRize]

yep the game should be criticized not rewarded if it is the result of clear employee abuse, but no one will care because the other controversy surrounding the game in question.

if you think that studio will eventually stop crunch, druckman is now vp, he initiated crunch on that game, it will continue

 

[deli]

Yes and if we should criticise some one or should be Evan wells. Neil is co director of a game and of jury thinks he did a great job directing he should be awarded.

It just seems like people are just against certain personality not actual issues

Click to shrink...

No, parasocial relationships with game companies shouldn't be the basis of how we talk about labour exploitation, one the key issues hanging over the game industry. What even is this?

 

[BossAttack]

Yup. I agree. A director who pushes their staff into crunch is not a good director.

Click to shrink...

I don't really think a director has the ultimate call when it comes to crunch. If publisher needs the game out by a certain date then it either ships broken or is crunched to ship in a playable state. It's not like the director can force the publisher to invest more money with delays.

 

[N.47H.4N]

Best direction is for "outstanding creative vision and innovation in game direction and design".

This has literally nothing to do with whether or not a studio crunches.

Click to shrink...

Kotaku as always fishing clicks

 

[Jon God]

I totally agree with this. Even as a ND fan.

Enough with celebrating crunch culture. Burn it to the ground.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Yeah that makes sense.

[walks into thread]

Ah.

[walks out]

 

[Deleted member 1627]

I don't really think a director has the ultimate call when it comes to crunch. If publisher needs the game out by a certain date then it either ships broken or is crunched to ship in a playable state. It's not like the director can force the publisher to invest more money with delays.

Click to shrink...

Like, who do you think is setting the scope of the game? Or at least approving these things?