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Ian Walker (Kotaku): Games Made Under Crunch Conditions Don’t Deserve ‘Best Direction’ Awards
- Thread starter BY2K
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I won't argue about this but gamers can't have it both ways. (Epic single player experiences vs standard games) That will aways be up to the individual to define but the amount of work into a game like TLOU won't be found in the majority of games out there. I mean just the credits probably last a good 5-10 minutes lol.
If best direction has nothing to do with the production of a game and is just about "artistic production" then it's LITERALLY just Game of the Year 2 or Best Art Style 2 and is extra redundant.
Nintendo claims their average work day is 7 hours 45 minutes per day
Average Nintendo Japan employee earns $80,000, works less than 8 hours per day
Nintendo has revealed some interesting stats about its work culture, including average working hours and salary.A recru…
www.gamesindustry.biz
You can choose to not believe them, but that's what they say.
If you really want to discuss technicalities like that, one could argue that a "creative vision" that drives people to crunch and such unhealthy work conditions is not one worthy of an award.
But this doesn't even matter. It's not about this. There are multiple instances of an artist falling off from awards race or outrage over specific wins because the works were made under inhumane conditions or by verified shit persons. Context has always mattered in awards and I don't see why it should be ignored here because the category descriptor doesn't explicitly mention it. (Edited paragraph to remove names and specific examples that were needlessly inflammatory and a bit overboard)
Look, it's fine to play videogames made under less than ideal conditions. It's pretty much impossible to avoid them and the politics of the videogames industry is more often than not at odds with the progressive ones this forum adopts. But when you have something like The Game Awards, when you are celebrating the industry and have the unique opportunity to award something that's special, I really don't think it's too much of an ask to say these awards should go to games that promoted healthier work practices.
(Also, Best Direction is replacing the old award for Best Studio. Even more reason why TLOU2 shouldn't have gotten it)
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we have to start dismantling the machine somewhere.
you've already given up tho
You do realize that scheduling is the Producer's job and not the director's, right?
"Awarded for outstanding creative vision and innovation in game direction and design"
It has nothing to do with project management. And it can't because even if we do have reason to believe that Naughty Dog's studio management is problematic, we extremely little information with which to judge the working practice of any studio. Awards like these judge the product. They can't judge the production because we know so little about the production.
Exactly, it would be impossible to regulate.
Some companies have widely spread articles about their crunch problems, sure, but others (especially in Japan) are secretive, and unless an employee blows the whistle, you wouldn't know if they had a crunch problem. So you might disqualify Naughty Dog, but not From Software, not because From doesn't crunch, but because they haven't been documented as such.
So how do you regulate such an award, you gotta do investigative journalism on the corporate culture of all the nominees? lol.
It's easy to agree with the article because it's well-meaning and feel-good, but in practice, the suggestion is myopic or borderline impossible.
At the same time, Naughty Dog, as part of Sony, has access to so much more resources than Supergiant when developing TLoU. The studio could have hired far more people to reduce the invidual burdens or they could have accepted that, to get normal working schedules, the game should have been released in 2021 instead of 2020. They have the money that an indie does not.
And they still crunched. Shouldn't we take that into consideration, also?
No one is doing that. But that is not what the award is about. If it was for Best Studio Management and ND there would absolutely be a case.
By this very few games would be nominated just because people have a problem with crunch. That's not how awards are decided at all. Not to mention GOTY from many publications are given to games that have crunch.
I applaud them for using this as a light to shine on the issue though.
Am I completely tripping here or did this award have absolutely nothing to do with how the studio is run? I thought it was about game design and direction so you would think a game like TLOU2 which is superior to anything else released this year would win, which is did. 110% employees should not have to crunch because a work life balance is important but how this relates to this award in particular confuses me, if it releated to studio management then ND would be way down that list and rightfully so.
TLOU2 man oh man, who knew a game could cause this much ruckus.
TLOU2 man oh man, who knew a game could cause this much ruckus.
I somewhat understand crunch when a game studio desperately needs to ship the game on time in order to stay in business, and keep people employed. I don't like it in any situation, but if a delay is make or break for people's continued employment. Then, you know, I can justify it in my head.
But Rockstar Games? EA? Naughty Dog? CD Project Red?
There's no excuse but *greed*.
But Rockstar Games? EA? Naughty Dog? CD Project Red?
There's no excuse but *greed*.
Quit being obtuse. The award wasn't for "the one nominee that didn't crunch"
TGA and Geoff Keighly are not to blame for crunch. This is a problem that needs to be severed at the root. TGA is like the tip of the highest branch of the tree.
Nintendo claims their average work day is 7 hours 45 minutes per day
Average Nintendo Japan employee earns $80,000, works less than 8 hours per day
Nintendo has revealed some interesting stats about its work culture, including average working hours and salary.A recru…
You can choose to not believe them, but that's what they say.
Alrighty, good enough for me
Should, but no one is going to hold ND to task here
Got people here arguing semantics just so they can be justified in ND keeping its award lol
So youve chosen to dismantle the machine by picking at its most meaningless parts? Lmao. Cod wins like no awards and isnt even nominated most of the time, still sells top 3 every year eith relentless crunching. How bout you get devs on board with the idea of unions instead
Like really what's the difference between giving TLOU2 GOTY and Game direction that one felt well deserved while the other was whoa too far
A lot of the game's crunch stories came around the time when the game leaked and story details got spoiled all over the web, which caused the toxic and cyclic discourse of the game to ensue. I also recall there was that one industry person on Twitter who posted his own personal accounts of what it was like working at ND, but much of it was also buried due to said person's critique of Sony/ND's general attitude to game development.
I don't see why Naughty Dog, CDPR, Rockstar, or any company that is notorious for crunching should be celebrated in any way for the way they make games.
Shouldn't some blame fall on Sony and other publishers footing the bill? Then you can say scale down projects but what if things are in full swing and the publisher slaps a timeframe on them that will cripple them? That's not entirely the directors fault. But I agree they shoulder most of the blame
There's a difference between rewarding a good game and rewarding good direction of a game. A good product that is well managed shouldn't require crunch. It doesn't matter how the game turned out. The award isn't about the game but the leadership behind it.
Game direction absolutely contributes to game crunch what are you guys talking about lmao
who do you think keeps demanding more features
who do you think keeps demanding more features
It should probably be taken into consideration at least.
That's almost certainly under reported but at the very least the Monolithsoft leadership have been against it, having to do overtime is considered a failure of management.
Nintendo claims their average work day is 7 hours 45 minutes per day
Average Nintendo Japan employee earns $80,000, works less than 8 hours per day
Nintendo has revealed some interesting stats about its work culture, including average working hours and salary.A recru…
You can choose to not believe them, but that's what they say.
That's almost certainly under reported but at the very least the Monolithsoft leadership have been against it, having to do overtime is considered a failure of management.
Being obtuse? What? The point is maybe we should award that behavior. Especially when there's another nominee in the category that doesn't practice it. What the fuck are you talking about
But we do know the conditions of the production of this game. And many games, thanks to devs and journalists working together to bring it more to light.
This becomes semantics so I can tell we'll never agree. Unethical working conditions should not be rewarded, I know we both can agree on that at least.
Among Us team crunched like hell in the game after it exploded in success. Stardew Valley guy too, if you read the Jason's book.
If we are making these rules, better to just end the TGAs.
This is the recurring problem when every developer want to make "our biggest and most ambitious game ever".
Cyberpunk 2077, TLOU 2, RDR2, MK 11 and God of War are prime examples of this exact expectations and all these studios had to go through years of development and a lot of crunch to deliver their product. The fact that all these games proved to be successful in one way or another even with the "crunch" is just going to legitimate all these studios to continue with their modus operandi for their next product.
MK12 or IJ3 are going to be NRS biggest project ever, so will God of War Ragnarok, GTA 6, The next Witcher and ND next project and the same cycle will repeat.
Sounds good. Sorry Geoff, you're out.
I don't think that is a fair comparison to use small devs as an example. Often they work hard because it's their game. Someone like Naughty Dog employs lots of people so the pressure is different. Of course you want to please your peers but there is also an expectation to toll the line.
Yeah, here are some examples. I don't have links to the articles but Naughty Dog had a lot of things come out recently this year about this. I also don't necessairly know how true they all are.
While its not very detailed that in combination with the fact that people tend to stay at Nintendo much longer than most studios indicates people are fucking happy as hell there.Nintendo claims their average work day is 7 hours 45 minutes per day
Average Nintendo Japan employee earns $80,000, works less than 8 hours per day
Nintendo has revealed some interesting stats about its work culture, including average working hours and salary.A recru…
You can choose to not believe them, but that's what they say.
Crunch is bad really bad. I would love for developers to unionize and take every step to prevent this from happening in the future.
But not rewarding people for their achievements especially after such hard work is also bad. Also avoiding crunch responsibility less on webcam Wells and other managers
But not rewarding people for their achievements especially after such hard work is also bad. Also avoiding crunch responsibility less on webcam Wells and other managers
Are you for real? Bringing up Polanski and Nate Parker as a point of comparison?
Wow.
TLOU2 haters are wild.
Not really. Valve for example, if reports are to be believed, stopped with crunch after the soul-crushing crunch they did during HL2.
Nintendo claims their average work day is 7 hours 45 minutes per day
Average Nintendo Japan employee earns $80,000, works less than 8 hours per day
Nintendo has revealed some interesting stats about its work culture, including average working hours and salary.A recru…
You can choose to not believe them, but that's what they say.
Wasn't Sakurai working with an IV instead of taking time off just to make sure Smash came out
That's a team of four people and a team of one guy. Not comparable to a company with tons more resources to combat the fact that they're crunching.
I'm glad to see this article because the tiny amount of discussion this has had is frustrating. People need to stop praising the director for putting out "such a polished product", as if that severe amount of detail was even necessary
If you can't fulfil your creative vision properly without copious amounts of worker abuse, you compromise it.
Whatever, I'm arguing semantics. The people saying "well technically that has nothing to do with direction" just don't want to talk about the crunch, or the ethics behind heaping so much praise on the game's director without addressing it.
If you can't fulfil your creative vision properly without copious amounts of worker abuse, you compromise it.
Whatever, I'm arguing semantics. The people saying "well technically that has nothing to do with direction" just don't want to talk about the crunch, or the ethics behind heaping so much praise on the game's director without addressing it.
This is my thought. I understand the sentiment behind not giving it to ND but that only because we have knowledge that crunch has taken place. But it's been through investigative journalism, ND isn't announcing "we're crunching".
ND doesn't deserve it.