I will say this: Burton was much more subtle with his themes than Nolan was (Batman movie thread)

[Uzumaki Goku]

I love both styles and they both had their own takes on the Dark Knight, but Burton was much more subtle about the tragic loneliness that Batman's life entails.

In a scene where Bruce and Vicki are having dinner, Bruce says "Actually, Alfred IS my family."

Both have scenes where Alfred asks Bruce when he wants to start a family, Nolan lays it on thick, while Burton simply has Bruce say "I don't have time for it." Alfred merely asks. "If not now when?" Or my favorite line in the 89 film. "I have no intention to fill my few remaining years grieving for the loss of old friends. Or their sons."

Who did Batman better? Well, most people would probably say Nolan and in many ways, I agree, but Burton definitely has the edge in terms of subtly.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I like how Burton Bruce didn't even know what a vichyssoise is

 

[Officer Big Mac]

Subtle = having the dialogue spell it out?

 

[Deleted member 60582]

Burton 100%. He really showed how damaged, lonely and crazy Bruce really is. I appreciate Nolan's different take on Batman (though it's almost like Bruce in Begins is a totally different character than he is in TDK/R), Burton really showed that Bruce cannot exist without Batman, such as when he leaves Vicki in bed to go hang upside down looking out the window, pretending to be a bat. He showed the Bruce mask slipping off from time to time, which is something Nolan never really did.

Of course, there's room for all sorts of different takes on Batman, but the whole "I will only be Batman until the city doesn't need me, then I'll go be with Rachel" shit drove me nuts.

 

[The Ethereal One]

Burton's Batman was clearly deranged and thats why I prefer that version because lets face it Batman is just as loony as his villains.

I never thought Nolan's Batman was particularly scary or intimidating but Burton's? I would hate to face that dude in a dark alley.

 

[Scullibundo]

Pssst. What you're talking about in the Batman films aren't the themes of the movie.

If loneliness was the theme of either of Nolan's films, he's the most subtle motherfucker in the world or the most poor communicator in the world.

 

[Edgar]

It's not just batman. I like Nolan a lot, I think he's one of the greatest and most talented modern directors. But he ain't subtle with any of his movies.

 

[jviggy43]

Pssst. What you're talking about in the Batman films aren't the themes of the movie.

If loneliness was the theme of either of Nolan's films, he's the most subtle motherfucker in the world or the most poor communicator in the world.

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I mean Nolan batman spent all 3 movies moping around about rachel. Hell the third movie he straight up retires from being batman over how upset he is that shes gone.

 

[Z-Beat]

While he didn't say the themes out loud, I don't think I could ever call Tim Burton subtle.

 

[Scullibundo]

I mean Nolan batman spent all 3 movies moping around about rachel. Hell the third movie he straight up retires from being batman over how upset he is that shes gone.

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Okay. I'm just saying that those aren't the film's themes.

You are correct in that Nolan's writing is completely unsubtle, however.

 

[Imperial Bishop]

Burton 100%. He really showed how damaged, lonely and crazy Bruce really is. I appreciate Nolan's different take on Batman (though it's almost like Bruce in Begins is a totally different character than he is in TDK/R), Burton really showed that Bruce cannot exist without Batman, such as when he leaves Vicki in bed to go hang upside down looking out the window, pretending to be a bat. He showed the Bruce mask slipping off from time to time, which is something Nolan never really did.

Of course, there's room for all sorts of different takes on Batman, but the whole "I will only be Batman until the city doesn't need me, then I'll go be with Rachel" shit drove me nuts.

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Burton's deranged Batman is low-key entertaining in how sadistic he is.

 

[Bundy]

Burton did it best. Keaton was the best Batman.

 

[BlackFyre]

Burton's Batman was clearly deranged and thats why I prefer that version because lets face it Batman is just as loony as his villains.

I never thought Nolan's Batman was particularly scary or intimidating but Burton's? I would hate to face that dude in a dark alley.

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Burton Batman is nowhere near as scary or ruthless as Snyder's Batman.

 

[Loxley]

Burton's deranged Batman is low-key entertaining in how sadistic he is.

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While I mostly dislike Burton's take on the character, this is probably how I would actually expect a lunatic who dresses up like a bat to fight crime to behave.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

I'm pretty sure if Burton's Batman series has a theme it's "American consumer culture is a fucked up system that is regularly exploited by people so morally corrupt and vapid that they might as well be crazy cartoon supervillains"

 

[Donald Draper]

Imagine if people pretended to be as outraged about a Batman that murdered when it comes to Burton's Batman.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

Of course, there's room for all sorts of different takes on Batman, but the whole "I will only be Batman until the city doesn't need me, then I'll go be with Rachel" shit drove me nuts.

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I love the Nolan Batman trilogy but this shit really pissed me off too lol

 

[Khanimus]

Burton has little-to-no interest in Batman as a character. He's a static force and remains so.

 

[Travo]

I like how Burton Bruce didn't even know what a vichyssoise is

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It's SUPPOSED to be cold!

 

[Deleted member 60582]

Imagine if people pretended to be as outraged about a Batman that murdered when it comes to Burton's Batman.

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It is a rather conveniently ignored aspect of his Batman, isn't it?

 

[SugarNoodles]

Imagine if people pretended to be as outraged about a Batman that murdered when it comes to Burton's Batman.

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I just finished playing Arkham Knight today and the fact that Batman's entire identity is basically asserting that he is moral for refusing to kill serial killers who then proceed to murder all of this friends is pretty fucking hard not to laugh at. He's like the ultimate privileged enlightened centrist.

Are there any other superheroes that so heavily base their identity on being a cop and believing that the criminal justice system is great?

 

[bwahhhhh]

While he didn't say the themes out loud, I don't think I could ever call Tim Burton subtle.

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for sure, but some moments are really well executed. One of my favorite set of scenes in any Batman movie are in this clip from 0:00-1:45 (and especially while he's in the Batmobile from 1:05-1:45) where he just comes off as both extremely isolated and lonely, pulling at the thread that something about Cobblepot is off, even if he's not sure what. (it's also one of the few really detective-y scenes in any Bat-film) He's just stalking Penguin, and his Batman comes off lonely, and obsessive (but also correct with his instinct)



Helps that the music was great here too

 

[ZiggyPalffyLA]

Batman Returns is still the best Batman film.

 

[Arebours]

nolan only knows how to do signpost storytelling so yeah.

 

[Trigonometrize]

I don't think themes should be subtle more often than not. If a theme isn't obvious, it probably wasn't explored very much or even there at all. If I'm grasping something as basic as the theme of the story I was just told, I shouldn't have to stop and question whether or not I'm just mindlessly reading into something that wasn't there or not.

 

[Clefargle]

Batman Returns is still the best Batman film.

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If you're into slapstick

 

[Rydeen]

Batman Returns is still the best Batman film.

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I've been thinking about re-watching it again, and as Christmas time gets closer I just might.

 

[Soneji]

Batman(1989) is still the best live action Batman film. Keaton plays an amazing Bruce Wayne and a solidly dark Batman. Nicholson is an all time great as Joker as well, the kind that will kill you as he laughs and has fun. Still my favorite Joker scene within a Batman movie :

 

[lazygecko]

Batman(1989) is still the best live action Batman film. Keaton plays an amazing Bruce Wayne and a solidly dark Batman. Nicholson is an all time great as Joker as well, the kind that will kill you as he laughs and has fun. Still my favorite Joker scene within a Batman movie :

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I liked the spin on this film's Joker by giving him a more tangible origin by being this kind of art school student turned mobster and all of these elements coming together for his Joker persona. Gave some more interesting substance to the character's actions and motivations beyond just the standard nihilism.

 

[Dragoon]

He may be a bit more subtle, but Nolan's Batman is vastly superior. Bale truly shines as Bruce more than Batman in the trilogy.

 

[Deleted member 2625]

While he didn't say the themes out loud, I don't think I could ever call Tim Burton subtle.

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I honestly laughed when I read the thread title

please imagine a chorus of Danny Elfman choir children singing LALALALALA

 

[Dragoon]

Batman(1989) is still the best live action Batman film. Keaton plays an amazing Bruce Wayne and a solidly dark Batman. Nicholson is an all time great as Joker as well, the kind that will kill you as he laughs and has fun. Still my favorite Joker scene within a Batman movie :

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Nicholson literally plays Nicholson in a costume. Still to this day I don't understand how people hype his performance as something magical.. esp from a great like him that completely disappears in some of his roles unlike this one. It's also been a while, but doesn't he also fall in love for some reason?

 

[fontguy]

Batman Returns is a legitimately great film, and an even better Christmas film.

The final moment when Bruce, utterly defeated and disgraced, cradles a stray he found alone in the cold (at a time when most everyone enjoys the comfort of warm food and the company of loved ones), and somehow musters an ounce of charity in his heart thanks to Alfred (once again, the only family he has left), is as beautiful as it is heartbreaking.

 

[Deleted member 60582]

Man I wonder just how they would have approached Keaton's Bruce if they had proceeded to introduce Robin and other members of the Bat family. Him being exceedingly awkward and weird trying to relate to a teenager could have been great.

 

[ZiggyPalffyLA]

I've been thinking about re-watching it again, and as Christmas time gets closer I just might.

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It really is the perfect Christmas movie.

 

[rusty chrome]

Batman Returns is one of the best movies ever made for me, I've watched it so much growing up and even now it's still great. But I also love Nolan's movies and think Batman Begins was an incredible origins story, and obviously The Dark Knight is the GOAT comic book movie.

 

[Ars Arcanum]

Idk "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" was the coolest batman scene ever to me as a kid. And that's coming from someone who adored Batman Returns

 

[SupremeWu]

Nolan can be subtle (first watch of The Prestige for example) but Batman's not exactly a subtle character.

Nothing summed it up better than Morgan Freeman: 'You think your client, one of the richest, most powerful men in the world, spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp?'

Yeah, not much subtlety to be had here. Of course Batman's lonely, he basically hates being alive.

 

[UltraMagnus]

I have to admit I kinda miss the Burton Batman style where everything wasn't so damn serious and Batman's technology had to be military grade or something.

 

[Stone Cold]

The artistic vision in 89' Batman is something unmatched by any other comic book movie that came out before or since. Gotham was perfectly realized as a truly dangerous place to live

 

[Pau]

Man I wonder just how they would have approached Keaton's Bruce if they had proceeded to introduce Robin and other members of the Bat family. Him being exceedingly awkward and weird trying to relate to a teenager could have been great.

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Can't say it would have been my ideal portrayal, but at least they would have tried.

 

[THErest]

Subtle = having the dialogue spell it out?

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I find this incredibly ridiculously stupendously amazing that you would leverage this accusation at Burton when Nolan's trilogy exists. I am trying desperately to contain myself to a sensible chuckle, but the guffaws that escape my throat draw attention nonetheless.

 

[Aske]

Somewhat related: I have a question about Burton's Joker. The damage to his face from the shrapnel requires the reconstructive surgery that gives him a grin, and the chemicals dye his hair green and bleach his skin white. But what about his lips? I ask because there's one scene (I think the only scene in which he wears a top hat and tails) in which his lips look totally different to the way they normally do in the film: it's kind of Betty Boop style; like an exaggerated pout. I was never sure if it was a continuity error, or if his lips were only red because he wore lipstick. But IIRC, in the scene in which he wears flesh-coloured makeup which he then wipes off, I believe we see that his lips are red underneath.

One of you Batfans must know conclusively. This has bothered me since I saw the movie as a child.

 

[Officer Big Mac]

I find this incredibly ridiculously stupendously amazing that you would leverage this accusation at Burton when Nolan's trilogy exists. I am trying desperately to contain myself to a sensible chuckle, but the guffaws that escape my throat draw attention nonetheless.

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I didnt say anything about the Nolan films. I barely remember anything about them. My only point was that i dont feel that having a character flat out say his only family is his butler as a way to convey how isolated he is isnt subtle. Subtle would be letting the performance or camera show you these things.

 

[Tuorom]

It is not always wise to have themes be so subtle that most of the audience cannot grasp it. Not that either movie had themes that were hard to grasp but this nit picking generally comes up with people who do not like the film and it's annoying. Either that or "plot holes".

Nolan went for Fear, Chaos, and Despair/Hope. Being able to see that within the scenes is more effective than having to dig for it.

[In a scene where Bruce and Vicki are having dinner, Bruce says "Actually, Alfred IS my family." ]

This is the opposite of subtle. To nit pick an example.

 

[Deleted member 60582]

Somewhat related: I have a question about Burton's Joker. The damage to his face from the shrapnel requires the reconstructive surgery that gives him a grin, and the chemicals dye his hair green and bleach his skin white. But what about his lips? I ask because there's one scene (I think the only scene in which he wears a top hat and tails) in which his lips look totally different to the way they normally do in the film: it's kind of Betty Boop style; like an exaggerated pout. I was never sure if it was a continuity error, or if his lips were only red because he wore lipstick. But IIRC, in the scene in which he wears flesh-coloured makeup which he then wipes off, I believe we see that his lips are red underneath.

One of you Batfans must know conclusively. This has bothered me since I saw the movie as a child.

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When he shot the dude at city hall? That whole look was unique to that scene and never really explained. I always figured his red lips were lipstick and he just did them that way for that scene, but I have no answers about the rest.

 

[Aske]

When he shot the dude at city hall? That whole look was unique to that scene and never really explained. I always figured his red lips were lipstick and he just did them that way for that scene, but I have no answers about the rest.

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It's been a while since I last saw the film, but I remember assuming lipstick because of that scene, and then having the movie say "no, you are wrong, his lips are chemically dyed red like his normal look."