I watched Evangelion and a certain scene really ruined it for me

[Tavernade]

Someone (possibly on here when it came to Netflix?) summarized EVA and sexuality as "it's trying to be a deconstruction but none of the fans got it, got turned on instead, and spent so much money on sexy merch that staff threw their hands up and leaned in with more merch just like it."

There are a lot of scenes and reveals towards the end that really emphasize the deconstruction and the damage it does (let alone some super squicky reveals), but there's so much before that that leans into sexualization I didn't think it undid what came before, just re-contextualized it. I personally say I loved the show, but I'm also very happy I watched it as an adult instead of when I was a teen, because I feel like back then I would not have realized what was going on. I think a lot of it is problematic, but the rest is so good I can kind of ignore it. Just like how I can ignore how much Walt Disney hated unions and still enjoy Disney stuff.

 

[Deleted member 31092]

Some people really hate the fact that other have different opinions, wow.

 

[TheXbox]

Eva is a badly compromised work of genius. I fucking loathe how it sexualizes minors and how adult characters we are supposed to root for are either complicit in child sex abuse or actively commit it themselves. Can't blame anyone for turning out once that shit crops up. Makes it really hard to recommend without a mountain of disclaimers.

 

[PeterVenkman]

People might be more receptive to what you're saying if you weren't so condescending about it. Earlier you were suggesting that anyone who thinks that the scene in question is doing something effective/artistic/subversive just doesn't know what the male gaze is. Like, really? Get the fuck out of here with that.

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It really doesn't matter if people are receptive or not. The show is simply too beloved to dislike. Besides, quoting a basic definition of the male gaze when people in this thread are discounting how scenes are framed isn't the same as suggesting people don't know what the male gaze is.

 

[Gundam]

They aren't just kids, they're also teens. And their character development certainly shows that.
There's actually fanservice in Evangelion, but I wouldn't say this and other scenes are actually part of it. Most of the "fanservice" scenes that leave people uncomfortable are designed to do exactly that to an extent and to show that basically every character is broken and fucked up inside.

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My contention isn't about if this scene is fanservice or not (I still think a lot of it is, regardless of any intent of it being something beyond that.)

But rather Evangelion has a repeated pattern of sexualizing minors. Some of it is in the "but themes" category, and a lot of it is not. What the trend overall is that ultimately, there are just a lot of scenes where these characters that are minors are sexualized, often times, in my view, without those elements really adding much.

Was the apartment scene the best or only way to show Rei's character and establish what her relationship is with Shinji? I kind of doubt it

Do we need to see Asuka suit up in the stairwell? I doubt it

Or the scene in the outdoor bath? Probably not.

We definitely don't need to see Shinji's cum, nor do we really need to see an adult character offer an underaged character sex as a reward for doing something.
Or sell figures of these underage characters in objectifying poses and sculpts.

Exploring sexuality is certainly one thing, but for me, Evangelion so clearly goes beyond that.

I guess my question is could we seriously not have just made these characters young adults????

I'd still find the fanservice obnoxious and unwelcome, but it would be way less gross if they weren't teens.

 

[Rellodex]

It plays against the trope but the scene doesn't really land very well, at least this early in the series and in a modern context.

And for a franchise that so frequently sexualizes its female characters.

And especially when juxtaposed with the Eva merch and general fandom which has made it extremely clear that Rei is not "off limits."

There is increasingly sexual stuff in the series as it goes on, but a lot of it plays way better and for dramatic or artistic effect. There's some gross stuff, but the messages don't feel as mixed.

The first six-or-so episodes are the least interesting. Keep going if you're still remotely interested.

 

[Deleted member 8752]

When I was 19, this series seemed brilliant when I grabbed the platinum dvd collection + end of evangelion. Now, I feel like it's just self indulgent, overly-dense nonsense.

I'm not sure why they packed in so much density with such little exposition. It's just a pain to watch.

 

[Nightbird]

The problem isn't just that it's horny,

It's that they're kids.

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I mean, teenagers are horny as hell but I know exactly what you mean.

Honestly, I couldn't re-watch the show when it released on Netflix last year. It's so incredibly off-putting now that I'm so much older than the last time.

Maybe it's supposed to be off-putting but that doesn't mean I'll force myself to sit trough it.

I'll just look up scenes and music I liked on YouTube.

 

[nilbog]

You may have survived the masturbation scene OP. Congrats.

 

[dyelawn91]

I guess my question is could we seriously not have just made these characters young adults????

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But then it wouldn't have played to the audience it was intended to reach. The whole show is, more or less, the director trying to have a conversation with an assumed audience of male otaku, anyone else who tunes in is clearly a secondary concern. Otaku centric anime sexualizes minors, specifically underage girls -- it's unfortunately a feature and not a bug. If you're trying to talk to that audience through your work, you have to include that shit, or they're just going to tune out. It's gross, and it sucks, but the people Anno was trying to have a conversation with don't just expect that stuff, they actively want it, and they reject whatever you're presenting to them if it doesn't include it.

For whatever it's worth, I feel pretty strongly you could nuke most media targeted toward otaku from existence and the world would then be a better place, and I include Eva in that. The only part of Eva that is truly "genius" to me are some of the gonzo, head-fuck visual trips that the back half of End of Eva takes you on.

 

[Mesoian]

I'm talking about this scene in EP5:

So I'll expand a bit; Shinji comes to Rei's apartment basically uninvited, she gets out of the shower he slips and falls on top of her grabbing her boob. After that you see her getting dressed in a fan service sort of way.
It came out of nowhere and yikes, Idk how old these characters are but this is some creepy shit. I think I might drop this series. shame, some great animation there..

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If this was a big deal for you, you should just stop now. The highs of the series will not be able to eclipse the weird commentary that uses sexual acts to show how dire and deplorable the various situations of the show are.

 

[Rover]

The show has a very bizarre and regressive relationship with sex.

I think a lot of fans might defend Eva with "why can't you make a show about characters with a bizarre and regressive relationship to sex?" And the thing is, you totally can do that!

But that's really hard to claim about Eva when the show routinely sexualizes its characters in a pretty straight-forward way, and has had a line of very sexualized merchandise for decades.

You can't have it both ways. The show wants to tell you that Misato having sex with a guy is bad, but hey once you're done with that episode would you like to drop $200 on this statue of her in a bikini?

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

But that's really hard to claim about Eva when the show routinely sexualizes its characters in a pretty straight-forward way, and has had a line of very sexualized merchandise for decades.

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I remember visiting a combini in Osaka and there's just a bunch of EVA branded food on the shelf with the girls in their plug suits.

 

[Mesoian]

My contention isn't about if this scene is fanservice or not (I still think a lot of it is, regardless of any intent of it being something beyond that.)

But rather Evangelion has a repeated pattern of sexualizing minors. Some of it is in the "but themes" category, and a lot of it is not. What the trend overall is that ultimately, there are just a lot of scenes where these characters that are minors are sexualized, often times, in my view, without those elements really adding much.

Was the apartment scene the best or only way to show Rei's character and establish what her relationship is with Shinji? I kind of doubt it

Do we need to see Asuka suit up in the stairwell? I doubt it

Or the scene in the outdoor bath? Probably not.

We definitely don't need to see Shinji's cum, nor do we really need to see an adult character offer an underaged character sex as a reward for doing something.
Or sell figures of these underage characters in objectifying poses and sculpts.

Exploring sexuality is certainly one thing, but for me, Evangelion so clearly goes beyond that.

I guess my question is could we seriously not have just made these characters young adults????

I'd still find the fanservice obnoxious and unwelcome, but it would be way less gross if they weren't teens.

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IMO - reviling the show is part of it. A lot of the shots it takes to make you dislike characters are cheap and crass and there is a fair amount that's just pandering to male gaze paired with a few doses of good ole' anime pedophilia, but you're not supposed to feel good about any of the sexual encounters in the show or movies. The entire series feels extremely anti-intimacy, making tender moments or moments that would otherwise be seen as sexual comedy feel creepy, unnerving and wrong. But much like this season's Glepnir, if you're not into the allegory of assault placed on the setting of teenage angst and suffering, then Eva just isn't for you. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Gundam]

But then it wouldn't have played to the audience it was intended to reach. The whole show is, more or less, the director trying to have a conversation with an assumed audience of male otaku, anyone else who tunes in is clearly a secondary concern. Otaku centric anime sexualizes minors, specifically underage girls -- it's unfortunately a feature and not a bug. If you're trying to talk to that audience through your work, you have to include that shit, or they're just going to tune out. It's gross, and it sucks, but the people Anno was trying to have a conversation with don't just expect that stuff, they actively want it, and they reject whatever you're presenting to them if it doesn't include it.

For whatever it's worth, I feel pretty strongly you could nuke most media targeted toward otaku from existence and the world would then be a better place, and I include Eva in that. The only part of Eva that is truly "genius" to me are some of the gonzo, head-fuck visual trips that the back half of End of Eva takes you on.

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I get what you mean - I always think "Maybe if I saw this at a younger age I would like it more". But I just don't have that perspective.

 

[Orb]

Eva is a badly compromised work of genius. I fucking loathe how it sexualizes minors and how adult characters we are supposed to root for are either complicit in child sex abuse or actively commit it themselves.

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I'm genuinely amazed that anyone with even a basic level of media literacy can come way from Eva thinking that there is anyone in the show you're "supposed" to "root for."

But even if it were the case that we're supposed to unironically look at the NERV crew as the "good guys," the fact that they partake in bad behaviors doesn't mean the work is suggesting that those bad behaviors are okay. Portrayal of abuse, etc. in media isn't endorsement of that behavior.

 

[Mesoian]

I remember visiting a combini in Osaka and there's just a bunch of EVA branded food on the shelf with the girls in their plug suits.

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We went to the Eva teahouse when we were there a few years ago, the marketing doesn't even try to approach the themes of the show. Much like the Gundam Restaurant, it's just there to sell you shit, not make you think about why war is horrible, so they'll just have cute girls in latex try to sell you overpriced packaged goods.

Eva's marketing grasp in japan is huge. I went drinking in GoldenGai one night and slipped into a tiny bar that was out of the way. They were just playing jazz remixes of Eva songs while people smoked and drank whiskey. It was awesome but it showed me just how pervasive Eva is in that country, it's literally everywhere at all times.

 

[Deleted member 10629]

Eva is a badly compromised work of genius. I fucking loathe how it sexualizes minors and how adult characters we are supposed to root for are either complicit in child sex abuse or actively commit it themselves. Can't blame anyone for turning out once that shit crops up. Makes it really hard to recommend without a mountain of disclaimers.

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every adult in Eva is a fucking failure

 

[Sephiroth]

Wasn't this the episode Joss Whedon directed?

 

[Ruisu]

The show has a very bizarre and regressive relationship with sex.

I think a lot of fans might defend Eva with "why can't you make a show about characters with a bizarre and regressive relationship to sex?" And the thing is, you totally can do that!

But that's really hard to claim about Eva when the show routinely sexualizes its characters in a pretty straight-forward way, and has had a line of very sexualized merchandise for decades.

You can't have it both ways. The show wants to tell you that Misato having sex with a guy is bad, but hey once you're done with that episode would you like to drop $200 on this statue of her in a bikini?

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I fail to see how both can't coexist. There's irony baked into what Eva actually says and what it sells in a superficial level, but the same it's true of it's basic premise of Cool Action Mecha. Do you feel the same about that aspect? Is it impossible for the anime to criticize the pressure shinji is put into to fight as a child soldier in the Eva at the same time that it makes the battles cool as fuck? The contrast is part of why evangelion is so good. Yes I do understand that Misato is a terrible person that I would never want to get involved with in real life. Yes I do still want her bikini figurine.

This is like being bothered that the Doki Doki Literature Club fandom still has waifus from the girls. It is possible to both enjoy the superficial presentation and understand the critique the very thing using that presentation is doing.

 

[Capra]

The show has a very bizarre and regressive relationship with sex.

I think a lot of fans might defend Eva with "why can't you make a show about characters with a bizarre and regressive relationship to sex?" And the thing is, you totally can do that!

But that's really hard to claim about Eva when the show routinely sexualizes its characters in a pretty straight-forward way, and has had a line of very sexualized merchandise for decades.

You can't have it both ways. The show wants to tell you that Misato having sex with a guy is bad, but hey once you're done with that episode would you like to drop $200 on this statue of her in a bikini?

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I feel like there's a weird disconnect between the show and its merchandise. Like the show itself tries to have its cake and eat it too in a lot of places but it telegraphs it pretty hard when a scene is meant to come off more as creepy than legitimately titillating. Scenes like Shinji rejecting Misato in disgust when she tries to come onto him after Rei dies, Asuka berating Shinji for masturbating over her comatose body, etc. are clearly calling some portion of the fanbase out for that shit.

But then like decades after the show aired they're still selling figures of Asuka and Rei in bikinis to capitalize on those same fans. I don't know if you can blame the show for all the merchandising that occurred after it but it's definitely worth a pause.

 

[dyelawn91]

I get what you mean - I always think "Maybe if I saw this at a younger age I would like it more". But I just don't have that perspective.

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For sure. I don't think Eva has a lot to offer any well-adjusted adult.

 

[Deleted member 56306]

I fail to see how both can't coexist. There's irony baked into what Eva actually says and what it sells in a superficial level, but the same it's true of it's basic premise of Cool Action Mecha. Do you feel the same about that aspect? Is it impossible for the anime to criticize the pressure shinji is put into to fight as a child soldier in the Eva at the same time that it makes the battles cool as fuck? The contrast is part of why evangelion is so good. Yes I do understand that Misato is a terrible person that I would never want to get involved with in real life. Yes I do still want her bikini figurine.

This is like being bothered that the Doki Doki Literature Club fandom still has waifus from the girls. It is possible to both enjoy the superficial presentation and understand the critique the very thing using that presentation is doing.

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I think it's possible - but watching it years after it aired and seeing all the merchandise I think can have a person walk away with a different impression. After seeing the figures and stuff for years I finally watched most of it - and it wasn't what I expected at all. I thought it'd be much more conventional and not what it is... I also don't understand why people would want merchandise of it though, as that feels antithetical to the entire show - to the point where Irony doesn't really cover it. But I also haven't watched the movies and am unsure if I want to.

 

[TheXbox]

I'm genuinely amazed that anyone with even a basic level of media literacy can come way from Eva thinking that there is anyone in the show you're "supposed" to "root for."

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why do you have to be that way?

Let me put it differently: the show doesnt recognize child sex abuse when it occurs. Misato and her dumbass ex never reckon with their abuse like they reckon with every other flaw they possess. And let's call Misato, if nothing else, someone we are meant to empathize with. Hopefully that's generous enough to avert the typical knee-jerk response Eva fans usually level at critics.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

For sure. I don't think Eva has a lot to offer any well-adjusted adult.

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It's problematic for sure, but it is undeniably full of evocative and disturbing imagery, memorable music and themes. End of Eva in particular has some very nice mecha animation. More than anything its a very important anime landmark if you have an interest in animation.

 

[EVIL]

NGE def has the uncomfortable knob turned on a notch, it goes to places you don't want to look and its raw which I think it should be. You start of liking some characters but in the end everybody is clearly a piece of shit in their own way, with maybe the exception of pen pen. While its an uncomfortable show to watch, I def prefer it over the bland safe space friendly stuff that gets put out today.

 

[Mesoian]

This is like being bothered that the Doki Doki Literature Club fandom still has waifus from the girls. It is possible to both enjoy the superficial presentation and understand the critique the very thing using that presentation is doing.

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While true, people are under no obligation to treat such a work fairly. I can't fault anyone for taking a hard pass on Made In Abyss because it spends so much time revealing in the physical and sexual abuse of children who are supposed to be 10. Yes, there is a message in said scenes, no, I can't fault anyone for just turning that show off.

 

[Bossking]

Rambo was a movie about a neglected and abused Vietnam veteran snapping and killing police officers until he's imprisoned and realizes that prison life grants him much more security and stability than the cruel and uncaring nation that abandoned him. He had a Saturday morning cartoon and several toylines.

Don't judge the original work based on the merchandise that followed. Marketers didn't write and direct the damn show.

 

[Alice]

why do you have to be that way?

Let me put it differently: the show doesnt recognize child sex abuse when it occurs. Misato and her dumbass ex never reckon with their abuse like they reckon with every other flaw they possess. And let's call Misato, if nothing else, someone we are meant to empathize with. Hopefully that's generous enough to avert the typical knee-jerk response Eva fans usually level at critics.

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But it DOES deal with the abuse, and paints it in a rather bad light. I think it may be time for you to rewatch the instrumentality scenes from both the TV and End of Evangelion. Misato especially is painted in a very negative light for what she did.

 

[808s & Villainy]

why do you have to be that way?

Let me put it differently: the show doesnt recognize child sex abuse when it occurs. Misato and her dumbass ex never reckon with their abuse like they reckon with every other flaw they possess. And let's call Misato, if nothing else, someone we are meant to empathize with. Hopefully that's generous enough to avert the typical knee-jerk response Eva fans usually level at critics.

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The entire show is about recognizing and (mostly not) dealing with abuse. The irony is that Shinji, the character every calls pathetic and digs in on, is the only person who even tries to recognize and deal with his traumas.

Misato isn't suppose to be a sympathetic character. She's suppose to appear like one, and be the only person who genuinely "cares" about Shinji, until the series goes on, you see her backstory and realize what seems to be affection is just the only way she knows how to connect to people and that she sees him mostly as a tool like everyone else. Like others have stated, nothing more clearly emphasizes this than the scene in EoE when she kisses him as motivation, showing she still doesn't really understand him, or how to connect with him.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

LMAO


son, thats only episode 5


edit:

TBH, NGE handles its sexual themes better than most animes i've seen. There is a lot of off-putting uncomfortable moments but they seemingly do have intention and characterization behind them.

If you're still reading this thread OP sorry everyone is spoiling the series for you. lol. its a controversial series (and as a newcomer to the series like myself) know it will forever be a controversial topic of discussion.

 

[Deleted member 5745]

Ah, another "newbie watching Evangelion" thread.

 

[EnronERA]

To the folks uncomfortable with the sexualization of the two 14 year old girls that are just now watching this for the first time in 2020, be glad you weren't around for the show's height in the mid-late 90s. It was like 100x as bad with all of the merchandise and tie-ins.

 

[The Boat]

Rambo was a movie about a neglected and abused Vietnam veteran snapping and killing police officers until he's imprisoned and realizes that prison life grants him much more security and stability than the cruel and uncaring nation that abandoned him.

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No, Rambo was a movie about a neglected Vietnam veteran being abused by society and the police officers that arrest him for no reason, which leads him to snap in self defense and still avoid killing. Unless I'm massively misremembering the movie, there is nothing like him realizing that prison life grants him security or stability, he bails out asap.

 

[Deleted member 10629]

No, Rambo was a movie about a neglected Vietnam veteran being abused by society and the police officers that arrest him for no reason, which leads him to snap in self defense. Unless I'm massively misremembering the movie, there is nothing like him realizing that prison life grants him security or stability, he bails out asap.

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I think they mean the sequels :p Rambo dies in the novel.

 

[The Boat]

I think they mean the sequels :p Rambo dies in the novel.

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If he did, he would say Rambo 2. Well, Rambo: First Blood Part II... what a stupid fucking name. Also, the confrontation with cops is from the first movie. Anyway, super off-topic :P

 

[purseowner]

Some of the greatest works of fiction in history are full of fucked up people so not sure what that exactly has to do with the quality.

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Best post in the thread.

 

[Noodle]

I wish I could whole heartedly believe that, maybe with the most benefit of the doubt I think the intent was there for some of this but it's a real have your cake and eat it too situation with regards to execution. "it's fan service, but we know it's creepy, so instead of just having some girls to ogle, now you can ogle them but the situation is creepier than usual, cuz we know it is bad! but it sells figures!"

(fwiw, I have a genuine fondness for Eva, but it's a complicated show that I can't get behind 100%.)

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This is my read too. Especially with Anno's comments on the EoE choking scene and Mari's introduction.

 

[Ruisu]

I think it's possible - but watching it years after it aired and seeing all the merchandise I think can have a person walk away with a different impression. After seeing the figures and stuff for years I finally watched most of it - and it wasn't what I expected at all. I thought it'd be much more conventional and not what it is... I also don't understand why people would want merchandise of it though, as that feels antithetical to the entire show - to the point where Irony doesn't really cover it. But I also haven't watched the movies and am unsure if I want to.

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Oh I don't mean to say the merchandise is ironic. The dissonance is there, I said it's ironic that for the message the show has, the way it's sold for toys and all those products its almost opposite to it. But personally I think it can still coexist.

While true, people are under no obligation to treat such a work fairly. I can't fault anyone for taking a hard pass on Made In Abyss because it spends so much time revealing in the physical and sexual abuse of children who are supposed to be 10. Yes, there is a message in said scenes, no, I can't fault anyone for just turning that show off.

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True. Evangelion still is better off than fight club types at least. Most fans of Eva understand the message it's trying to convey and even agree with it, they just decided that they'll live with the contradiction of still liking what's being criticized.

 

[JPLC]

In regards to the merch uncomfortableness:

The merch (like all merch) exists because of capitalism. The show/films are insanely popular, so merch is made to capitalize off that popularity and make a profit (and sexualized items in the otaku space are very profitable). If Eva wasn't popular, you wouldn't have this disconnect between the work and the merch because the merch wouldn't exist (though obviously some contingent of the fanbase who missed the point of the show would still make sexualized fanworks/media).

I'm not going to fault Evangelion as a show/the films based on the unnecessary/gross merch. Yes, Eva the show/films still profits from Eva merch, but the fault is capitalism, not the show/films themselves.

 

[Dongs Macabre]

I thought the scene was successful as a deconstruction because of how incredibly uncomfortable it was.

But if Evangelion had anything to say about this sort of sexualization, the Rebuild movies certainly don't.

 

[Ruisu]

If Eva wasn't popular, you wouldn't have this disconnect between the work and the merch because the merch wouldn't exist (though obviously some contingent of the fanbase who missed the point of the show would still make sexualized fanworks/media).

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Making sexualized fanworks of something like evangelion has nothing to do with missing the point. Just because I still eat junk food doesn't mean I've missed the point of someone explaining to me how it's not healthy.

 

[Dark Knight]

I wish I could whole heartedly believe that, maybe with the most benefit of the doubt I think the intent was there for some of this but it's a real have your cake and eat it too situation with regards to execution. "it's fan service, but we know it's creepy, so instead of just having some girls to ogle, now you can ogle them but the situation is creepier than usual, cuz we know it is bad! but it sells figures!"

(fwiw, I have a genuine fondness for Eva, but it's a complicated show that I can't get behind 100%.)

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The whole show is about the psychosexual analysis of a disaffected and troubled teenage boy juxtaposed against the machinations and desires of humanity. I was always under the impression that these sorts of scenes are simply to add layers to Shinji's disturbed personality and the nature of the relationships of these characters. Same with the "fanservicey" scenes Shinji has with Asuka and Misato. They're all different in nature but seriously none of them strike me as scenes that perverts would be high-fiving each other or getting excited over.

I first saw Evangelion as a thirteen year old boy and I don't remember getting aroused a single time over this shit lol

 

[Gustaf]

No, Rambo was a movie about a neglected Vietnam veteran being abused by society and the police officers that arrest him for no reason, which leads him to snap in self defense and still avoid killing. Unless I'm massively misremembering the movie, there is nothing like him realizing that prison life grants him security or stability, he bails out asap.

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and how does that changes anything?

marketing deparment still made Rambo an ACTION HERO

 

[Deepwater]

Watch RahXephon, all of the "muh themes" with none of the squick

 

[JPLC]

Making sexualized fanworks of something like evangelion has nothing to do with missing the point. Just because I still eat junk food doesn't mean I've missed the point of someone explaining to me how it's not healthy.

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While I generally agree with what you're saying in principle, I think specifically for a work like Eva, I'd have to disagree. I find it similar to what's being mentioned in the thread about Rambo: the original work is very much saying "this man should not be fighting, we shouldn't glorify this" while all the ancillary merch is saying "action hero fuck yeah".

 

[kvetcha]

I'm genuinely amazed that anyone with even a basic level of media literacy can come way from Eva thinking that there is anyone in the show you're "supposed" to "root for."

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so much this

 

[Ruisu]

While I generally agree with what you're saying in principle, I think specifically for a work like Eva, I'd have to disagree. I find it similar to what's being mentioned in the thread about Rambo: the original work is very much saying "this man should not be fighting, we shouldn't glorify this" while all the ancillary merch is saying "action hero fuck yeah".

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Well I am approaching this more from the perspective of the individuals who consume the media or make fanworks rather than from the viewpoint of corporate suits who just want to slap a popular skin onto anything they can sell. That's why I singled out that part of your post.

 

[Rover]

I fail to see how both can't coexist. There's irony baked into what Eva actually says and what it sells in a superficial level, but the same it's true of it's basic premise of Cool Action Mecha. Do you feel the same about that aspect? Is it impossible for the anime to criticize the pressure shinji is put into to fight as a child soldier in the Eva at the same time that it makes the battles cool as fuck? The contrast is part of why evangelion is so good. Yes I do understand that Misato is a terrible person that I would never want to get involved with in real life. Yes I do still want her bikini figurine.

This is like being bothered that the Doki Doki Literature Club fandom still has waifus from the girls. It is possible to both enjoy the superficial presentation and understand the critique the very thing using that presentation is doing.

Click to shrink...

Let me first say that I think the Cool Action Mecha stuff is the show's strongest point (and why I said earlier in the thread, that the show is not really a deconstruction, but rather a pretty effective construction of its genre - when it sticks to it).

With that said, the show is able to navigate the disconnect between "Shinji get in the robot" and all the cool action scenes, because ultimately these two things are not in disagreement about the action being dangerous and strange and harmful to perform. Nevertheless, the show resolves this tension because they do win battles, they do survive the danger of combat. And while the journey gets more abstract as it builds towards its climax, the show never undoes the buildup of these battles as part of the plot. The danger and the anguish about being an Eva pilot is pretty constant.

On the other hand, the show's sexual themes are a mess, and easily its worst aspect. Starting with the sexualization of minors in the show, the grooming of a minor by an adult (which is only sort of played as bad?), and then the really bonkers slut-shaming plotline the show wants to hammer you with about Misato being dirty for having...regular consensual sex with a guy? The show seems bent on a worldview where a good girl is demure and 'pure', Rei being the ultimate expression of this, but they are constantly teasing that you'll get to see something "next time".

It never reconciles these angry feelings about girls and sex, and this is before we even consider the any of the merch. A lot of people consider the hospital scene in the movie with Asuka to be the conclusive "big fuck you to the fans who want to see fan service", but that's ignoring how the show was never ever above the fan service to begin with. How could the takeaway be that the creators had a "fuck you" in mind when they had fan service in the show and they constantly teased more fan service?

 

[Principate]

To the folks uncomfortable with the sexualization of the two 14 year old girls that are just now watching this for the first time in 2020, be glad you weren't around for the show's height in the mid-late 90s. It was like 100x as bad with all of the merchandise and tie-ins.

Click to shrink...

It's not the sexualization of 14 years got any better. In fact it got far worse and you can partly trace that back to the popularity of he show.