There was barely any discernible difference between using a sword and a spear. Slight change in button press timing, slight change in range, that was it. It was hardly adapting when switching between sword and spear.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
I want to talk about how genius the weapon breakability in Breath of the Wild is...
- Thread starter FernandoRocker
- Start date
There was barely any discernible difference between using a sword and a spear. Slight change in button press timing, slight change in range, that was it. It was hardly adapting when switching between sword and spear.
That feeling of the weapon breaking, from the visual and sound effect, to it sending an enemy twirling in the air, is alone why it's a good thing in BOTW.
Not to mention it makes fighting feels like a fun scrap. Throwing a near broken club in an enemy's face to stun him and then making a mad dash to a stick that's on the floor and finishing him off with it is very exhilarating!
Not to mention it makes fighting feels like a fun scrap. Throwing a near broken club in an enemy's face to stun him and then making a mad dash to a stick that's on the floor and finishing him off with it is very exhilarating!
It simply doesn't work
Variety is cool and all, but it's usually happens to fall behind favoritism
The Moment you find your preferred weapon, all of the variety presented in the game loses its value and player only goes after the better kind of his favorite gear
Dark Souls games prove this really well. but it works in Dark Souls because of its linearity and scripted Item Droppings.
in BotW if you try to approach the Gears with favoritism, The Game makes your work 10 times harder to maintain your favorite kind of gear and make you question your ideals to finally just give up on the Damn Cool Scythe you were using for a while and just try the Stone Crusher.
It puts a very sour itch on player's mind and memory, but in action it just make the Combat a lot more fluids, a layer of misfortune that doesn't break your game or giving the Enemy any advantage, It's only there to make your preferred combat methods goes to vain and making you try again for a solution
It's Genius at the end, I don't think combat in BotW is in anyway the most open-minded and Clever Combat systems out there, far from it, but by blocking favoritism "Brutally" it force you try the other ways of fighting. Other games give you more variety, but don't give you any reason to try the them all.
====
all said and done, the system has many ways to improve and be better.
showing the Durability in some form
giving some hard but possible way to maintain the weapon's durability to make the favoritism method possible, but very hard and unforgiving
Give some types of weapon a complete advantage in this regard to make "weak but durable" builds possible
at the same type make some gears extremely strong but fragile to make the opposite builds possible too
and yeah, more crazy variety in weapons and their movesets make the Breakability system more valuable
Wish there was a fourth voting option for "Indifference". I think it's a flaw despite it being part of their goal with emergent gameplay (weather, physics, etc). And while I think that feature is a failure taken by itself, it didn't mar the game in anyway for me.
It's not "genius" - again it's just a design choice that you either like or dislike. Many people would prefer less fragile weapons that you can continue using. Some of these people will decide to use one or a few weapons, others will try out many more. It would be "genius" if the goal of games with multiple weapons was solely to get people to use as many as possible, but I don't think that's objectively better than providing a variety of weapons and allowing people to choose some number they enjoy, even if it's one. This won't work with every game but broadly speaking I'd much prefer differences in movesets and stats and etc. along with a variety of enemies that pushes me to use different weapons rather than forcing me to use different weapons because I can't keep using one.
I didn't mind it. Made finding good weapons actually interesting and made it so you didn't end with a gazillion useless weapons and armor (looking at you Bethesda). I would rather they did a really tight upgrade system though. Make weapons upgradeable (and never breakable), but make the upgrades quite expensive so you don't run out of incentive to explore for mats halfway through the game.
I didn't mind it, it added some tension for me since weapons didn't last long at all and it got me using any old shit I could find. Weapons could have lasted a little longer but it did not in any way ruin my time with the game.
The weapon-breaking mechanic is literally why i stopped playing; just couldnt get into it or feel attached to anything. Shame really.
Feels like there's a thread every week on this topic now. Certainly a diverse range of opinions on the matter :p
But for me, personally, I've warmed up to the concept. Wasn't keen on it in the initial E3 reveal. Spending more time with it I can see why they went down this approach.
I just had split my itinerary 50:50 between the stronger, higher durability weapons and weaker, more disposable stuff like leaves and sticks (Which were fun to use in enemy camps with explosives).
Sometimes I changed up my approach by using bombs, stasis and magnisis. And even more so when I got each of the Champion's unique abilities (Urbosa's Fury...). To the game's credit, the enemy AI made the encounters all the more amusing.
I think they could work on it a bit more (maybe obtain weaker, permanent ones in dungeons which could be upgraded with materials found in hyrule - like in AC: New Horizons). Keeps both parties happy. Please fix up the inventory screen though.
Tl;dr I think the game is more fun with it. Could be worked on more for the sequel. ;)
But for me, personally, I've warmed up to the concept. Wasn't keen on it in the initial E3 reveal. Spending more time with it I can see why they went down this approach.
I just had split my itinerary 50:50 between the stronger, higher durability weapons and weaker, more disposable stuff like leaves and sticks (Which were fun to use in enemy camps with explosives).
Sometimes I changed up my approach by using bombs, stasis and magnisis. And even more so when I got each of the Champion's unique abilities (Urbosa's Fury...). To the game's credit, the enemy AI made the encounters all the more amusing.
I think they could work on it a bit more (maybe obtain weaker, permanent ones in dungeons which could be upgraded with materials found in hyrule - like in AC: New Horizons). Keeps both parties happy. Please fix up the inventory screen though.
Tl;dr I think the game is more fun with it. Could be worked on more for the sequel. ;)
Last edited:
Very fragile weapons just makes me spam bombs against easy enemies and avoid unnecessary fights rather than chip away at my arsenal of good weapons. I'm almost always using the shittiest weapon that I have against easy enemies to also preserve better weapons for worthy opponents. When my shitty weapon breaks, I pick up the next shitty weapon and continue to do relatively terrible damage and not feel much stronger than I was at the start of the game. In my opinion, the weapon durability system just makes combat grindy and undesirable, which is ironic for a series whose gameplay mostly revolved around combat. I really hope that they dispose of this system and return to what most good action games do: design enemies that have advantages and disadvantages against certain weapons which would promote the same diversity of weapons but allow you to freely use your good ones and consistently feel stronger as you progress through the game.
It is a genius mechanic, but not for the reasons in the OP. It continues to go over most players heads. Copy paste from yesterday:
Weapon durability was such an elegant solution to the problem of balancing the difficulty of encounters across an open world, that the vast majority of players don't realise that's why it exists.
If weapons didn't break, the game would have been rightly criticized for many of the enemy encounters becoming trivial once you found a powerful weapon.
If you could go somewhere to repair weapons, then you would have exactly the same problem, with the added annoyance of having to travel back and forth to a blacksmith every half hour.
The system is absolutely integral to the basic premise of being able to go anywhere at anytime, which is the core of BotWs design.
All the other open world games I've played pretend that you are free to go where you want, but actually require you to do things in a restricted order due to the difficulty of enemy encounters. If you go somewhere sooner than you're supposed to, you either die, or force your way through a big difficulty spike. If you go somewhere later than you are supposed to, enemy encounters will present so little difficulty they are pointless. It's like developers thought that it would be cool explore a large open world, without recognizing that game mechanics designed for linear adventures would have to be changed. This problem is usually mitigated (but never solved) in a few ways:
1- Enemy difficulty scales with character level.
2- Enemy difficulty scales with distance from character start position.
3- Enemy difficulty scales with story progress, often this only applies to specific enemy encounters.
See if you can spot which crutch your next open world game is leaning on, and whether you really can go anywhere, anytime, whilst still having a balanced series of encounters.
Weapon durability was such an elegant solution to the problem of balancing the difficulty of encounters across an open world, that the vast majority of players don't realise that's why it exists.
If weapons didn't break, the game would have been rightly criticized for many of the enemy encounters becoming trivial once you found a powerful weapon.
If you could go somewhere to repair weapons, then you would have exactly the same problem, with the added annoyance of having to travel back and forth to a blacksmith every half hour.
The system is absolutely integral to the basic premise of being able to go anywhere at anytime, which is the core of BotWs design.
All the other open world games I've played pretend that you are free to go where you want, but actually require you to do things in a restricted order due to the difficulty of enemy encounters. If you go somewhere sooner than you're supposed to, you either die, or force your way through a big difficulty spike. If you go somewhere later than you are supposed to, enemy encounters will present so little difficulty they are pointless. It's like developers thought that it would be cool explore a large open world, without recognizing that game mechanics designed for linear adventures would have to be changed. This problem is usually mitigated (but never solved) in a few ways:
1- Enemy difficulty scales with character level.
2- Enemy difficulty scales with distance from character start position.
3- Enemy difficulty scales with story progress, often this only applies to specific enemy encounters.
See if you can spot which crutch your next open world game is leaning on, and whether you really can go anywhere, anytime, whilst still having a balanced series of encounters.
Same. Every time I want to continue I remember that shit and lose any interest.
It added nothing to the game other than having to switch back and forth to the menu all the time. In fact, combined with the fact that the combat isn't terribly interesting in the first place, it made me try to avoid combat all together whenever possible. It was just a hassle with no reward.
Rather than only having to switch weapon because the one your using is about to break, how about wanting to switch to a different weapon because its more effective or fun to use against a certain type of enemy? Being forced to cycle through a dozen weapons doesn't make things more interesting for me if they're all pretty much functionally identical.
There are less shit ways of making a player want to change weapon than just taking away the current one.
Rather than only having to switch weapon because the one your using is about to break, how about wanting to switch to a different weapon because its more effective or fun to use against a certain type of enemy? Being forced to cycle through a dozen weapons doesn't make things more interesting for me if they're all pretty much functionally identical.
There are less shit ways of making a player want to change weapon than just taking away the current one.
In addition to what Josh said above, it's thematically consistent with the rest of the game too - best case scenario these weapons have been sat around for a hundred years in a chest, more commonly they've been in the hands of monsters since they were taken from their Hyrulean owners. There are no blacksmiths knocking out enchanted weapons and none with the knowledge of how to maintain or repair such weapons because the inhabitants of the world of BotW are largely dead.
I think too many people in this thread are looking at the mechanic of durability as a strictly binary thing (i.e. either weapons break, or they don't) which is pretty narrow minded.
I would have much preferred something along the lines of Dark Souls weapon system in BOTW, because it's a game that allows you to find and pick the weapon you like the best, and stick with it and upgrade it to suit your needs.
Games like Assassin's Creed Origin / Odyssey are another way weapons could have been handled, with randomized stats and bonuses.
The way BOTW handles weapons have in my mind made them completely disposable and inconvenience rather than something I enjoy using or finding.
- I end up trying to avoid combat so that I don't waste my good weapons on easy enemies.
- When combat is unavoidable it either ends up taking forever since I'm using the worst weapons I have, or I'm ending up with worse weapons than I came in with.
- If I have too many weapons, every other chest I try to open will waste my time by telling me I don't have anymore room.
- I have to keep a wide variety of weapons I can't use for normal fights for different situations (stuff for breaking rocks, fire and ice weapons for environmental support) limiting my inventory space even further.
It's simply not fun to deal with BOTW's weapon system. Had it been only some weapons (i.e. powerful, but brittle weapons like the guardian weapons) then it would have been fine, but every weapon pretty much feels like it's made of glass.
I would have much preferred something along the lines of Dark Souls weapon system in BOTW, because it's a game that allows you to find and pick the weapon you like the best, and stick with it and upgrade it to suit your needs.
Games like Assassin's Creed Origin / Odyssey are another way weapons could have been handled, with randomized stats and bonuses.
The way BOTW handles weapons have in my mind made them completely disposable and inconvenience rather than something I enjoy using or finding.
- I end up trying to avoid combat so that I don't waste my good weapons on easy enemies.
- When combat is unavoidable it either ends up taking forever since I'm using the worst weapons I have, or I'm ending up with worse weapons than I came in with.
- If I have too many weapons, every other chest I try to open will waste my time by telling me I don't have anymore room.
- I have to keep a wide variety of weapons I can't use for normal fights for different situations (stuff for breaking rocks, fire and ice weapons for environmental support) limiting my inventory space even further.
It's simply not fun to deal with BOTW's weapon system. Had it been only some weapons (i.e. powerful, but brittle weapons like the guardian weapons) then it would have been fine, but every weapon pretty much feels like it's made of glass.
bingo.
This is really what it boils down to. The whole "the game would break without the weapon durability" argument is crap. How about design the combat and enemies so that it *encourages* you to try new weapons, and not because you're afraid your sword is about to snap like it's made of rotten wood? This enemy is weak to fire, use a fire sword. This enemy is weak to cold, use an ice sword. This enemy is fought in the water and takes extra damage from electricity (maybe this applies to all enemies in rain!). This enemy is slow and heavily armored, your claymore would be great for smashing thru that. This enemy is quick and agile, better whip out a short sword/dagger/something quick. Etc, etc, etc.
The weapon durability sucked all the fun out of the game for me, and I fucking love Zelda as a franchise. I hope the sequel has a more refined method.
Going to enjoy the shock of horror from people when the system is obviously built on for the sequel rather than scrapped.
What it did mean is that finding new weapons never felt particualrly interesting when you know they'll just break after a few hits anyway. I didn't really care though, there wasn't exactly a shortage of them,
Why so many BotW threads in the last few days, has there been something announced about the sequel?
Why so many BotW threads in the last few days, has there been something announced about the sequel?
That's how the game already works, more or less. But you're not forced to exploit such weaknesses to beat enemies.
well, in the scenario I typed up, you wouldn't be forced to either. But it would make the fights significantly easier/more survivable. Which would be the incentive to doing it. Without worrying about your shit breaking because you hit a slime one too many times.
The combat itself is so lame that it's really hard for me to make a judgement about this, even years later. I can't help but think a lot of the hate is naive because feeling so powerless is bound to frustrate the player, whether it's design is for the better or not. However its impact is so very fundamental to the game, it's hard for me to grasp how the game could be different. Seems like 20 years from now this will still be one of the most contentious design decisions ever.
Yeah the durability system is one if the core mechanics that make BotW so brilliant.
People think of it too much in traditional terms of RPGs where you're supposed to grow attached to every new weapon.
Weapons in BotW are essentially ammunition. Disposable. You are supposed to use them, and you will always find new ones, usually at a much higher rate than you break old ones which leads to a net improvement of your arsenal with each combat scenario.
Instead of traditional systems where 90% of loot is useless until you find that one weapon that you'll use for the next 10 hours, in BotW the gain is more steady, you use/break/throw out your worst weapons and add in better ones constantly.The growth in strength is more related to the way the bottom end of your inventory keeps improving.
But people who see only their one or two best weapons as their power level will hate if those weapons break.
I hope Nintendo sticks with this and don't listen to vocal complaints.
People think of it too much in traditional terms of RPGs where you're supposed to grow attached to every new weapon.
Weapons in BotW are essentially ammunition. Disposable. You are supposed to use them, and you will always find new ones, usually at a much higher rate than you break old ones which leads to a net improvement of your arsenal with each combat scenario.
Instead of traditional systems where 90% of loot is useless until you find that one weapon that you'll use for the next 10 hours, in BotW the gain is more steady, you use/break/throw out your worst weapons and add in better ones constantly.The growth in strength is more related to the way the bottom end of your inventory keeps improving.
But people who see only their one or two best weapons as their power level will hate if those weapons break.
I hope Nintendo sticks with this and don't listen to vocal complaints.
I expected some elaborate explanation on why it's so genius but the OP didn't make any effort at all. The comparisons posted are also poorly thought out.
In my opinion the system might not be bad per se but it's poorly implemented. You have some enemy health pools that can break five or more weapons in a single fight and in order for you to switch weapons there's a very underdeveloped weapon select feature that makes you scroll a horizontal bar that only shows a handful of weapons at a time. So what's happening is that the time freezes in the fight for several times due to forced item management and it just hurts the pace of it all and it often feels like you are just throwing trash at the enemy that extends the fight instead of making it exciting.
In my opinion the system might not be bad per se but it's poorly implemented. You have some enemy health pools that can break five or more weapons in a single fight and in order for you to switch weapons there's a very underdeveloped weapon select feature that makes you scroll a horizontal bar that only shows a handful of weapons at a time. So what's happening is that the time freezes in the fight for several times due to forced item management and it just hurts the pace of it all and it often feels like you are just throwing trash at the enemy that extends the fight instead of making it exciting.
Last edited:
Poll is way too polarising as well - I didn't outright hate the system, I got along okay with it in the end, but I certainly didn't think it was great or just needed a repair/crafting system. Almost like the OP is trying to set people against each other.
This isn't a great analogy: shotguns and SMGs don't blow apart when the chamber's empty. I'm not even sure there is a sensible analogy. Most games have consumable offensive items as a supplementary to more reliable main ones. I'm sure there is one, but I can't think of another system where everything is consumable and disposable - certainly not in 100 hour adventure game. Survival games are the closest, I suppose.
Last edited:
But in many shooters, weapons are "disposable" in the sense that you can't carry an infinite number of them and ammo for each weapon is limited so you need to make choices. Halo is one such game where the game is clearly forcing you to make choices like "do I keep this shotgun around hoping to find more ammo or do I pick up the plasma rifle that is right here".
Another extension of the analogy is that weapons aren't unique in BotW. Just like you'll eventually find a new shotgun in Halo, you will always find a new Flame Sword or Ice Spear in BotW. I guess the right way of thinking is that the durability = ammunition, but either way the point is the system is forcing you to think, adapt and use all your tools.
I really liked the game but fighting lynels or the combat shrines and burning through like five weapons in a single encounter is just silly. The wagons could have used a little bit more durability imo.
Poll options are silly
Poll options are silly
Or there's the Xenoblade games, especially X, where every area has a wide variety of encounters. Not saying these games are perfect but maybe the closest I've actually seen. Definitely better than BOTW's equipment being made of glass and tissue paper
Having to go into a menu to switch weapons mid-fight just made it irritating. I don't mind weapons breaking but could they have a bit more durability though? Why I gotta bring a whole arsenal to fight a Lynel?
I don't actually think the OP's defense of the system is very good, but what I liked about it and every other system in BOTW is how it kept you in touch with your environment. Different equipment didn't just become relegated in usefulness just cause of low stats, you can still throw a crappy spear in the face of a goblin to get away, set a bunch of grass on fire and leap up in the draft and glide away. It incentivises tactics like disarming your enemies with bombs and grabbing their weapons, which allows you to see their different AI behaviours when you do that (like bigger enemies throwing smaller ones at you). It gives a reason to play with the weird physics systems in the game. You would not get this kind of mileage out of BOTW's systems if you could stack up on more powerful equipment and steamroll everything, so I think it's an important part of the clockwork of the game.
I liken it most of all to Dead Rising, moreso than a shooting game.
I liken it most of all to Dead Rising, moreso than a shooting game.
I mean, I hear you, but in Halo 1 I held onto that base pistol always, because it was such a brilliant weapon and I knew there'd always be more ammo. That weapon was special because ammo was limited and you couldn't pick it up anywhere else in the game (I don't think I was alone in that). In BotW, I just kind of hoarded high-level weapons, occasionally blew them off and didn't care that much. Does the game want me to have a complete indifference to the items it hides in chests - seems kind of at odds with the principle of a chest, but if that was their aim they fairly succeeded.
In truth, I didn't hate the mechanic, but I think enough people were either turned off or not especially wowed by it for even the most ardent fan to admit that - all best intentions acknowledged - it wasn't exactly a stroke of genius.
I disagree. It is not genius. It is a game design desicion, but i dont think it's very well implemented and is more annoying than useful. But opinions and all of that. I didn't really change the combat very much regardless of the weapon, in fact since some times wouldn't even last a full combat, it wasn't worth trying to learn its particularities and just stick with the basics.
I like it but I definitely want a way to repair weapons in the sequel. Let me break down weapons and ores and take them to a forge in town. Fuck it, let us use this system to make the weapons stronger or add new properties to them as well.
It ruined the game for me. I sold my Switch two weeks after launch with the game and pro controller for a profit and I still haven't picked one up again.
I hope for the sake of others it's not in sequel.
I hope for the sake of others it's not in sequel.
So decisive.
I loved it 🤷🏻♂️
I loved it 🤷🏻♂️
Why are you getting emotionally attached to weapons?
It's a single example, one of a few others. Like the sword and axe aren't used in the same way for example because the timing is completely different for e.g.
But when you run out of ammunition (BotW: durability runs out) the weapon is rendered completely useless (BotW: broken) and can't be used again until you find more ammunition (BotW: find another weapon). It looks different, but the structure is functionally the same.
Last edited:
Vs using an actual wood axe you've been holding on to, which chops then down in fewer hits and lasts much longer at cutting trees.
This is why axes exist (and also why tools to break ore exist).
