It is not like Woolsey didn't add any pop culture reference.
Or how they decided to rename some bosses in Chrono Trigger Flea, Ozzie, and Slash.
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I want to play Lunar, but Working Designs translations keep stopping me.
- Thread starter Valcrist
- Start date
Or how they decided to rename some bosses in Chrono Trigger Flea, Ozzie, and Slash.
Anyhow, to answer the thread title: Play the PSX versions of Lunar games.
The objectionable parts of the script have been greatly dialed down. There are no weird new gameplay additions to the JP version. There is no significant difficulty increase. The games have the upsides of the WD translations without the downsides, but from an era where companies like Atlus really started to start doing good work on their localizations so WD stands out less.
I'm kind of surprised that Ted Woolsey's translations get pointed as at standouts of the 16-bit era and not Sega's work on their main first-party RPGs. Shinging Force 1, 2, CD, and PS4 are all really good localizations, and on the short list for overall best. Lots of mediocre ones on the Genesis like Sorcerer's Kingdom, Warsong, Sword of Vermillon, etc.
The objectionable parts of the script have been greatly dialed down. There are no weird new gameplay additions to the JP version. There is no significant difficulty increase. The games have the upsides of the WD translations without the downsides, but from an era where companies like Atlus really started to start doing good work on their localizations so WD stands out less.
I'm kind of surprised that Ted Woolsey's translations get pointed as at standouts of the 16-bit era and not Sega's work on their main first-party RPGs. Shinging Force 1, 2, CD, and PS4 are all really good localizations, and on the short list for overall best. Lots of mediocre ones on the Genesis like Sorcerer's Kingdom, Warsong, Sword of Vermillon, etc.
I'm actually playing through Shining in the Darkness and SF1 again and, yeah, I'm kind of surprised at how well they are handled so far.
I do recall PS4 being very competent at the time (which is also hilarious to think that Vic was previously salty about Sega "stealing" the rights to localize it from him)
By now you're beating it into everyone's heads even more egregiously than the worst impulses of a WD translation here.
Hahahah, this got me. Yeah BoF2 was bad but after a recent playthrough I must say, it was not incomprehensible. It mostly made sense. Except for the fucking armor names. Oh what's this RangerCL do? Oh goodness I've found a JahAR, wonder if it's better than that SacredSH...
OP
OP
Here's some of the ones I saw with just like maybe an hour of playtime that were kinda cringy or bad pop culture references included.
IMO none of the NPC pop culture references have any dialogue. They're a waste of a button press to even see what they're saying.
To be clear, I don't even think pop culture references are even inherently bad. It's just a matter of what they are and how they are implemented into the game. There's a reasonable difference between somebody quoting Beavis & Butthead and somebody directly making a Bill Clinton joke that calls him out by name.
I'd also say that Slash, Flea, and Ozzy are acceptable changes when their Japanese names are what they are
What a way to cherry pick things I've said. I have already agreed that the pop culture references is a stain on otherwise great localizations and AGAIN because you don't seem to want to actually read, I have condemned the shit in Albert Odyssey, it's indefensible.
The point, as it seems to fly over your head, is that holding Woolsey as some kind of beacon of great translations against WD is dumb because Woolsey wasn't perfect either. He took a ton of liberty with his translations, he changed stuff that didn't need to be changed and while I don't think his work is bad, far from it, I'm not gonna sit there and act like his work is inherently better when it isn't.
I think the sentiment is referencing Nintendo originally not localizing it and only doing it after intense fan pressure...but I still don't really see that as being something related to WD.
I'm not saying Woolsey is perfect. I'm saying he's better to illustrate that Working Designs wasn't some lone beacon of quality, since not only weren't they not alone, they weren't even exceptional.
I feel slightly hypocritical adoring the Ghost Stories anime dub, but absolutely despising the Working Designs localizations. Only slightly, since the games WD brought over actually deserved to have proper localizations instead of ducttaped-together ego projects.
Couldn't stand the writing of Summon Night 6 either, to the point that I have no desire to play it.
Couldn't stand the writing of Summon Night 6 either, to the point that I have no desire to play it.
Humor is a question of taste but if you think renaming Mayonnaise, Soy Sauce and Vinnegar to Ozzie, Flea and Slash and calling them "tone-deaf evil fiends" isn't a better joke than any of the WD references posted, your taste is suspect. Plus that in no way breaks immersion or interferes with the tone of the game. It's just objectively better localization.
What a weird comment coming from somebody with the username My Blue Heaven.
it's a gene austin song later covered by fats domino smart guy. nice gotcha attempt though. if you want to talk early rock and jazz that's for another thread.
To be fair, those are better names than the original Soy Sauce, Vinegar and Mayonnaise.
I disagree the tootsie pop one is actually funnyHere's some of the ones I saw with just like maybe an hour of playtime that were kinda cringy or bad pop culture references included.
IMO none of the NPC pop culture references have any dialogue. They're a waste of a button press to even see what they're saying.
better why, exactly? i never cared for WD and their reddit-esque humour before reddit was a thing but i'm seeing a lot of double standards in this thread
"WD and their pop references were horrible! not like my ted woolsey"
"ted did them too"
"but when ted did them it was ok. and funny. and better than the originals. everything else though? trash"
we even had people complaining about AA localization in this same thread, which is probably one of the best localization efforts.... ever due to how much of an herculean task it is to make it even coherent for english speakers, let alone fun
Not saying they are accurate, obviously they aren't.
But seriously, does it even warrant a discussion? You'd much rather the guy below be called Soy Sauce?
There's some really good discussion in here on both sides. I played through my share of Working Designs games over 10 years ago (including the Lunar games) so my personal memories are pretty fuzzy but the translations didn't keep me from enjoying the stories or finishing the games. That said, as shown through the examples in this thread, there certainly were a lot of changes that gave a different flavor to the dialogue as a whole and I'd be curious how I'd feel about them now. On one hand, I really do think WD's translations reflect the time they were created (and their audience) and are more interesting because of that but, on the other, some of them really take things a little too far.
Still, all that said, without Working Designs the English speaking gaming community would have missed out on some fantastic Japanese games that really had no other chance in the market of the late 90s/early 00s. We're very privileged now to have so access to so many great games and I think we sometimes forget how things were 20-30 years ago.
The bottom line for me is that issues like these have encouraged me to learn Japanese and engage with the source material to decide for myself whether a game has a good translation or not. As many others have pointed out, translations (more specifically localizations) have gotten much better on average, but there are still many personal choices and quirks that go into the English translated games we play today. It's really impossible to fully gauge not only the accuracy of a translation but the overall effect it has on the game's experience unless you're able to critically approach the differences yourself.
Still, all that said, without Working Designs the English speaking gaming community would have missed out on some fantastic Japanese games that really had no other chance in the market of the late 90s/early 00s. We're very privileged now to have so access to so many great games and I think we sometimes forget how things were 20-30 years ago.
The bottom line for me is that issues like these have encouraged me to learn Japanese and engage with the source material to decide for myself whether a game has a good translation or not. As many others have pointed out, translations (more specifically localizations) have gotten much better on average, but there are still many personal choices and quirks that go into the English translated games we play today. It's really impossible to fully gauge not only the accuracy of a translation but the overall effect it has on the game's experience unless you're able to critically approach the differences yourself.
it's an akira toriyama character, I'd be more suprised if he wasn't named for a household itemNot saying they are accurate, obviously they aren't.
But seriously, does it even warrant a discussion? You'd much rather the guy below be called Soy Sauce?
i think ted is important but shouldn't be like worshipped as some people like to do. all i can say with regards to legacy though is look at where final fantasy is now and look where any WD game is now.
You won't get any argument for me (big fan of Woolsey), but he's often criticised in the same breath as WD for similar reasons (I even recall magazines at the time criticising him for e.g. making Secret of Mana 1's boss defeat recurring message "way to go").
Fun fact, Blaustein approached me for a translator job during the 90s due to my Japanese -> English translation FAQ for Final Fantasy Tactics. :)
Yeah, there was definitely a trend of Woolsey being trashed by people despite him otherwise actually being good at what he did.
Reminds me honestly a lot of how people treated Carl Macek (though some of the criticisms of him are at least a little warranted)
Why are people acting like there's a binary between references and no references, and that there's no further distinction between them? The assertion is that Working Designs did bad references, not they did references, therefore they are bad. It's not a gotcha to say that other games have pop culture references too, because obviously. It's that Working Designs did a bad job using them and their products were worse for it.
Speaking of localizations, this is one that needs an English translation for the English translation. Hopefully your guide didn't have dragons using Ice Bracelet.
Exactly.
There's a gulf between "heh heh heh FIRE" and "Call me Clinton and I'd be president"
they also swung for the fences with racist "jokes" in keeping with the 90s tude, which is something woosley never did. so that makes woosley better by any stretch
Woolsey had barely a month to translate and localize all of Chrono Trigger by himself. Dunking on his individual, crunch-driven work seems hardly fair in this context.
Working Designs did a terrible job with them, this thread didnt even touch on what i consider their worst title (Magic Knights of Rayearth). It's just disingenuous to keep bashing them for references while excusing others cause you like them. "heh heh fire fire" is also dumb, it's a fucking beavis and butthead "joke" on a classic rpg. Just because something else is dumber doesn't excuse it.
There's nothing worse than official translations that have pop culture/meme references in them. It's the easiest way to make your game feel dated. Even the Ace Attorney games did some of this, and it's more than a bit cringey - but those WD translations take the cake.
I haven't looked, but has anyone done unofficial fan translations of the originals, or at least done something to clean up the official ones? That might be a solution.
I haven't looked, but has anyone done unofficial fan translations of the originals, or at least done something to clean up the official ones? That might be a solution.
Playing FFVI as a kid, I didn't even recognize it as a Beavis and Butthead reference. Just the dialogue of an arsonist sicko.
Pop culture references are fine depending on how they handle them. Working Designs was just terrible about them.
Man I was straight up playing magic knight rayearth a few years ago on my Sega Saturn and it was my first introduction to Working Designs and this shit caught me off guard. Orange haired MC slaps her green haired love interest for reasons. Shit had me like ???????????
Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of their translations, but apparently they at least translated some games that never would've made it over otherwise. I think that's why a lot of folks like them.
I also despise their changes in difficulty. Made some games significantly less enjoyable for me.
I also despise their changes in difficulty. Made some games significantly less enjoyable for me.
fucking barfMan I was straight up playing magic knight rayearth a few years ago on my Sega Saturn and it was my first introduction to Working Designs and this shit caught me off guard. Orange haired MC slaps her green haired love interest for reasons. Shit had me like ???????????
Oof, what's funnier than domestic abuse. Like I've said, in 2021 Working Designs are a problem.Man I was straight up playing magic knight rayearth a few years ago on my Sega Saturn and it was my first introduction to Working Designs and this shit caught me off guard. Orange haired MC slaps her green haired love interest for reasons. Shit had me like ???????????
I mean, i guess some of these count as "references" but the existence of references doesn't bother me as much as the straight-up sexist and outright racist content. jesus.
This is garbage-ass nonsense, not just for the awful game localization, but that it's basically shitting on the Magic Knights Rayearth source material, too.Man I was straight up playing magic knight rayearth a few years ago on my Sega Saturn and it was my first introduction to Working Designs and this shit caught me off guard. Orange haired MC slaps her green haired love interest for reasons. Shit had me like ???????????
Yeah, Nintendo did the localization.
It was even released in 2011 in the West and heavily promoted as well.
NoE handled the localization process.
There was literally an English version of the game before fan were even aware that the game was worth anything.
Really hope you stop using strawman to support your point
"Ted Woolsey isn't a sacred cow and also commited the same sins lots of other localizations are blasted for" does not equal "WORKING DESIGNS IS FINE LOOK EVERYONE IS LIKE THEM TOO"
I mentioned Magic Knights of Rayearth as horrible myself before that screenshot. And believe it or not, its not even the worst thing in that game.
This is one of the worst takes in the thread.
Congratulations?
When Square Enix redid the translation for the GBA, that line of text is consistent with the prior translation.
Heck if you don't know it was a B&B ref, you would never know it was meant to be ref at all.
I'm not making excuses for other titles because references aren't something that need excusing. There's nothing wrong with having references in a game. Their references are bad, that's the point people are making.
I wasn't referencing you but go off I guess.
It's not a strawman to point out that other people have tried to insinuate that a B&BH quote was the same thing as what WD was doing.
I was the one mentioning the quote as bad in this page so i assumed it was for me. My bad then i guess
I have zero intention of defending WD. My point mostly started when people began blasting AA localization as well which makes no sense since the base game is full of the same puns, jokes and whatnots. Two cringey jokes here and there (that are just cringey for being outdated references, not on the level of sexist and racist bullshit) do not ruin the entire rest of the great job they done with the series.
I feel like depending on the title they do, yeah. Specially if they're not in line with the original translation and were added just because like the infamous meme quote on that zelda game. Some genres and some titles lend better to them and even the references themselves can be better adjusted according to the material - i don't think beavis and butthead was a particular good fit for Final Fantasy, but it seems like B&B wasnt as big as it was here and the reference flew past some peoples head.
The Japanese AA games are loaded with puns and goofy humor, but the localization is a massive white-washing out of Japanese culture. The hamburgering, to put it simply, of Ace Attorney was awful.
considering they have to prove a throughline from working designs to xenoblade i don't think they will be coming back lol
spoiler: they can't