• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
Working as a copyeditor, this ends up becoming very troublesome. Not only does it just sound bad to many people (including me), it becomes confusing in situations when you are talking about different individuals and groups. Unfortunately, the English language does not have a neutral pronoun (other than "it" which is itself troublesome). I also don't really like "he/she" because it also starts to sound bad and boost the word count once you really get going. I prefer to write or rewrite documents in such a way that pronouns are avoided altogether when a specific person isn't being referred to, though that can be challenging if the document wasn't originally planned with that style in mind.
With all due respect, this sounds like you're projecting. You're used to working and checking words to see if they fit the style you were trained for. Most people don't do that. You can argue that we all have a implicit understanding of grammar, and that's true, but the implicit understanding many of us have is one where "they" can and should be used in a singular neutral context.
 

jay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,275
They is incorrect. Use she, or even he. It's better than being wrong and less painful to read than he/she.
 
OP
OP
NineConsonants
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
I feel like the practical issue with trying to adopt "random" use of gendered pronouns is that people are gonna inevitably default to using "he," subconsciously or otherwise. Adopting they/them forces gender neutrality and doesn't have the added issue of NB exclusion.
If they're defaulting to using "he" then they aren't actually doing it though. And I say add to it by also sometimes putting in a non-binary person at times too.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,354
It is quite easier in Germany. You just use "Innen" or "In", with an upper-case "i" after a normal gender-neutral or masculine word if you want to imply gender-neutrality at a whole. (like BürgerIn (neutral) Bürger (masculin) Bürgerin (feminin with lower-case "i"), SchülerIn, etc.) But that's just for descriptions, etc.
If you want to talk about a person or to a person, you would use formal speek, who is gender-neutral.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,264
It's takes me out of the story a bit whenever "she" feels like a deliberate political choice. Generally I think men using "he" and women using "she" feels more natural. But that of course doesn't cover non binary people.
 
OP
OP
NineConsonants
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
It's takes me out of the story a bit whenever "she" feels like a deliberate political choice. Generally I think men using "he" and women using "she" feels more natural. But that of course doesn't cover non binary people.
But think about that for a minute. Why do you fee so at guard when that happens? Should you do some inventory and ask if you're the one creating this vibe?
 

Deleted member 18347

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,572
Use they.

It's a neutral term. Some will associate it with a she, some with a he and some with a hypothetical person that could be either.

It's not your job to try and reprogram people or counter their influences in that regard.

You're overthinking it to the point where you're taking it to another undesirable extreme.
 

Rodan

Member
Nov 3, 2017
634
While reading articles and sites about parenthood online, you'll find most alternate between calling your hypothetical baby "he" or "she". I.e. "she will start to crawl", "he needs positive reinforcement", etc instead of a more abstract "they". Sounds like what OP is advocating for.

Unfortunately it seems that 99% of those same articles/blogs assume the parent reading is "mommy".
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,264
But think about that for a minute. Why do you fee so at guard when that happens? Should you do some inventory and ask if you're the one creating this vibe?
Maybe. Not a universal opinion. I just know that whenever they say "she" on Scriptnotes I'm like "Wait, who are they talking about? Oh right, they deliberately only use 'she' on this podcast."
 
OP
OP
NineConsonants
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
Use they.

It's a neutral term. Some will associate it with a she, some with a he and some with a hypothetical person that could be either.

It's not your job to try and reprogram people or counter their influences in that regard.

You're overthinking it to the point where you're taking it to another undesirable extreme.
It's not about reprogramming people. And I don't really see it as overthinking. It is a very true statement that most people have a man as the abstraction of humanity. Is it really overthinking it to go "hey, I'll make this about a woman instead of just saying he". The same logic can also extend to non-binary representation.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Yuval Harari does it and I think he uses it quite effectively.
I also think it's much harder to pull well than singular they, so as a non-native speaker I usually goes with it.
But I think it's good to have a conversation about this point.
 
Oct 25, 2017
40
The singular they works fine. Wikipedia has a nice article on it. I don't think "okay okay, the person could be a woman but we know we're really thinking of a guy in this hypothetical" makes any sense applied to a gender-neutral pronoun. It also predates the prescription of 'he' by 400+ years, for anyone who thinks it's wrong.
 
OP
OP
NineConsonants
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
The singular they works fine. Wikipedia has a nice article on it. I don't think "okay okay, the person could be a woman but we know we're really thinking of a guy in this hypothetical" makes any sense applied to a gender-neutral pronoun. It also predates the prescription of 'he' by 400+ years, for anyone who thinks it's wrong.
Male-bias doesn't make sense, but it still definitely exists in large doses. And I don't think the age of these pronouns has any influence on how people take them.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The singular they works fine. Wikipedia has a nice article on it. I don't think "okay okay, the person could be a woman but we know we're really thinking of a guy in this hypothetical" makes any sense applied to a gender-neutral pronoun. It also predates the prescription of 'he' by 400+ years, for anyone who thinks it's wrong.
I don't think it has to be one or the other, I think both techniques can be used effectively.
I do think that singular they is more flexible and there some times that alternating he/she will not work.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,152
With all due respect, this sounds like you're projecting. You're used to working and checking words to see if they fit the style you were trained for. Most people don't do that. You can argue that we all have a implicit understanding of grammar, and that's true, but the implicit understanding many of us have is one where "they" can and should be used in a singular neutral context.

When you work with language long enough, the rules begin to not really be rules anymore. It all comes do to preference, and I rarely work exclusively in a particular style. Also, language changes, and what was once frowned upon becomes commonplace. So I do agree that using "they" as a singular neutral pronoun could very well become the norm in the future (it is definitely the front runner for lack of better options).

That said, my distaste for "they" as a singular pronoun has nothing to do with training in a particular style (though I admit years of experience certainly contribute to making it sound bad to my ears). If I wasn't able to be flexible with styles, I wouldn't be very good at my job. The thing is, (most) writing is not undertaken for the sake of the author, it is the audience that must be considered first, and--as a copy editor, not the original author--the client second. Like it or not, though "they" may be more politically preferable, it is--at the current time--grammatically incorrect. As I said, this could very well change in time, but as of now, when I have to choose between being grammatically or (marginally more) politically correct, my job tends to require the former. As I said, this definitely depends on the client and the audience, and in some cases I have indeed used "they," (though this is exceedingly rare). To be honest, I have found very few situations where I wasn't able to rewrite and avoid the problem altogether.
 

oledome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,907
It's what you said. If not, then what was the point? You're basically saying we mainly use "you".
We talk about hypothetical scenarios all the time, but the majority of the time it's with you, I and we.

But if someone (there we go) is making a point using a made up person, giving that person a gender for reasons completely irrelevant to the hypothetical, but in order to bring balance to the genders we assign to made up people... well I think that's quite unhelpful at a point where you want to be understood above all else. If your background aim is to correct people it also means you're making assumptions about the person you are taking to.

I think you have an idea but practically speaking it's useless, it's not something you would use frequently (to the first point) and it's not going to be helpful when you do, if being understood is what you were after.

So I've just explained my opinion to you but it's not the style in which I interact with people normally on a day to day, maybe at your work or generally in your life you have many opportunities to talk about a hypothetical she.
 
OP
OP
NineConsonants
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
We talk about hypothetical scenarios all the time, but the majority of the time it's with you, I and we.

But if someone (there we go) is making a point using a made up person, giving that person a gender for reasons completely irrelevant to the hypothetical, but in order to bring balance to the genders we assign to made up people... well I think that's quite unhelpful at a point where you want to be understood above all else. If your background aim is to correct people it also means you're making assumptions about the person you are taking to.

I think you have an idea but practically speaking it's useless, it's not something you would use frequently (to the first point) and it's not going to be helpful when you do, if being understood is what you were after.

So I've just explained my opinion to you but it's not the style in which I interact with people normally on a day to day, maybe at your work or generally in your life you have many opportunities to talk about a hypothetical she.
Your argument that this situation is rare is simply untrue. I mean, I don't know how else to say anything other than you're simply wrong. Talking about a hypothetical person in the third person is not a rare occurrence. And I really really really do not see how using a random gender is going to make me unclear and hard to understand.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
Working as a copyeditor, this ends up becoming very troublesome. Not only does it just sound bad to many people (including me), it becomes confusing in situations when you are talking about different individuals and groups. Unfortunately, the English language does not have a neutral pronoun (other than "it" which is itself troublesome). I also don't really like "he/she" because it also starts to sound bad and boost the word count once you really get going. I prefer to write or rewrite documents in such a way that pronouns are avoided altogether when a specific person isn't being referred to, though that can be challenging if the document wasn't originally planned with that style in mind.
I'm a tech writer, and I agree. The problem with "they" is that using it as a gender-neutral pronoun is gramatically incorrect, so it doesn't work in formal or professional settings. "He/she" is clunky, and while writing to avoid pronouns altogether sometimes works, dancing around it can also result in clunky writing. Having said that, since "they" is becoming common in everyday use, formal English may soon evolve to accept that form of the word.

Style guides tend to address the issue by saying "just be consistent with which pronoun you use", which makes sense to me. But I also agree with OP in that if you're writing an example, you're totally free to write a hypothetical female character instead of a male one, just to break up the habit of assuming everyone is male. Writing examples that sometimes use male or female characters isn't unusual in instructional writing. Going "Jane decided to do this" in one example and then saying "John decided to do this" in a later, unrelated example is fine, and not confusing to the reader.

Even in technical writing for my job, I'm going with singular they. I liberally referenced the AP Stylebook's recent take on the matter as precedent. It's not a clean precedent but it reads the best as opposed to constant "he or she", or trying to forgo the pronoun altogether.
Shit, really? Huh.
 

Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
I think most people agree that saying "he/she" gets tedious when trying to keep a story of a hypothetical person gender-neutral. But I also think it does less good. Because really, adding the "/she" part feels like "okay okay, the person could be a woman but we know we're really thinking of a guy in this hypothetical".

So I think it's better to just sometimes gender your hypothetical people as women in stories. And sometimes gender them as men too, obviously. The important thing is to go "pick a gender, who cares! This story is going to be about a woman this time. Maybe next time it will be a man!"



I'm holding the same argument against things like "they", "s/he" and other similar genderless pronouns


This is the most dumbest thing that I have ever read. S/he is fine, They is fine, them is fine or any other gender neutral term is fine...except for It, that's offensive for obvious reasons.

Trying to default a person as a woman, when they might not be is even more offensive. I am male and I would prefer to be referred to as either the male pronouns or the gender neutral one. Furthermore in your faux attempt to be progressive you fail to realise that it could be offensive to trans people.
 

Incandenza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,134
David Foster Wallace would do this in a lot of his essays. I also knew someone who made a point of doing it in all the academic papers they wrote. I like it. One of those things that throws you off and then forces you to think about why it threw you off.
 

Timeaisis

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,139
Austin, TX
"They" is actually not great, because you lose whether you are talking about one person or multiple people. I think the important thing is to pick one and be consistent, in which case "she" is fine. And definitely don't use "it".

Most style guides recommend rewording your sentence if you feel the need to use the singular they. Clarity is most important.
 
OP
OP
NineConsonants
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
This is the most dumbest thing that I have ever read. S/he is fine, They is fine, them is fine or any other gender neutral term is fine...except for It, that's offensive for obvious reasons.

Trying to default a person as a woman, when they might not be is even more offensive. I am male and I would prefer to be referred to as either the male pronouns or the gender neutral one. Furthermore in your faux attempt to be progressive you fail to realise that it could be offensive to trans people.
You're saying it's the dumbest thing you've ever read when you clearly do not understand what it says. I'm talking about putting a gender to a hypothetical person when talking about a scenario or a made up person in a story. How exactly does one misgender a hypothetical person? And I don't see how transgender fits into this. The hypothetical person being labeled a woman could either be cisgender or transgender but still be labeled a woman if that is supposed to be their identifying gender. If you meant non-binary, then you could extend this to sometimes labeling the person as non-binary.
 

Deleted member 18347

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,572
It's not about reprogramming people. And I don't really see it as overthinking. It is a very true statement that most people have a man as the abstraction of humanity. Is it really overthinking it to go "hey, I'll make this about a woman instead of just saying he". The same logic can also extend to non-binary representation.
For something this ingrained in our collective psyche the solution is simply better and equal representation of all genders in all facets of life. Eventually, more and more people will not default to picturing any singular gender when presented with the pronoun "they" in a hypothetical, which in most cases is a man.

That process can include instances of killing any possiblity of the hypothetical person being defaulted into a "he" by explicitly stating they are a "she".

So in a sense I think you are actually right about this.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I'm a tech writer, and I agree. The problem with "they" is that using it as a gender-neutral pronoun is gramatically incorrect, so it doesn't work in formal or professional settings. "He/she" is clunky, and while writing to avoid pronouns altogether sometimes works, dancing around it can also result in clunky writing. Having said that, since "they" is becoming common in everyday use, formal English may soon evolve to accept that form of the word.

Style guides tend to address the issue by saying "just be consistent with which pronoun you use", which makes sense to me. But I also agree with OP in that if you're writing an example, you're totally free to write a hypothetical female character instead of a male one, just to break up the habit of assuming everyone is male. Writing examples that sometimes use male or female characters isn't unusual in instructional writing. Going "Jane decided to do this" in one example and then saying "John decided to do this" in a later, unrelated example is fine, and not confusing to the reader.
There's nothing objectively wrong with singular they, and they idea that it should be avoided is pretty, and it never really took hold in the English language at any point in time. So even the small c conservative argument doesn't hold water here.
You're choosing to follow a style guide that prohibit them, I personally think we should change those style guides since there's no good reason to prohibit them and a bunch of good ones to allow them, but it's not usually up to the tech writer.
 

Lord Azrael

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,976
I think your suggestion is prone to gender biases. No one is going to be able to keep it exactly 50/50, they'll probably have a leaning. I also disagree that using he/she or s/he makes people automatically think male. Seems like you're projecting. S/he even puts the feminine pronoun first.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I think your suggestion is prone to gender biases. No one is going to be able to keep it exactly 50/50, they'll probably have a leaning. I also disagree that using he/she or s/he makes people automatically think male. Seems like you're projecting. S/he even puts the feminine pronoun first.
Yuval Harari does it quite effectively I think.
I agree it's harder to pull, especially in speech, which is why I often go with singular they, but it's nice idea to keep in the back of the mind because I at least saw opportunities to use it.
 

MIMIC

Member
Dec 18, 2017
8,319
I think deliberately using "she" in a hypothetical would distract more than anything. If my person could hypothetically be a man or woman, I just use "they." I'll leave it to the listener to pick the gender.
 

BUNTING1243

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,708
i try to use they. i get where you're trying to go with "she" instead, but I've heard enough from gender binary/trans people that I care about to feel like she/he can be exclusionary to people outside the gender binary.
 

BriGuy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,275
Just refer to whomever as "this fucker" and you won't have any issues. You'll be more entertaining to your listeners as well.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I think deliberately using "she" in a hypothetical would distract more than anything. If my person could hypothetically be a man or woman, I just use "they." I'll leave it to the listener to pick the gender.
I think the point is to get to the where it's not distracting, and at least in my limited experience, it doesn't have to be.
I took this course where the professor did it, and it was kinda weird for 10 minutes, but then you get used to it. I actually got to appreciate it and it made me think about the way we frame our stories.
I think listening to it for hours of that messed with my brain in a good way.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
a lot of people on this website default to male pronouns (even I do it myself sometimes) so I don't see the point in being obtuse about the premise of the OP.
 

TheMan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,264
User Banned (3 Days): Inappropriate Drive-by Comment, Accumulated Infractions
Thot
 

jokingbird

Member
Oct 25, 2017
687
This sounds like you are over thinking this and it seems arbitrary. Use whatever you want for hypothetical discussions, only a curmudgeon is going to call you out on it.
 

ReginaldXIV

Member
Nov 4, 2017
7,788
Minnesota
You (preferrably their name if you know it), they, them, y'all. They sound way better in practice anyway and you'll never accidentally make a situation awkward.