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Deleted member 8861

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We've probably all seen the easy mode discourse recently, especially around Sekiro and other From Software games. That discourse included debates about disability, difficulty, game design, elitism, and more.

I think it's fair to say that the subject is complicated and nuanced, and especially that dismissal of accessibility and how it influences the gameplay experience is a reductive and wrong way to look at games.

I want to preface this by saying that none of what is about to follow is an argument against accessibility options in games. A developer choosing to make an accessible game is never a decision to criticize. It might alter the game in ways, and I'm about to make the case that some of these ways might be to the detriment of what the game might be trying to convey, but that's still always a valid and worthwhile way to design a game. In short, I have nothing against Celeste's Assist Mode.

I am just trying to make the case that the opposite is also a potentially valid way to design a game. A game deliberately refusing to accommodate the needs and wants of the player can make for good storytelling. However, this is a difficult creative decision and precisely because it plays on the notions of accessibility, such a game needs to be approached with care. Therefore, I'm not making the argument that inaccessible games are beyond criticism- but I'm saying that the game needs to justify such a decision.

I actually don't feel this is fully conclusive -in the sense that perhaps universal accessibility is more important to have than experiences like these- but I think this side of the discussion is worth having from a game design perspective and a part of the discussion that mattered to me but seemed lost and ignored in the larger discussion.

P.S. In what follows, "inaccessible" stands for "inaccessible for some people with disabilities", but it can also be more generally understood as needing higher physical proficiency (reaction time etc.) to play.

---

Games are perhaps the first truly interactive medium of storytelling in human history. Stuff like choose-your-own-adventure books simulate(d) interactivity to a degree, but at the end of the day a book can't keep you from leafing through the pages and finding an ending you like to read. Interactivity in games goes a step beyond such freedom, which comes down to being the freedom to rearrange the order of what you're seeing, and not much more than that. (After all, you probably won't stop reading a CYOA book after your first run, the entire idea is trying different things and seeing how the outcome changes. Perhaps more to the point, there's almost nothing you can permanently (or to any degree, irreversibly) change in such a book. I think games differ.)

Games can keep things from you, or take things from you, and this gives games a whole new set of tools to convey stories in ways previously impossible. I think that a lot of discussion around interactive storytelling or stories that can "only be told in a game" come around to being a consequence of this idea: We want our choices in games, our agency, to carry weight, and that's only possible if there is something actually at stake.

Many acclaimed games and series directly exploit this idea for their gameplay mechanics: In modern Persona, how you choose to spend every day matters precisely because you can't feasibly do everything before the game ends. Yoko Taro's work also plays a lot with this idea in many ways, but the most illustrative of them are spoilers, so you'll have to take me at my word if you've not played his games. Some visual novels also dabble in this idea by, say, locking or hiding certain choices/branches until you reach certain points in the story. Puzzles and hidden collectibles are similar, although they're somewhat easier to replicate with an analog medium (say, a book).

There are also more complex ways in which games can influence your interaction with them: Games can modify not just which parts of the game you get to see, but also how you get to interact with the game. As you might imagine, this is where things like difficulty modes come in. One might say difficult games parallel, stylistically, literature that uses lofty language, but in games difficulty is more direct and profound than that; difficulty obstructs progress and unlike a difficult book, when it comes to a difficult game, the game decides when you can progress. This is just another example of the game keeping something (namely, the rest of/part of the game) from you, and it exerts incredible influence on many elements of a game (from progression mechanics, to combat design, to story). It's a new creative avenue to explore, and I'll come back to this later.

Easy and hard options in a game that offers both have relatively predictable effects: On an easy mode, it's easier (perhaps!) to focus on story, it is more accessible on account of demanding less skill from the player, quicker to beat for people who have less time to play a game. A harder mode (at least in a well-designed game), on the other hand, offers a deeper experience, where mastery of mechanics and skills the game demands of you (which often entails some level of physical proficiency- but not always, in Hexcells for example) can lead to a more intense and rewarding time with the game.

By and large, the vast majority of games benefit from both options. This is sometimes simply due to the fact that difficulty in gameplay doesn't factor into the story (e.g. in Final Fantasy X), and sometimes it's because of design flaws (like how SOMA's enemy encounters felt clunky and so the no-enemy mode offered a less frustrating and thus more engaging way to play the story, even though you lose a lot of horror elements from the enemies being gone). Frankly, it's also true that most games out there strive to be entertainment rather than a deeply introspective work of art, so for a lot of games, most individual components of the game are non-essential. Hence why rhythm and shoot 'em up games benefit so heavily from multiple difficulty options; difficulty plays into the designs of those games as something to overcome and not much more than that.

However, I don't believe this is the case for every game. Specifically, I believe that the first Dark Souls justifies its inaccessibility as a game, and very few other games do (if any). I wanted to keep this post as free of From Software comparisons as possible, but DS1 is the only game that I can think of which truly manages to justify its inaccessible nature, and the one game that I think would be fundamentally different for having (especially non-diegetic) easier difficulty options. (And to reiterate, since that makes the game more accessible, it's still not an overall bad change. Just different.)

Like with any other attribute in any other medium, the existence of difficulty options changes the context in which a game is portrayed: Conversely, so does the absence of difficulty options. A hard difficulty in a game with difficulty options is a choice- even if Hard mode is the "recommended way to play", ultimately the game gives you leeway to experience the game as you wish. (This is, to me, part of why Wolfenstein The New Order's difficulty options having patronizing names is nonsensical; by including them the game sends the opposite message. A bigger part is that they really don't need to treat people who might need/want easier difficulty options as children.) A game without difficulty options, on the other hand, is explicitly unwelcoming. The game is telling you, before you even start the game proper, that it is unwilling to accommodate your wishes and that you might have to struggle.

If you can drop down the difficulty, continuing to play through the game in its difficult state is something you subject yourself to. It carries no further significance than that. However, if the game itself is forcing you to play on a hard difficulty, then struggling within the game is part of the game's message. If this is not supported by anything else in the game, however, difficulty only becomes significant as a challenge. That, I believe, is why we get charges of elitism thrown around all the time (especially at anyone in the Souls community who's fine with the singular difficulty option): If you believe difficulty is only in there as a barrier for skill, it's easy to see people who don't want to lower that barrier as elitist.

However, difficulty can serve a bigger purpose than a skill barrier, and therefore a difficult game refusing to accommodate a player's wishes or needs (wrt. difficulty) can create a unique thematic experience.

This is hard to generally describe, so I'll describe how DS1 does it:

Dark Souls 1 beats you down from the get go. You're locked in an asylum and you're undead. The narration lies to you as you fly to Lordran, and the lie is revealed mere moments later when you talk to the Crestfallen Knight at the Firelink Shrine: It turns out you weren't some special 'chosen one' at all, and there are two bells of awakening, not one, like you were told. Perhaps most importantly, the world is infested by Hollows; if you give up your quest, you truly risk becoming one as well.

The last bit is crucial- it is the artery that connects the narrative/storytelling of Dark Souls to the physical difficulty the player is facing. The game is not difficult because you're an 'experienced player of action role playing games willing to engage deeply with the mechanics' or whatever- the game is difficult to play because within the game, you're in a difficult situation, all alone, and you are close to giving up on everything. You didn't choose to be here, but if you want to persist in your existence, you have to struggle.

Therein lies the genius- it is often we see that a story and a setting is designed around gameplay. Take any CoD game with a barely -if at all- coherent story because everyone's there for the shootybang (and arguably some are also there for rampant glorification of American imperialism but I digress). Dark Souls subverts this, and designs the experience around the world. How you are able to approach the game is dictated by your circumstances in the in-game world. The game takes away your ability to have an experience closely according to your wishes (or even needs), because in Lordran, the Chosen Undead has no power, and he/she is trapped.

Giving the player the agency to mold the experience into their liking gives them power. Hitting an obstacle because you're putting your own self through a challenge doesn't have the same impact or the same context as hitting an obstacle you cannot bypass (regardless of choice) but have to overcome.

(There's a temptation hee to draw a parallel to a horror game without a mode to get rid of monsters. While this parallel works to some extent -there, the difficulty isn't conveyed through mechanical mastery but rather actual fear of moving onward- it doesn't fully convey the experience, because you can remedy the tension/reach safety pretty much by closing the game and not opening it again. What's at stake in Dark Souls isn't something you can find in the real world like (relative) safety; it's simply getting to see the rest of the game. That provides another difference.)

Dark Souls uses its lore, themes and game mechanics to build a mindset of struggle. That's why bonfires are significant, that's why levels are designed around shortcuts, and that's why the game is not letting a high level of difficulty just be a choice. Dying again and again, losing progress, having to adapt to the game's unfriendliness- all of it plays into the idea that you're in a bad place and you don't want to be. It's like a meta kind of horror/tension, conveyed through gameplay mechanics, chiefly difficulty. (Conversely, if travel wasn't so time-consuming and risky, getting to Firelink wouldn't feel half as peaceful and reassuring to me.)

We've all heard enough about how Dark Souls' mechanics tie excellently into the difficulty of the combat system, I'm sure, so I'll leave it here.

By refusing the player the right to have a choice (and by all means, such choice should by and large be standard in the medium), Dark Souls creates subtle but strong constraints around the experience. It's designed to pull the rug from under you. The game keeps your rights from you, and that's why it's so effective at building the mindset and mood it wants you to have, in my eyes. Not giving up in spite of the unfairness of the game is part and parcel with the main story.

This is also why difficulty in Dark Souls is not about "a sense of pride and accomplishment", or anything of the sort. That element IS there, of course, but perhaps in direct opposition to most other difficult games, Dark Souls' difficulty is there for the frustration and fatigue it creates first, and for the elation overcoming it brings second.

--

That concludes my main argument, but there's some more stuff I want to address:

1. Cheats let you steamroll the game anyway, so why bother not having a completely easy mode in the game?

I think there's a difference between a game played with and without game-breaking cheats. That's not to go all "you cheated yourself" on you- if you want to blaze through Dark Souls, sure, do your thing! But expecting all developers to provide a dissected, sanitized version of all their creations just so that everyone who wants to have a gander at a piece of a carefully constructed whole is unreasonable, and in my eyes, a touch disrespectful. If Dark Souls 4 came out tomorrow with a debug mode or whatever, I wouldn't really bat an eye, but it's not something to criticize a game for not having. This is the one place where I'd invoke the "creative freedom" argument.

Including game-breaking modes is perfectly fine, but if they had to be included, we wouldn't have experiences like Dark Souls 1 where the lack of choice in direct selection of difficulty matters to the game.

2. Bloodborne, DS2/DS3, Sekiro

I don't think any of these games use their decision to be inaccessible to any comparable level of competence or significance as DS1. I'm partial to Bloodborne -difficult bosses serve the theme of the hunt and the terrifying nature of later creatures you find, and the whole horror angle- but with DS2, DS3 and Sekiro, I don't see anything that'd be thematically lost if they were the normal/hard mode of a game with difficulty options. So yeah, I do think Sekiro would be better off with an easy mode- the game does nothing else with the lack of difficulty choice. If anything, as the badass servant to a liege, it makes perfect sense that the Wolf would steamroll almost any boss in that game. Idols, XP/gold system etc. all carry very well to a more superficial treatment of difficulty (being there as a skill threshold) that loses nothing by being in a difficulty option.

These games don't do enough, generally speaking, to justify being inaccessible.

3. Still inaccessible.

I will reiterate what I said at the beginning: I don't have the full answers to this debate. But I wanted to refute one particular point that came up in the Sekiro discussions again and again, that adding difficulty options changes nothing about the game. This post is a counterargument to that statement: I argued that it CAN change things, in select circumstances, if the game is designed around being as unwelcoming as possible- and that not giving difficulty options can be a valid narrative device for a game.

If people think having such narratives is less important than ensuring that everyone can play Dark Souls 1 one way or another, I have no counter or repose to that. I don't see that as a position to stand against.

4. What about the fact that difficulty is subjective? Why not have such modes so that everyone can gear the game to be hard for themselves?

I'll admit that there's a weak point in my reasoning here. There's no way to simultaneously ensure that a game like Dark Souls can convey the essence of being trapped and helpless through the lack of difficulty options, while ensuring that everyone feels an appropriate level of difficulty the developers intended everyone to experience. Perhaps this is simply an area in which Dark Souls' usage of game mechanics falters somewhat, and someone will be able to take the same ideas (unwelcoming through options provided by the game, a game taking things away from you) and establish them in a different manner of difficulty than combat (or another gameplay mechanic requiring physical fidelity), so that being inclusive of all people with disabilities doesn't even have to be a debate at all (and can be a foregone conclusion).

If the game had widely advertised easy modes, a lot of people would deliberately not play the game on the intended difficulty, and so that aspect of the game (that it's something you're forced into) would be lost, especially because if a game does have difficulty levels, people who play on the easy/easier difficulties are no less valid members of the community and the 'difficulty' that would've been otherwise much more attached to the perception of the game is lost.

5. What about summoning and other ways (e.g. Drake Sword) to make Dark Souls easy? Doesn't that undermine your point about the game refusing to compromise on being easy?

I think part of what makes Dark Souls work is that it pushes you to find handholds and footholds to push yourself forward, precisely by being so unyielding in its rules. I think such diegetic means of regulating the difficulty (that is to say, adjusting difficulty by using things within the game world) of the game provide a good compromise between creating a mechanically hostile world and still ensuring people have means to get through the games. I especially love the idea that in an unwelcoming, hostile world and game, the only way to make the game significantly easy that is clearly communicated to the player is to ask for help.

Also, if that provided the measures everyone wanted to make the game actually easy, the controversy wouldn't exist in the first place, so clearly they're not enough of an easy mode.

---

Well, I think that's all I wanted to say.
 

OrigamiPirate

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 31, 2017
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I feel like this is a lot of words to say "sometimes you just have to git gud". I'm not trying to be derisive, I just feel like that's what each argument boils down to?
 

Goldenroad

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Dark Souls is a multiplayer game first and foremost. You dont have to get good, you can just summon people who are good. It's weird how you dont even mention that it is a multiplayer game that you are meant to play with other people.
 

Goldenroad

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We all played Souls games the wrong way guys.

Maybe you did. You think I'm the only one that played DS cooperatively? To me not using summoning would be like not using the leaf power up in Super Mario Brothers 3 just to prove how good you are at the game. And you know what. It probably does in some way make you "better" at it, but you're also missing out on a huge part of what makes the game amazing.
 

Deleted member 18944

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From Software games being designed to be difficult is valid but being designed to be inaccessible in the way that they are isn't justifiable at all.

Not to mention that the difficulty baked into the game is the type of difficulty designed for able bodied people to experience.

Not being able bodied is quite literally adding a spectrum of difficulty levels for people.
 

Deleted member 2229

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I feel like this is a lot of words to say "sometimes you just have to git gud". I'm not trying to be derisive, I just feel like that's what each argument boils down to?
This is pretty dismissive of what the OP is trying to say and not really what I got out of it at all, and I would probably recommend reading it again if this is really the only conclusion you drew from it.

That being said, while well worded and a lot of time and thought was put into it I don't really agree with a lot of the conclusions the OP comes to.

Mainly:
I don't think any of these games use their decision to be inaccessible to any comparable level of competence or significance as DS1. I'm partial to Bloodborne -difficult bosses serve the theme of the hunt and the terrifying nature of later creatures you find, and the whole horror angle- but with DS2, DS3 and Sekiro, I don't see anything that'd be thematically lost if they were the normal/hard mode of a game with difficulty options. So yeah, I do think Sekiro would be better off with an easy mode- the game does nothing else with the lack of difficulty choice. If anything, as the badass servant to a liege, it makes perfect sense that the Wolf would steamroll almost any boss in that game. Idols, XP/gold system etc. all carry very well to a more superficial treatment of difficulty (being there as a skill threshold) that loses nothing by being in a difficulty option.

These games don't do enough, generally speaking, to justify being inaccessible.
I don't really see how you can say Dark Souls 1 beats the protagonist down but these games don't when:

Dark Souls 2 & 3:
Have essentially the same set up and reasoning as 1. You never become the singular 'chosen undead' until you complete your task, things are always just as difficult for the player in game as DS1. Arguably worse in DS3 given that you're brought back from the dead to go bring back the past Chosen Undead, all of whom might as well be gods in comparison to you and you start out at 0. Things never really get any better and every time you link the fire you're just putting off the inevitable bitter end until tomorrow. Meaning every time you start a new game you're just starting back out at 0.

Bloodborne:
You're an individual coming to a city that's falling apart in real time, looking for a cure for a disease, making you start off the game in a similarly debilitated state, being forced to face off against the inhabitants of what might as well be the entire city in which you are clearly unwelcome and beasts, monsters, the supernatural/paranormal and arguably psychological.

Sekiro: You start the game in prison and then get your arm cut off almost immediately after. It's an uphill battle and you're not even starting from 0, but -1. Yeah you get your new prosthetic arm (that you must learn to use) but you're once again put into a position of weakness and are told to go earn back your prior glory throughout the game.

This is also why difficulty in Dark Souls is not about "a sense of pride and accomplishment", or anything of the sort. That element IS there, of course, but perhaps in direct opposition to most other difficult games, Dark Souls' difficulty is there for the frustration and fatigue it creates first, and for the elation overcoming it brings second.
Truth be told this just sounds silly. This is exactly why it's about a sense of pride and accomplishment, not the contrary. Because the harder things are, the greater sense of accomplishment you feel when you overcome them. These things work in tandem.

Dark Souls is a multiplayer game first and foremost. You dont have to get good, you can just summon people who are good. It's weird how you dont even mention that it is a multiplayer game that you are meant to play with other people.
Probably because it's not. It's an option but the game isn't built primarily around multiplayer interactions, hence why you're always given the ability to turn them off completely before you even start the game. How you'd even begin to come to this conclusion is beyond me. Multiplayer is a small part of a much larger whole.
 

LavaBadger

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Nov 14, 2017
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You should always be allowed to drop the difficulty, right up to the point where you are invincible.

There are people out there who would love to interact with a game and enjoy its world but literally struggle with using a controller (For lack of experience or any other reason), and for those people, the option should be there. If a developer wants to include a message that states "this is the difficulty we balanced the game for," great, all the better for giving players for information.

But no argument of artistic vision or author's intent matters if a person cannot engage with the game on a basic, fundamental level. Just let people play the game at whatever difficulty they see fit. It. Does. Not. Harm. Anyone. Else.
 

night814

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The real answer is that if you want them to be accessible you have to play the PC versions(except BB of course) and use mods, cheat engine, or trainers to tool the game exactly right for the individual.

If I hadn't used the item dup glitch in DeS I probably wouldn't have continued playing the games as I likely would not have been able to complete it. DaS was really tough too at first but since I had already "overcome" the games once I knew I could do it again without any help. That confidence more then anything was what helped me beat Dark Souls without help. I think if they had options some more people would be able to experience the games and would still be able to enjoy it without hurting anyone elses experience in the process, but I also understand that that's not a priority or even a care at all possibly for FROM.
 

XR.

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Nov 22, 2018
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Maybe you did. You think I'm the only one that played DS cooperatively? To me not using summoning would be like not using the leaf power up in Super Mario Brothers 3 just to prove how good you are at the game. And you know what. It probably does in some way make you "better" at it, but you're also missing out on a huge part of what makes the game amazing.
Are you seriously suggesting that a game with limited instance-based multiplayer that requires you to wait for summon signs after each boss/death is primarily a multiplayer title? Not to mention the fact that you need a fairly rare item each time you want to go online, but it's simply not viable to wait outside a boss every time.

I love playing online in Souls, but there's no way it's the only intended way of interacting with the game. You can summon or not, either way is fine.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP

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From Software games being designed to be difficult is valid but being designed to be inaccessible in the way that they are isn't justifiable at all.

Not to mention that the difficulty baked into the game is the type of difficulty designed for able bodied people to experience.

Not being able bodied is quite literally adding a spectrum of difficulty levels for people.
I understand this on some level, but I still feel like the inaccessiblility of the game provides a unique layer to the (narrative of the) game. Would you disagree that this layer exists?



(And to reiterate--I believe there IS a tension between this unique layer and being an accessible game, I partly wrote this to process the fact that the two valid things seem contradictory to me.)

(edit: I want to add that I see you post around a lot and greatly value your opinion. Thanks for discussing this.)

You should always be allowed to drop the difficulty, right up to the point where you are invincible.

There are people out there who would love to interact with a game and enjoy its world but literally struggle with using a controller (For lack of experience or any other reason), and for those people, the option should be there. If a developer wants to include a message that states "this is the difficulty we balanced the game for," great, all the better for giving players for information.

But no argument of artistic vision or author's intent matters if a person cannot engage with the game on a basic, fundamental level. Just let people play the game at whatever difficulty they see fit. It. Does. Not. Harm. Anyone. Else.
This is the exact reasoning I wrote the post against. Disability is one thing entirely, but putting that aside, why should the creator's intent not matter at all? What if they don't want someone to interact with the world without interacting with the mechanics?

This kind of power to dictate how to interact with the game is actually, in my eyes, a unique feature of games as a medium, and something a creator of games can use to great and significant effect (as I tried to argue was the case in Dark Souls 1).

It, to stretch the term, "harms" the messaging of the game for other people, is my point.
 

Acetown

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Oct 28, 2017
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Maybe you did. You think I'm the only one that played DS cooperatively? To me not using summoning would be like not using the leaf power up in Super Mario Brothers 3 just to prove how good you are at the game. And you know what. It probably does in some way make you "better" at it, but you're also missing out on a huge part of what makes the game amazing.

I played through the entire game not realising that you could reverse hollowing or what that meant. I can't be the only one.
 

Deleted member 18944

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I understand this on some level, but I still feel like the inaccessiblility of the game provides a unique layer to the (narrative of the) game. Would you disagree that this layer exists?

I think what most people miss when it comes to these conversations about accessibility for these games is that the difficulty is designed for able bodied people.

Adding accessibility doesn't make the game any less challenging, it provides an entire group of people who otherwise could not play the game for a plethora of reasons the ability to play the game. That difficulty doesn't disappear, and in fact, it's still probably incredibly difficult.
 
OP
OP

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I think what most people miss when it comes to these conversations about accessibility for these games is that the difficulty is designed for able bodied people.

Adding accessibility doesn't make the game any less challenging, it provides an entire group of people who otherwise could not play the game for a plethora of reasons the ability to play the game. That difficulty doesn't disappear, and in fact, it's still probably incredibly difficult.
That again leads to my point here, though--what's lost by difficulty options clearly isn't the difficulty itself, it's the context around that difficulty.
 

night814

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I played through the entire game not realising that you could reverse hollowing or what that meant. I can't be the only one.
Another thing that would help would be making certain things less obtuse, even game to game the method of "reviving" is different; DaS you revive by consuming humanity but in DaS2 you do it by burning a human effigy at a bonfire. Demons had multiple ways like beat a phantom or boss or use a stone of ephemeral eyes and BB has no "dead" form to begin with. Don't know about 3 or Sekiro but I imagine they also have somewhat different methods of doing things. It certainly doesn't make them more accessible by doing things this way.
 

foggy

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Oct 25, 2017
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I suppose I simply disagree in this case, even though I see where you're coming from.

The intent is being unwelcoming, as I see it.

When the other side of the discussion is viewing through the lens of ableism, then any level of artistic rhetoric is pointless. There aren't any concessions to make when lack of accessibility is considered ableist.
 

fontguy

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Oct 8, 2018
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From Software games being designed to be difficult is valid but being designed to be inaccessible in the way that they are isn't justifiable at all.

Not to mention that the difficulty baked into the game is the type of difficulty designed for able bodied people to experience.

Not being able bodied is quite literally adding a spectrum of difficulty levels for people.

I'm not sure I understand what distinction you're making between "designed to be difficult" and "designed to be inaccessible." Can you expand on that?
 
OP
OP

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How does having accessibility, essentially the ability to allow a group of people, ruin that intent?
The game is hostile, from the word go, set in a hostile and unwelcoming world where you're all alone.

I was arguing that the way the game doesn't let you adjust difficulty on the outset is a kind of fourth-wall-breaking hostility from the game itself, in that the game as a piece of software is refusing to accommodate the wishes and needs of the player the same way the game world is hostile to the player character. (e: and perhaps more to the point, this could be seen as subversive precisely because we should expect (almost if not) all games to be accessible.)

Clearly none of this is directly intended to pertain to people with disabilities. I called Dark Souls' treatment of the issue inaccessible because I recognize that From's creative decisions in this regard do lead to an inaccessible game, and frankly to me the only aspect of this debate that matters is whether or not such a game despite being inaccessible to people with disabilities, says something worthwhile by being deliberately inaccessible (in varying degrees) to all.

As no other medium is interactive to the degree games are, being inaccessible to make a point is something only a game can do. But being inaccessible and thereby making a point also (disproportionately) pushes away people with disabilities, hence the tension I've tried to acknowledge.
 

Coi

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I've finished all Souls and Bloodborne at least 10-20 times to try new strategies, builds and PVP, and the only time that my girlfriend's sits with me to watch me play it's when I play Bloodborne. "I love this game so much, the world, the characters, the story, everything. Sadly it's so hard for me that ill never gonna enjoy it" she's says everytime.
I can feel her, and a lot of gamers who stay away from FROM games because of difficulty.
Now about Sekiro, at least for me it's a dumb game, with a difficulty setting that feels cheap and exaggerated in almost every battle. I'm not asking for easy mode or anything, but maybe they should give more options like Souls and summonings or builds.
 

Sleepwalker

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Oct 29, 2017
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Honestly, every time I see this discussion pop up I'm reminded of Pathologic 2, a game notoriously designed to basically give you a really, really bad time since it serves the story and the experience it wants to provide. However, the developers actually put in a ton of difficulty sliders to make the experience more accessible for those who wouldn't get to experience the game otherwise. When you go to the difficulty menu, the game will mention that it is intended to be a really punishing experience, but hey, the more people play the game, the better.

So I think that the approach Pathologic 2 took is pretty good. Let the players know what's the default difficulty the game was designed around, but don't restrict them to it.
 

Chaos2Frozen

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I always thought the idea that "no difficulty options means everyone will have the same experience overcoming the same challenges" so obviously inherently flawed

Unless there's some kind of dynamic difficulty adjustment, different people with different skill levels are going to experience the game differently.
 
OP
OP

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Honestly, every time I see this discussion pop up I'm reminded of Pathologic 2, a game notoriously designed to basically give you a really, really bad time since it serves the story and the experience it wants to provide. However, the developers actually put in a ton of difficulty sliders to make the experience more accessible for those who wouldn't get to experience the game otherwise. When you go to the difficulty menu, the game will mention that it is intended to be a really punishing experience, but hey, the more people play the game, the better.

So I think that the approach Pathologic 2 took is pretty good. Let the players know what's the default difficulty the game was designed around, but don't restrict them to it.
Yeah, this is a perfectly valid approach to take.

I always thought the idea that "no difficulty options means everyone will have the same experience overcoming the same challenges" so obviously inherently flawed
I am personally unsure if it needs to appeal to everyone in the first place. Can't it just appeal to people who do like the difficulty? Should we expect all games to appeal to as many people as possible (save for questions around disability)?

Because you're right in that such a game will never appeal to everyone.
 

exofrenon

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It is a long post OP, I will read it later but based only on the thread title, I will say this:

Dark souls is one of the most cohesively designed games out there in the history of video games. It is not only the difficulty of the game. Every single component of the game requires effort and commitment. All of these separate components come together to form a whole greater than the sum of its parts. Let me explain.

  • The story itself is intricate and it is not simply given to you through cutscenes, it needs effort to understand it, to read into item descriptions, make your own assumptions, maybe even search online.
  • The game does not give you a map, you need to memorize everything. No quest logs or journals, no waypoints.
  • Tutorials are pretty much non existent, you have to understand everything by yourself.
  • The world is not your happy go-to medieval fantasy with elves and dragons. It is filled with misery and pessimism, not only the scenery but the NPCs as well.
  • etc.

If you put all these together but then change the combat to be easier and more approachable (which I guess is what people mean with an "easy mode") wouldn't really fit with the rest of the game, you know? They could make it more approachable but still difficult, something like Devil May Cry with flashy moves and such, but it wouldn't really be consistent with everything else. It would be like that insanely difficult Winnie the Pooh baseball game, which makes 0 sense whatsoever.

Therefore, yes, I also believe inaccessibility is part of the game, a consequence of requiring effort and commitment from its players, which in the end brings a lot of fulfilment when you achieve anything. The game is what it is, you can't take away anything from it and still be the same.
 

FF Seraphim

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How does having accessibility, essentially the ability to allow a group of people, ruin that intent?

Im thinking there has to be a way to make the game accessible to non-able body people that still keeps the difficulty of the game's intent.
Of course the easiest way would be to lower the enemy combat prowess.
However, what about just simply changing the enemies reaction speed? Keep them deadly but easier to predict?
 
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Im thinking there has to be a way to make the game accessible to non-able body people that still keeps the difficulty of the game's intent.
Of course the easiest way would be to lower the enemy combat prowess.
However, what about just simply changing the enemies reaction speed? Keep them deadly but easier to predict?
It runs into the same problem I talked about, in that the difficulty *would* be still there after any kind of accessibility option for those who want difficulty, but that the context around there being only one difficulty you have to adapt to would be gone.
 

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Im thinking there has to be a way to make the game accessible to non-able body people that still keeps the difficulty of the game's intent.
Of course the easiest way would be to lower the enemy combat prowess.
However, what about just simply changing the enemies reaction speed? Keep them deadly but easier to predict?

There's an entire list of things that could be added to games that would immensely help anyone who is not able bodied.

Game accessibility guidelines | Full list


While that list is very very very extensive and most games don't even nail a quarter of those options, you'd have to imagine a world where those options are implemented, and then how the game can keep its intent of struggle while allowing people who would have NEVER been able to play in the first place the ability to experience that developer's intent of how their game should be experienced.
 

SoulsHunt

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Maybe you did. You think I'm the only one that played DS cooperatively? To me not using summoning would be like not using the leaf power up in Super Mario Brothers 3 just to prove how good you are at the game. And you know what. It probably does in some way make you "better" at it, but you're also missing out on a huge part of what makes the game amazing.
Coop is just here to help people. That's a fact. I don't see what I'm missing in summoning 3 dudes and roll on the game. I didn't missed anything, as I played a lot of coop and PvP for oaths. People that 4v1 bosses like Gael are missing something.
 
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Again, you are thinking of it like this

difficulty = accessibility

They are not the same thing.
How would it not be easier for anyone able-bodied who did use the accessibility options? Because given the amount of people who want to play these games on easier modes, people would use the accessibility options even if they didn't need them to be able to play the game.

(and obviously trying to gate who uses the accessibility options is a terrible idea)
 

fontguy

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Your game can be difficult.
Your game can be accessible.

These two things can exist at the same time.

We can agree on that, yes?
I guess. But I can't tell if I share your definitions these words, so I'm hoping you can clarify. Can you give me an example of something in Dark Souls, Bloodborne, etc. that is unrelated to its difficulty but is making it inaccessible? Or maybe a specific change you'd like to see?

Just to be clear, I think I ultimately come down on the "try to be as inclusive as possible" side of this argument.
 

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I can agree with the argument that difficulty and accessibility aren't the same thing and that Fromsoft games in particular can do a lot more to help people who are not able bodied to be able to better engage with their titles. In which I don't believe difficulty options meaningfully address.
 

Chaos2Frozen

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I am personally unsure if it needs to appeal to everyone in the first place. Can't it just appeal to people who do like the difficulty? Should we expect all games to appeal to as many people as possible (save for questions around disability)?

Because you're right in that such a game will never appeal to everyone.

My point was that one of the common justification used by the fanbase for not having any Difficulty options is the idea that everyone would share equal experiences. I think this is inherently flawed by virtue of everyone not having the same skill level.
 

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My point was that one of the common justification used by the fanbase for not having any Difficulty options is the idea that everyone would share equal experiences. I think this is inherently flawed by virtue of everyone not having the same skill level.
That's kind of missing the point. Not everybody has the same skill level at anything in life, period. But at the end of the day if you go on to a race track and every body starts at the same starting line then it's about as close as everyone having the same "experience" you can get. Everything after that starting gun is going to be up to you to overcome and whether or not you win the race is going to be a matter of how much you want it and how much time, effort and preparation you put into it.
 

Chaos2Frozen

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Im thinking there has to be a way to make the game accessible to non-able body people that still keeps the difficulty of the game's intent.
Of course the easiest way would be to lower the enemy combat prowess.
However, what about just simply changing the enemies reaction speed? Keep them deadly but easier to predict?

Imo if you just have to change one thing. it's making them less aggressive. Reduce the rate of attacks.

If you can do two things, then the second one is reduce their damage.

Don't touch enemy health or moveset
 

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How would it not be easier for anyone able-bodied who did use the accessibility options? Because given the amount of people who want to play these games on easier modes, people would use the accessibility options even if they didn't need them to be able to play the game.

So we just leave accessibility options out of the game because the target audience might use them?
 

Chaos2Frozen

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That's kind of missing the point. Not everybody has the same skill level at anything in life, period. But at the end of the day if you go on to a race track and every body starts at the same starting line then it's about as close as everyone having the same "experience" you can get. Everything after that starting gun is going to be up to you to overcome and whether or not you win the race is going to be a matter of how much you want it and how much time, effort and preparation you put into it.

By that definition, Everyone that starts any game would have the same experience because we all begin at the same starting point.

Making that statement useless.
 

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I guess. But I can't tell if I share your definitions these words, so I'm hoping you can clarify. Can you give me an example of something in Dark Souls, Bloodborne, etc. that is unrelated to its difficulty but is making it inaccessible? Or maybe a specific change you'd like to see?

Just to be clear, I think I ultimately come down on the "try to be as inclusive as possible" side of this argument.

Basic
Simple considerations or design decisions that apply to most game mechanics. Not every guideline will apply to your game, but those that do will benefit large numbers of gamers, and are easy to implement if thought about early enough.
If you're looking for a few quick ideas of what to get started with, the four most commonly complained about accessibility issues (source) are remapping, text size, colorblindness, and subtitle presentation. If you can address those, you'll make a significant different to a large number of players.
Motor
(Control / mobility)
Cognitive
(Thought / memory / processing information)
Vision
Hearing
Speech
General

A list of basic things. One right off the bat that I see that could be included sekiro is the ability to resize indicators when executing an opponent. Doesn't change the difficulty and allows someone with poor vision can still understand what is needed.
 

Acetown

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Another thing that would help would be making certain things less obtuse, even game to game the method of "reviving" is different; DaS you revive by consuming humanity but in DaS2 you do it by burning a human effigy at a bonfire. Demons had multiple ways like beat a phantom or boss or use a stone of ephemeral eyes and BB has no "dead" form to begin with. Don't know about 3 or Sekiro but I imagine they also have somewhat different methods of doing things. It certainly doesn't make them more accessible by doing things this way.
You didn't need to burn human effigies, just use them. And hollowing in Dark Souls II depletes your maximum health, which will be obvious since you start off human, making the whole mechanic a lot harder to overlook.
Personally I don't have a problem with the obtuseness of From Software's games though, I like it. I found it was pretty cool to discover that there was an entire dimension to Dark Souls 1 that I'd completely overlooked the first time I played it.
 
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My point was that one of the common justification used by the fanbase for not having any Difficulty options is the idea that everyone would share equal experiences. I think this is inherently flawed by virtue of everyone not having the same skill level.
Yeah, my idea isn't that everyone has to have the same level of skill or the same experience. I don't think this kind of game can reach everyone, and I'm not sure if it has to be just because other parts of the game are also worthwhile.

So we just leave accessibility options out of the game because the target audience might use them?
I think we can agree that people with disabilities who can't play the game as-is and people who just don't want to play a hard game are not the exact same group of people, and to me yeah, only the former would/should be the target audience.