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I think Dead Cells is Boring. Let's Discuss...
- Thread starter Alek
- Start date
Games like Enter the Gungeon and Isaac are definitely more varied and unpredictable each playthrough. I think part of the reason I love Dead Cells so much is its relative consistency between runs compared to most roguelites. I'm not a big fan of the genre, so it makes complete sense why this aspect of the experience would be a big turnoff to those who really gravitate towards this style of game.
Oh, shit.
Well said, that could be why Dead Cells sticks with me so much more than any other roguelite.
I agree. It got boring quick for me. I don't like the progression, although I've seen worse. There's a couple of neat things to unlock at first but it quickly became a grind to get what seemed to be good. I'm still waiting for a roguelite that does progression as fairly as Rogue Legacy.
I don't like the fact that you need to replay bosses and I especially don't like the fact that you can't pick up fallen cells.
They are doing a patch and I will dip back in but I'm not holding my breath.
I don't like the fact that you need to replay bosses and I especially don't like the fact that you can't pick up fallen cells.
They are doing a patch and I will dip back in but I'm not holding my breath.
The patch probably won't change your opinion. It doesn't really change the core progression, outside of timed doors being handled differently and some new, optional challenge rooms.
Are you fucking serious!? That was the one tool that makes the fight bearable. That final boss quite honestly ruins the entire game imo. Thank goodness you only need to beat him 4 times to 100% the game. Most over tuned difficulty spike this year. Why the hell would they want to make it even harder?
Probably not then. Shame too, because it plays great. Just can't be bothered to play the same three levels over and over again.
It's really dumb. The new patch makes the game slightly harder in general, but most of the changes make sense. Buffing the final boss is a horrible decision though.
I can't agree with the devs on this one. Granted I don't plan on playing the game again as I did plenty when it came out, but that's a bad move. I feel for future players hitting that wall :(
Why is the OP wrong? The OP took the time to list down his points of contention so perhaps you should show some semblance of courtesy and do the same.
I played a ton of the game non stop. I was pretty addicted to it. Then I just kind of stopped.
I agree with a lot of people, there's no reason to play the first few stages again. You're base stats and tools make it so that reckless play is fine, even encouraged with timed doors. There's also very little sense of progression in the game. How you play at the beginning is VERY similar to how you play at the end. And this would be fine if the game wasn't a rogue like IMO. The core combat system is very good, maybe too good if that makes sense. As is, I never felt the "loop" that I felt in games like Death Road (which is arguabley even more samey and repetitious than this game so what do I know).
I agree with a lot of people, there's no reason to play the first few stages again. You're base stats and tools make it so that reckless play is fine, even encouraged with timed doors. There's also very little sense of progression in the game. How you play at the beginning is VERY similar to how you play at the end. And this would be fine if the game wasn't a rogue like IMO. The core combat system is very good, maybe too good if that makes sense. As is, I never felt the "loop" that I felt in games like Death Road (which is arguabley even more samey and repetitious than this game so what do I know).
This is one of the major problems with fake rogue-likes. In a true rogue-like system, the early part of the game is vital because it's where all of your character progression comes from, so there is pressure to not just complete it but do so in an optimal way that sets you up for success in the rest of the run.
Permanent progression fucks it up because your character is already upgraded, so the difficulty curve is out of wack, and it doesn't really matter how well you do as long as you make it through to the later stages where the real game begins. A genre that traditionally has very little grind becomes mostly grind.
Permanent progression fucks it up because your character is already upgraded, so the difficulty curve is out of wack, and it doesn't really matter how well you do as long as you make it through to the later stages where the real game begins. A genre that traditionally has very little grind becomes mostly grind.
They're put in between levels now, and they also added a door for killing X number of enemies without being hit in a level. Also for like the Black Bridge Boss you get a bonus door if you defeat him without being hit.
i feel like those criticisms pretty much apply to all roguelikes, even the ones you listed.... you go through the loop, find the groove in progression and then at some point it's like "fuck this".
caveat with Dead Cells is it's a very well made game but after 3 or 4 levels you got your money's worth and that's kinda that, if you want to push forward it's up to yuou
caveat with Dead Cells is it's a very well made game but after 3 or 4 levels you got your money's worth and that's kinda that, if you want to push forward it's up to yuou
Dead Cells was one of my favorite games this year but I see where you are coming from to an extent. The first four to five stages offer very little challenge once you have unlocked more weapons that let you attack enemies on different levels. Enemies essentially are unable to retaliate against you while you remain in a safe position. That only changes in the castle, where suddenly it's the enemies who are able to reach you while they remain safe. Between those two extremes, there's not much of a gradient in difficulty.
I think you might be under the wrong assumption (and it might be the game's fault for not making it clear enough) that what you do in the first levels doesn't matter in the long run. It's very important to get as many scrolls as possible: you do that by opening the timed doors and by finding the scrolls scattered across the levels within this time limit. It's crucial if you want to survive the endgame, and even after completing some of the harder difficulties, it's still quite challenging for me. You are also constantly making important decisions like: which weapons should I use? Which stats should I invest in? Should I rush to the next timed door or do I have enough time to explore a little more? I find it constantly engaging.
About the upgrades: true, the ones you mentioned don't affect the gameplay in a meaningful way, but most of the others do, like the weapons and the mutations. They offer a variety of different playstyles.
About death: you do lose everything. But on the flip side you get to keep the permanent progress that you made during the run; most notably, the upgrades that you can purchase with cells. The key to beating harder difficulties is to permanently increase the chance of finding high level weapons, which is achieved with the furnace found after defeating a boss. This also contributes to the game's intensity because when you have a lot of cells you can't afford to die before the boss.
I played quite a few games like Dead Cells and Enter the Gungeon by now, and even though I loved Gungeon, Dead Cells is the one that kept me engaged for the longest time.
About the upgrades: true, the ones you mentioned don't affect the gameplay in a meaningful way, but most of the others do, like the weapons and the mutations. They offer a variety of different playstyles.
About death: you do lose everything. But on the flip side you get to keep the permanent progress that you made during the run; most notably, the upgrades that you can purchase with cells. The key to beating harder difficulties is to permanently increase the chance of finding high level weapons, which is achieved with the furnace found after defeating a boss. This also contributes to the game's intensity because when you have a lot of cells you can't afford to die before the boss.
I played quite a few games like Dead Cells and Enter the Gungeon by now, and even though I loved Gungeon, Dead Cells is the one that kept me engaged for the longest time.
Note that even if you agree with OP on Dead Cells, they also praised other games in the same genre. Maybe Dead Cells isn't the one for you, but others can be.
The lack of real progression killed it quick for me. Love the way it plays, looks and feels.... the rest made me turn off.
Maybe my most disappointing game of the year.
Maybe my most disappointing game of the year.
OP
OP
Thanks for the insightful response. You're right in that the early stages do matter, I wasn't intending to dispute that. It's just that I found them repetitive. In general I found it easier just to kill everything, and get the upgrades. If I found one or two upgrades early, then I might try to race to the timed door, but it's still pretty repetitive, and with only three enemy types I found it became sterile.
I understand that the other upgrades are worthwhile, and they're not too expensive too which is nice. It's just a shame that you spend such a large quantity of cells on the less interesting upgrades. A cool upgrade costs 50 cells, but a boring health upgrade costs 600... I think the game would benefit if those health upgrades (and similar) were rewarded in a different way.
I think Dead Cells is a joy to play, but I dislike how long the runs take. I actually feel like the game would work better as a rouge-like and not a rouge-light. I don't like how long the upgrades take. It feels like I have to grind things out to get gear good enough to progress, and getting back to where you died can take a while. I feel like if the random drops in the game and your base stats were good enough to take you all the way through and it was more about the gameplay and less grinding upgrades I would enjoy it more.
OP
OP
In Issac, Gungeon, and Spelunky the source of challenge tends to be much more distinct per run. Making those important decisions more difficult, as they change with every run. The decision you have in Dead Cells is always 'go fast or go slow', and the stage design and enemies don't really add anything more to that.
Spelunky: event levels randomly spawn at each stage, which significantly change how the floor is structured. So you might suddenly get a snake pit level, or a darkness level within the mines.
Gungeon: incredible enemy variety, with 10-20 different enemy TYPES present on each floor, and three different potential bosses per floor.
Issac: absurd item / synergy variety, decent enemy variety, special rooms and random bosses make the early floors different.
I'm not saying that this makes Dead Cells worse, I'm saying that it made it feel more repetitive for me.
I feel pretty much the same, but coming from the opposite end of the skill spectrum. Got tired of spending 15 minutes on each run to the first boss and gave up.
I played it a fair bit when it came out, but the final boss became too frustrating to bother fighting. I think I made it to him seven or eight times and could barely take off a third of his health before I was wrecked.
I like hard games, but I think I weighed up the time commitment I'd need to get good enough to beat him and made the judgement it wasn't worth it.
I like hard games, but I think I weighed up the time commitment I'd need to get good enough to beat him and made the judgement it wasn't worth it.
OP
OP
I struggled with the first boss a few times, I think he's easy now but not at first. Even now, I think he's damage aura is cheap and punishes certain builds far more than any other. He's a joke against tactics builds.
Agreed. I'm finding I don't like rogue-like games similar to this. Enter the Gungeon and Into the Breach didn't click with me either. There was no rewarding progression system. Outside of just getting better, the "upgrades" were just tacked on.
Strangely enough, I did like Binding of Isaac, though...
Strangely enough, I did like Binding of Isaac, though...
I still occasionally die in levels 2 and 3 (especially if I go with the optional harder ones) but apart from that I completely agree with OP. I've enjoyed the game enough to put at least 25 hours into it but now I reached a point where I'm tapped out and not planning on picking it up again, there isn't enough variety to keep me going. The game doesn't offer enough incentive to unlock new weapons rather than spending everything into the permanent upgrades, and even then there aren't enough of them to choose from.
Another complaint I have is that the Elite enemies are poorly designed difficulty spikes. They're like regular enemies but hit faster and harder. That's all there is to them. They don't make the game more fun, they just potentially ruin an otherwise good run if you happen to be slightly not OP enough to cheaply kill them before they cheaply kill you. And if you happen to be losing by the time half their health is gone, the game penalizes you by giving it teleporting abilities, as if to tell you "fuck you for having tried". So many of my runs were ruined by that shit design, ugh.
Another complaint I have is that the Elite enemies are poorly designed difficulty spikes. They're like regular enemies but hit faster and harder. That's all there is to them. They don't make the game more fun, they just potentially ruin an otherwise good run if you happen to be slightly not OP enough to cheaply kill them before they cheaply kill you. And if you happen to be losing by the time half their health is gone, the game penalizes you by giving it teleporting abilities, as if to tell you "fuck you for having tried". So many of my runs were ruined by that shit design, ugh.
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Good post and I do completely agree with you op.
To be completely honest, I'm surprised Dead Cells received a lot of accolades and critical acclaim considering its short comings. It's as if the people who gave it 9/10s or voted for it in a lot of the GOTY awards didn't complete the game and only played it for a little bit. Dead Cells is extremely awesome for the first few hours because the game play is by far the strongest aspect. I personally play a lot of rouge likes / rouge lites, and those you mentioned are head and shoulders better experiences than Dead Cells considering what genre they fall under. Had Dead Cells been a complete Metroidvania experience instead of a rouge like I think it would've been better off. The rouge like elements aren't good enough to carry it.
I'm not really a fan of patches that make the game harder and nerf items in singleplayer. That happening for The Binding of Isaac: Afterbirth was what made me drop the game.
It's rough because the core combat is great but everything beyond it is simple or limited. Every enemy encounter feels the same and the bosses quickly fall apart because they have such limited attack patterns. Compared to something like Isaac or Gungeon every run ends up feeling the same, making it hard to keep coming back. I enjoyed my time with it but it feels like an early access title with an excellent vertical slice that hasn't been expanded yet. Fighting the exact same boss over and over again with the exact same pattern, on both the normal runs and dailies, gets old faster than it should
I feel like I hear this response quite often in regards to Dead Cells. "It's not a good rogue like but could've been a good Metroidvania." As someone who doesn't play a lot of rogue likes or Metroidvania's but thoroughly enjoyed Dead Cells what elements do you think could've helped Dead Cells with your perceived identity crisis?
Your criticism of the first three levels is completely valid. I was thinking there would be a way to skip those once you beat the first boss but no such luck. 1st three levels have morphed into farming for upgrades for the rest of the game, and/or if you care to to so, a fun little time trial. but they are monotonous once you've put time into the game.
Something in addition to a lot of what people have already said, the playable character and npcs just kinda suck. I haven't played many roguelike but I absolutely adored Enter the Gungeon and its characters. Gungeon also gave you objectives in each stage to incentivize more runs for true endings. The main character in Dead Cells is just a bunch of meme references and the NPCs are just sort of there. I'm also somewhat surprised by the critical reception, but perhaps reviewers weren't taking in the genre into consideration as much as other aspects.
I own it on two platforms, I think it is incredibly well-made and mechanically very satisfying, and yet weirdly I just have no desire to actually play it. I see the long grind for cells ahead of me and I just think, "Yeah, I'm not gonna do that." Maybe I'll just use Cheat Engine on the PC version and give myself all unlocks then give it a go.
Variety mostly. Dead Cells simply doesn't offer enough of it for extended runs. All the different weapons are fun to play with, as well as unlocking the other abilities which grant alternate paths. Both of these aspects are great for Metroidvanias too. If Dead Cells had more content I think the devs could've designed it as one large play area in order to craft a nice Metroidvania experience. As it stands right now, unfortunately the areas aren't procedurally generated well enough to keep from becoming repetitive.
OP
OP
I think there's an update coming which will let you play around and tweak things yourself.
I played 332 hours of Dead Cells, the last time I played was about 2 months ago maybe I don't remember. I love the game I only stopped playng cause I wanted to play other games and also cause It's kinda hard to beat the final boss with 3 Stem Cells.
Stem Cells change a lot how to play the game after you got them, I think OP gave up too early or maybe he don't like grinding games.
Stem Cells change a lot how to play the game after you got them, I think OP gave up too early or maybe he don't like grinding games.
I mainly use the first three levels to get into the groove. The levels aren't hard but if you go for the timed doors they're fun enough. You have to quickly consider what to fight and how. I guess if you just cleared the entire level every time killing all the enemies it would eventually become a chore. You don't really miss out rushing through the first few levels. The timed doors compensate you well enough.
I agree that the first two bosses are push-overs but they're a good way to gauge whether your kit will be viable at the end. If they don't die within a minute, you're not gonna get much further.
If you just dump all your cells into flask upgrades then, yeah, it would feel like you gained nothing. You don't really need the flask charges though. Having two charges is more than enough. Unlocking new weapons (and having randomized starter items) is much better and will make the game feel more varied and interesting. You get more and more weapons and traps to synergize and build around.
Also, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the first three levels" because there are – I think – six areas to go to as your first three. You can mix it up if you get bored.
I agree that the first two bosses are push-overs but they're a good way to gauge whether your kit will be viable at the end. If they don't die within a minute, you're not gonna get much further.
If you just dump all your cells into flask upgrades then, yeah, it would feel like you gained nothing. You don't really need the flask charges though. Having two charges is more than enough. Unlocking new weapons (and having randomized starter items) is much better and will make the game feel more varied and interesting. You get more and more weapons and traps to synergize and build around.
Also, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the first three levels" because there are – I think – six areas to go to as your first three. You can mix it up if you get bored.
I feel the same way. When I discovered that there were only 4 bosses total it killed the momentum that it was picking up after I'd grown bored of the combat cycle. It's just too samey, there's not enough variety in weapon build types unless you invest enough hours to farm out the top tier equipment, while in something like Gungeon or Isaac or Nuclear Throne you get the zany and interesting synergies right from the start, it allows you to think more creatively and outside the box while encouraging you to get better at the game. After 2 hours of playing I never felt challenged again and I killed every boss through trap farming and spamming the retain gold upgrade so I could re-roll rares I got early to synergize with it to cheese. And if I have to spend dozens of hours grinding to finally get variety in your game, you've immediately turned me off.
It stops being fun after a little while when you get the loop figured out. I understand why people would like it, and I bought into the hype it had surrounding it and from my first few hours it was extremely enjoyable, but I've put about 20 into it and I have no desire to put in any more.
It stops being fun after a little while when you get the loop figured out. I understand why people would like it, and I bought into the hype it had surrounding it and from my first few hours it was extremely enjoyable, but I've put about 20 into it and I have no desire to put in any more.
OP
OP
I've not given up, I actually just had another run a minute ago.
It was okay, I had a good time overall. First few stages were a little boring but I enjoyed running around with the firebomb thing. Combat is absolutely the games highlight.
I think at the moment I'm in a position where I really don't want to play because my save was lost. I think starting from scratch on this game is really, really awful. When you first play, the gameplay alone is enough to carry the experience till you unlock more items. But playing from scratch when I'm already very familiar with the game, having to unlock health flasks and play with the most boring items in the entire game. It's just a really bad experience.
I think it's especially annoying that you have to pay 100+ cells to randomise your starting weapon. Players shouldn't have to play the metagame to unlock the fun elements of the game.