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ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,621
One could point to a variety of examples of Blizzard's decline since their Activision merger many moons ago, but I think it's easy to hold up Warcraft III: Reforged as the final sign that Blizzard as we once knew them is well and truly dead. Back when the Reforged debacle was initially playing out, I made a thread polling people here on how they felt about it. These were the results:

aVI9AZf.png


Since then the game appears to have hardly been improved, and any hope of them fixing most of the game's most glaring issues and/or feature regressions is essentially lost. Blizzard has since fired the Classic Games Team, and most of the key talent from within the company has seen a mass exodus to either join or start other studios. Without a doubt WC3: Reforged was the final straw for this once-great company, both in my eyes and I'm sure in the eyes of many of you.

The game still holds the lowest-ever Metacritic User score, and while oftentimes I'd give little to no credence to user scores this is a case where it's completely valid. This wasn't review bombing. That's legitimately how tens of thousands of people felt about the quality of the game.



This video did a good job summarizing the game's most glaring issues shortly after its disastrous release.

As someone who holds the original StarCraft and Brood War very near and dear to my gaming heart, I was ecstatic when SC: Remastered was announced. And while that game got off to a bit of a rocky start too, it was nowhere near as bad as Reforged and eventually got to a place where it is a worthy update/replacement for the original. I am very thankful that I have a good remaster for SC1 that also reignited both the pro scene for the game as well as the Custom Maps population on Bnet (to a lesser extent). While I never played much WC3, I fully understood that for a lot of people that game was to them what SC1/Brood War were to me. It was the game that they spent countless hours over years playing custom games with friends late into the night, seeing entire genres spawned from the creations of fans working within the game's flexible editor. The fact that those fans were not only robbed of a potentially great revival but also lost the original client and tons of features with it is just heartbreaking.

sc-remastered.jpg

Playing SC1 in 4K with an active online community in 2021 is amazing. WC3 fans should've been able to say the same.

And that's really my only goal with this thread. To express condolences to those of you who were hoping that WC3:R would revitalize an all-time classic game but instead saw it be destroyed by a callously neglectful version of the company that birthed it. Nobody should forget WC3:R. It is, in my view, still the most egregious "fuck you" to a passionate fanbase I've ever seen within the realm of gaming. It's the only bad remaster in history that actually killed the original game. Unforgivable.

If you were out of the loop on the whole Reforged saga when it happened, here is a decent rundown of the debacle:

 

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,490
I play this game a few times per week and it really saddens me how all of this has turned out. I feel bad for the developers and the community. Happy to see how the fans who love the game have improved the game. W3Champsions is a very impressive community effort which is still growing.

The community back there has built:
- A functioning ladder and matchmaking system
- Better ping for players by moving away from Blizzard servers
- Implemented clans

W3Champions

Wish these people would get some support from Blizzard, but it has been a complete radio silence from Blizzard's side since their last two blog posts talking about new features coming to the game back in summer 2020.

July 2020: Warcraft III: Reforged Developer Update – Ranked Play — Warcraft III: Reforged — Blizzard News
August 2020: Revisiting the Warcraft III Editor — Warcraft III: Reforged — Blizzard News

Since then there have been no updates on adding a ladder, clans, tournaments, custom campaigns, better ping/cross-region play or an improved menu. It's really sad and it hurts me as a lifelong fan.
 

Adrifi

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jan 5, 2019
3,466
the Spanish Basque Country
It really isn't talked about enough. It's not just making a bad remake, it's also partially destroying what made the original game a great game. Shameful.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
The fact that they replaced the client with LESS FEATURES and forced everyone to "upgrade" to it is indefensible.
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
18,023
It boggles the mind. They had a perfect template with SC remastered- a visual touch-up, cross compatible with original, but keeping the OG intact (they actually gave it away for free back then).

And then instead of just copying that and basking in unmitigated success and adulation, they decided to break a 17-year old game, while giving nothing worthwhile in return.


Just... how? Why would you make single-player progress need an online connection? The game worked FINE for 17 years without this.
Just... no.


WarCraft III was that game for me. I spent our designated "computer time" in highschool on fan sites following its development (this was back when dial-up was still a thing).
It feels so wrong to have this... mutilated for absolutely no good reason.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
people can be justifiably angry still if they want but me, well, i just expect it from blizzard at this point. they actively loathe the fanbases of their old titles while simultaneously courting them. this is just how they are and they will never change
 

DanteMenethil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,058
What really, really blows my mind and I still can't quite understand is that they explicitly told in interviews prior to the launch that Reforged was using the same engine underneath instead of something more modern for one big reason : to not let the old client in the dust, so that both versions can play with each other in crossplay. With that in mind, why the fuck did they block users from using the old client and killed it off on release day?


I wouldn't have believed you years ago that goddamn EA of all thing would have treated Command & Conquer better than Blizzard's Warcraft 3. Even microsoft has done amazing preserving Age of Empires 1/2/3.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,212
Greater Vancouver
W3 is one of the best fucking games of its kind, one of the coolest campaigns, and one of the most deeply important games to my childhood.

And they royally fucked it up.
 

y2kyle89

Member
Mar 16, 2018
9,506
Mass
I was really looking forward to replaying Warcraft 3 with the new bells and whistles and now I can't even play the old version.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
The fact that they replaced the client with LESS FEATURES and forced everyone to "upgrade" to it is indefensible.
I have an original WarCraft 3 boxset I never got around to opening due to certain factors, and it really is insane that I can't really play THAT VERSION of the game.

Like, not only is the new version vastly inferior, but the audacity to nuke the original version people loved from existence is beyond the pale.
 

Thekeats

Member
Nov 1, 2017
651
I think what makes it even worse is when you look at the treatment that Command & Conquer Remastered got and that released about 6 months later. For a fraction of the cost and from EA of all people.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,081
Yeah, it's bad. I'm a C&C guy myself, so juxtaposing the quality of the C&C Collection released last year to the trash fire that was Reforged really shows how much Reforged could have gone had the people who made it were given real ressources for it.
 
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ScOULaris

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,621
I have an original WarCraft 3 boxset I never got around to opening due to certain factors, and it really is insane that I can't really play THAT VERSION of the game.

Like, not only is the new version vastly inferior, but the audacity to nuke the original version people loved from existence is beyond the pale.
I feel like they should just revert everything and reinstate the original version at this point, no? Like, is there a single aspect of Reforged that's a worthwhile improvement? If not, just shoot that shit into the sun and bring the old client back as it was.
 

Gunny T Highway

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,023
Canada
I think what makes it even worse is when you look at the treatment that Command & Conquer Remastered got and that released about 6 months later. For a fraction of the cost and from EA of all people.
This and they even got the some of the original designers to help and Frank Klepacki back to do new music. As a avid C&C fan the remastered collection was a real treat.
 

elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,815
What really, really blows my mind and I still can't quite understand is that they explicitly told in interviews prior to the launch that Reforged was using the same engine underneath instead of something more modern for one big reason : to not let the old client in the dust, so that both versions can play with each other in crossplay. With that in mind, why the fuck did they block users from using the old client and killed it off on release day?

It appears they must have ran into some severe issues with that. It was a noble goal, but I am of the belief that they should have not restricted themselves and how much they can do by making sure the new version is 1:1 compatible wih the old one.

They had the same approach with Starcraft 1, but were able to successfully achieve their goal with that one.
 

Mentalist

Member
Mar 14, 2019
18,023
I have an original WarCraft 3 boxset I never got around to opening due to certain factors, and it really is insane that I can't really play THAT VERSION of the game.

Like, not only is the new version vastly inferior, but the audacity to nuke the original version people loved from existence is beyond the pale.
I mean, you can.
As long as you install it on PC that's not connected to the Internet
 

Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,781
Its appalling how bad WC3R is. You can tell an out of touch suit was the one behind most of the bad decisions.
 

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,490
It appears they must have ran into some severe issues with that. It was a noble goal, but I am of the belief that they should have not restricted themselves and how much they can do by making sure the new version is 1:1 compatible wih the old one.

They had the same approach with Starcraft 1, but were able to successfully achieve their goal with that one.

I am of the opinion that if they had moved away from the Warcraft 3 'classic' engine and gameplay they would've completely killed the community. Especially with destroying the old game.

The game is still alive and doing fairly well due to the old community picking up the shards and putting something reasonable together. They've now built a ladder system, cross-region play and are now working on bringing ladder play for custom built maps and tournaments to the game.
 

Deleted member 8468

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,109
The Blizzard that made original War3 is dead. Shame, but it is true. No hate towards the folk that work there now, but it's part a different machine and we shouldn't think of them as the same house anymore.

It's easy to blame Activision, but I think time has as much to do with it as anything. Folks left, started new studios, got out of games, etc.
 

elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,815
I am of the opinion that if they had moved away from the Warcraft 3 'classic' engine and gameplay they would've completely killed the community. Especially with destroying the old game.

The game is still alive and doing fairly well due to the old community picking up the shards and putting something reasonable together. They've now built a ladder system, cross-region play and are now working on bringing ladder play for custom built maps and tournaments to the game.

Perhaps they could have developed a data upgrade system / tool, similar to how Halo did with MCC. But I am not familiar with what the scope of that would be to suggest it as a viable option.
 

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,490
It defeats the purpose of playing online with my friends though. They force you to upgrade if you want to play a match. I think the new version doesn't even have proper LAN support.

They have added LAN support post-launch. Haven't tried it yet though. Support for it was added after during a big eSports game players kept disconnecting from the game because

1) players had to use the Reforged graphics set, creating issues
2) they had to connect to the internet during a DreamHack event
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
They have added LAN support post-launch. Haven't tried it yet though. Support for it was added after during a big eSports game players kept disconnecting from the game because

1) players had to use the Reforged graphics set, creating issues
2) they had to connect to the internet during a DreamHack event
If you connect online though for an online match (I'm no longer in high school or college where we could easily do LAN parties...), then there's currently no accessible way to play the original game online with friends, correct?
 
Oct 29, 2017
7,500
I'm not invested in Warcraft specifically but this situation makes my blood boil just as someone interested in BC, retro games, and preservation. Issues with the remaster itself aside, to interfere so destructively with the original game is outrageous.
 

HypedBulborb

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,921
Same... It makes me so fucking mad thinking about, makes me not want to support Blizzard anymore at all.

Luckily I got a refund for it.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,373
The fact that the remake was not only bad in and of itself but retroactively broke the original version of the game so that you can't play it like it used to be is infuriating.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
I have an original WarCraft 3 boxset I never got around to opening due to certain factors, and it really is insane that I can't really play THAT VERSION of the game.

Like, not only is the new version vastly inferior, but the audacity to nuke the original version people loved from existence is beyond the pale.
Actually, you can play the game with the original client. And you can also find patch 1.27b in PCGamingwiki that doesn't force you to use Battle.net to play the game.

Back on topic, Warcraft 3 is probably one of my most played game. Even though it has been years since I last played online, seeing what ActiBlizz did still angers me. What a disgrace. And to think that I wanted to work there when I was a kid.
 
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ScOULaris

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,621
I'm not invested in Warcraft specifically but this situation makes my blood boil just as someone interested in BC, retro games, and preservation. Issues with the remaster itself aside, to interfere so destructively with the original game is outrageous.
Yeah, that's how I feel as well. I was never into the WC series, but as someone passionate about game preservation (and wanted to finally try WC3 with Reforged) I'm just disturbed and saddened by how it all played out. I just can't believe they'd be okay with replacing the original like that.

Like, it ended up being fine with StarCraft: Remastered because that was actually a good, thorough update to the original game that could replace it without losing much (old mods and like 0.5% of custom maps no longer worked). But with how Reforged turned out I'd almost think that it'd be within reason for Blizzard to just separate it out and then reinstate the old client as it used to be. It might not be worth their time, but it would certainly have helped repairsome of the damage that had been done in the eyes of their fans.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
The Blizzard that made original War3 is dead. Shame, but it is true. No hate towards the folk that work there now, but it's part a different machine and we shouldn't think of them as the same house anymore.

It's easy to blame Activision, but I think time has as much to do with it as anything. Folks left, started new studios, got out of games, etc.
all activision did was hasten things that were already happening. it's like whenever you read about how EA buys a studio and they basically give said studios enough rope to hang themselves with. is it really just the big bad publisher? probably not. they just enhance the worst tendencies of development leadership that were already there.
 
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ScOULaris

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,621
I loved it, after a few patches. I liked the updated visuals.

But I play the old Blizzard games in SP only.

Is this thread MP-only? Should be a bit more clear.
No, the disaster that is Reforged extends to the entire package, singleplayer included.

Many people loathe the updated assets and all of the graphical/animation glitches that came with them, not to mention the weirdly poor performance on even high-end gaming rigs compared to the original. Even if you ignore all of the features removed regarding custom campaigns and online play, the base game is still worse than it was originally.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
I loved it, after a few patches. I liked the updated visuals.

But I play the old Blizzard games in SP only.

Is this thread MP-only? Should be a bit more clear.
You can't play custom campaigns in the current client. Read there is still a way, but only through the map editor.
 

TeenageFBI

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,241
If you still have the original CDs, can you play as is?
Sure, so long as you don't connect the game to the internet. But you'd also be missing out on a bunch of really useful updates that Blizzard pushed out over the years before Reforged ruined everything.

I'm sure there's some kind of fan-produced patch that resolves most of the issues. Haven't really looked into it. I'm still sad about the whole situation.
 

Flygon

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,377
I play this game a few times per week and it really saddens me how all of this has turned out. I feel bad for the developers and the community. Happy to see how the fans who love the game have improved the game. W3Champsions is a very impressive community effort which is still growing.

The community back there has built:
- A functioning ladder and matchmaking system
- Better ping for players by moving away from Blizzard servers
- Implemented clans

W3Champions

Wish these people would get some support from Blizzard, but it has been a complete radio silence from Blizzard's side since their last two blog posts talking about new features coming to the game back in summer 2020.

July 2020: Warcraft III: Reforged Developer Update – Ranked Play — Warcraft III: Reforged — Blizzard News
August 2020: Revisiting the Warcraft III Editor — Warcraft III: Reforged — Blizzard News

Since then there have been no updates on adding a ladder, clans, tournaments, custom campaigns, better ping/cross-region play or an improved menu. It's really sad and it hurts me as a lifelong fan.
Coming from the Age of Empires II community, this is really sad. After the MSN Gaming Zone shut down in the mid-00s, the community wound up being incredibly fragmented across many platforms. And many casual players simply not knowing there was much online play to exist anymore.

It is very sad that this is now happening to the Warcraft III community. I hope that a good end can come someday - but it seems just as likely the community will enter a similar nadir Age of Empires II did for many years, until serious online play boomed back up again - ironically - off the back of the late 2019 re-release.

The Warcraft III community doesn't deserve this - especially since a lot of this is clearly Blizzard being upset at losing that DotA money.
 
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ScOULaris

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,621
The Warcraft III community doesn't deserve this - especially since a lot of this is clearly Blizzard being upset at losing that DotA money.
Oh, and how can I forget the changes to the EULA for the game that give Blizzard full and complete ownership with no accreditation to any and all custom maps made within the WC3 editor. And didn't they add in the bullshit SC2 rule about not allowing anything from outside IP's in custom maps either? Just awful.
 

Leo-Tyrant

Member
Jan 14, 2019
5,091
San Jose, Costa Rica
No, the disaster that is Reforged extends to the entire package, singleplayer included.

Many people loathe the updated assets and all of the graphical/animation glitches that came with them, not to mention the weirdly poor performance on even high-end gaming rigs compared to the original. Even if you ignore all of the features removed regarding custom campaigns and online play, the base game is still worse than it was originally.
You can't play custom campaigns in the current client. Read there is still a way, but only through the map editor.

Thanks for the clarifications.

  • I definitely prefer the updated visuals, and loved my entire play-through with it last year. Was able to relieve my WCIII experience with updated visuals
  • Don´t recall any graphical or animation glitches (I did wait about 6 months before playing, I believe it had several patches at that point)
  • Performance was alright, didn't feel any slowdown
  • Dont particularly care about custom campaigns (never found them as detailed or balanced as the official stuff)

For context: I also loved SC Remastered.

I understand I'm just a subset of the player-types, but the whole thing was great to me. Your complains are all valid but I didnt experience them on my end.
 

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,479
Normally I wouldnt even care but the fact that it actively tries to erase the original is what pisses me off the most.
 

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,490
I loved it, after a few patches. I liked the updated visuals.

But I play the old Blizzard games in SP only.

Is this thread MP-only? Should be a bit more clear.

An example: in old Warcraft 3 players could download custom campaigns that they could play. So the community could build additional campaigns, for example using WoW lore, and those could be put into the game. That feature was completely removed with the remaster.

Edit: ah, now read your remarks on custom campaigns. Never mind then. :)
 

Tomasdk

Banned
Apr 18, 2018
910
Yes, what happened with WC3 is a disgrace. And to imagine Blizz now supposedly makes a Diablo 2 remaster? I'm not sure I want that at this point.
 

CrunchyFrog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,458
It's Lucasfilm Special Edition level fuckery. Dunno if it's the WORST thing to ever happen in gaming, but it ranks up there. I weep for what D2R will look like.
 

VirtualCloud

Member
Aug 3, 2018
775
Please dont remind me. Warcraft 3 is probably the game I would say defined my childhood and I still used to pop into it on the regular to play a few quick matches. I was so damn excited when I first heard about the remaster but man... such an iconic game deserved MUCH better.