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Kain

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
7,595
The Futaba one is even weirder considering what the poor girl had to suffer through before. It would've been way better when you max her S Link you just become close as brother and sister and that's it (pandering to the Onii-chan troupe so at least it keeps some creepy factor for the hardcore fans ©). The one with the teacher is... phew.
 

AbeFroman

Banned
Jan 7, 2020
29
User banned (permanent): inflammatory false equivalence
Perhaps this is an unpopular opinion, but I see nothing wrong with allowing writers to tell the stories they wish to tell. None of the characters in any of the Persona games REQUIRE being romanced.

I was always fond of telling others, "If you don't like gay marriage, don't have one." This is the odd corrolary, where if you don't want to flirt/romance a character, then... don't?

I see nothing wrong with allowing for literary license and think Atlus does a GREAT job of incorporating uncomfortable realities into it's storylines. Guess what, sex workers (Kawakami) are a thing. People can have questions about gender identity (Naoto) and agorophobes (Futaba) need love, too.

My wife and I played the original P5 together and we both connected with Futaba. Different people can see the game/situation differently--which is what makes the choices and options worthwhile. We could use MORE choice, not less.

Censoring stories just because you don't like them is like burning books. Let the storytellers tell their stories.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,394


Oh i'm completely aware, I played the game when it released and I complained about it then too
It's because I played it that I passed so hard on SMT Redux; there's no trust now

I don't remember if it was a tale from someone's ass but I recall reading that a lot of the staff on the newer SMT titles skewed on the younger side who are fans of this kind of stuff

It's such a shame because the underlying battle mechanics are so good
I hope the feedback was enough to course correct SMTV

Edit: Aging the cast up in Persona games only fixes one of the problems mentioned in the thread; everything else is the same. Makes no difference if the writing is the same. All the mentions of a schoolgirl romance for the hypothetical grown male protagonist are right on the money.
 
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Mendrox

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,439
So many people in here have nailed it. This sucks.

And even if they did decide to make P6 star "early 20s" university students, you know they'd include like, some teenage prodigy who's 15 but super smart and super mature, cause they gotta include the senpai stuff.

It's disgusting.

You could already fuck Ken, a kid, in P3 by playing the FeMC.
 

ekka4shiki

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,951
A bunch of kids like the whole cast is? :p

Well, it's not like we can choose to be younger again, so that we become the "ideal" player *shrug

If you're 20-something playing this game, it's basically Catch-22 situation. If you date older woman, it's weird because MC is minor according to the in-game lore. But if you date younger girl, it's weird because actual IRL you already an adult. You kinda lose either way.

I think this is because people self-inserting themselves to MC. But that is gaming all about so it's not exactly wrong. Especially in Role Playing game genre. This problem isn't as apparent in other medium like books/movies because MC isn't you, you're just reader/audience.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,963
Perhaps this is an unpopular opinion, but I see nothing wrong with allowing writers to tell the stories they wish to tell. None of the characters in any of the Persona games REQUIRE being romanced.

I was always fond of telling others, "If you don't like gay marriage, don't have one." This is the odd corrolary, where if you don't want to flirt/romance a character, then... don't?

I see nothing wrong with allowing for literary license and think Atlus does a GREAT job of incorporating uncomfortable realities into it's storylines. Guess what, sex workers (Kawakami) are a thing. People can have questions about gender identity (Naoto) and agorophobes (Futaba) need love, too.

My wife and I played the original P5 together and we both connected with Futaba. Different people can see the game/situation differently--which is what makes the choices and options worthwhile. We could use MORE choice, not less.

Censoring stories just because you don't like them is like burning books. Let the storytellers tell their stories.
This is a fantastic argument to things that nobody has actually said.

There aren't a whole lot of people talking about censoring Persona. They are, however, saying that it's bad, which people are also allowed to do.

While we're here, I'd also like to point out that you immediately jumped to comparing an adult teacher having a romantic relationship with her underage student, a pedophilia issue, to gay marriage.
 
Feb 9, 2019
2,467
Gacha Hell
Being an adult myself and with Joker being such an non-character, I found it easy to ignore the... icky aspects of the social links for adult characters. Kawakami, Ohya, Takemi, can't say any of those bothered me. Sadly, it's a lot harder to tell myself "it's OK, in-game I'm only 16" when awkward stuff happens in SLs with minors, Futaba in particular since I'd argue she looks even younger than she really is.
 

Ramsay

Member
Jul 2, 2019
3,621
Australia
Perhaps this is an unpopular opinion, but I see nothing wrong with allowing writers to tell the stories they wish to tell. None of the characters in any of the Persona games REQUIRE being romanced.

I was always fond of telling others, "If you don't like gay marriage, don't have one." This is the odd corrolary, where if you don't want to flirt/romance a character, then... don't?

I see nothing wrong with allowing for literary license and think Atlus does a GREAT job of incorporating uncomfortable realities into it's storylines. Guess what, sex workers (Kawakami) are a thing. People can have questions about gender identity (Naoto) and agorophobes (Futaba) need love, too.

My wife and I played the original P5 together and we both connected with Futaba. Different people can see the game/situation differently--which is what makes the choices and options worthwhile. We could use MORE choice, not less.

Censoring stories just because you don't like them is like burning books. Let the storytellers tell their stories.
It's not an issue of censorship. It, rather, is an issue of Persona 5's bad writing, in which Atlus' need to pander to otaku is the core source of.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,633
I was shocked at some of the dialog choices between the MC and Kawakami and the way she's portrayed in the game. Heck the OT for P5R here has a subtitle that hints towards that relationship. Its honestly weird af.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,091
UK
Perhaps this is an unpopular opinion, but I see nothing wrong with allowing writers to tell the stories they wish to tell. None of the characters in any of the Persona games REQUIRE being romanced.

I was always fond of telling others, "If you don't like gay marriage, don't have one." This is the odd corrolary, where if you don't want to flirt/romance a character, then... don't?

I see nothing wrong with allowing for literary license and think Atlus does a GREAT job of incorporating uncomfortable realities into it's storylines. Guess what, sex workers (Kawakami) are a thing. People can have questions about gender identity (Naoto) and agorophobes (Futaba) need love, too.

My wife and I played the original P5 together and we both connected with Futaba. Different people can see the game/situation differently--which is what makes the choices and options worthwhile. We could use MORE choice, not less.

Censoring stories just because you don't like them is like burning books. Let the storytellers tell their stories.
So you're fine with statutory rape being depicted as a good thing? The game doesn't make it out to be an uncomfortable reality, it's quite comfortable and encouraged. Why is criticising such harmful things "censorship"? Would you be ok with paedophilic relationships?
 

Deleted member 69573

User requested account closure
Banned
May 17, 2020
1,320
Melbourne, Australia
Yeah Kawakami is such a great character, then they completely ruin her half way through the game. One of the many reasons I dropped P5 3 dungeons from the end.

It starts so strong though, such a shame it ends up pandering to the worst parts of anime culture.
 

Xita

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
9,185
I was shocked at some of the dialog choices between the MC and Kawakami and the way she's portrayed in the game. Heck the OT for P5R here has a subtitle that hints towards that relationship. Its honestly weird af.

Yeah it surprised me that the mods were okay with that lol, but I guess if you just say it's an in-joke...
 

Daysean

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,383
Apocalypse have :
- childhood friend love interest.
- beach episode.
- yandere girl that calls you "master". Cue love triangle with the childhood friend.
- bro character (think Ryuji and Yosuke from Persona).
- Loli goddess.
- Mascot/comic relief character.
- Big sister figure.
- POWER OF FRIENDSHIP !

images
Bruh, when i was playing SMT 4A and got to all that shit i was like ????????????????????????????????????????
If i wanted stuff like this i would fuck with Persona, it's DLC but still

Really hope SMT V doesn't do the same and keeps SMT dark and edgy like I want it to be
 

tiebreaker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,115
What is more fucked up, as an adult playing a 16 year old dating an adult, or...

as an adult playing a 16 year old dating a 16 year old.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,963
What is more fucked up, as an adult playing a 16 year old dating an adult, or...

as an adult playing a 16 year old dating a 16 year old.
On that note, I do think it's somewhat relevant that the age ratings for Persona 5 suggest at different target audiences.

CERO C - Ages 15+
PEGI 16 - Ages 16+
ESRB M - Ages 17+

Apparently it's the first game in Japan to go over CERO B (12+).
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
Sucks that the Thieves Den has an in-game achievement for having you date all of the girls. Going through a NG+ run right now and save scumming all of the relationship routes and some of the dialogue for the older relationships is hilarious in a terrible way. The doctor literally asks if your guardian is home before you spend time together.

All of that weird stuff yet being in a relationship with another guy is just TOO WEIRD for Hashino/Atlus
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,491
I'm going to say that I personally was not exactly as worked up over this as I was for a lot of my other issues with the game's writing, but I do think this it's worth criticizing. And if it was meant to, for better or worse, provide a fantasy for (straight male) players in that these romantic social links are like a romance VN/dating sim (which is a context I think this should be looked at from), even at best it's one that conflicts with its messages elsewhere. I think it's more likely we'd just see them drop this stuff or not be students at all than switch to college students for various reasons, regardless. I don't think being a college student would have fit thematically here either (but then again, neither does some of their other big decisions for the plot/setting).

That being said, the whole social link was still upsetting for me from the start, even before it got into the possibility of romance. I was so sick of them forcing Joker to be canonically super horny and going along with Ryuji's dipshit plans. I wanted to be able to tell Kawakami "no, seriously, I really do not care about what you do in your free time" instead of being forced into doing the blackmail-ish situation that results.

EDIT: Also, some of the takes here on Futaba are weird to me in relation to what actually happens in-game and the ridiculousness of it, and how her social link actually plays out, but w/e.
 
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Saturday

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,319
It's a rabbit hole of slippery moral quandaries and theme-undermining writing with every new layer you can think about.

I mean, okay, you can date a teacher. Alright. That sentence, alone, no context, seems alright? I'm an adult playing this game, so.. I dunno, it'd be kinda weird to date a schoolgirl, so let's go along with this?

Your character is a 16/17-year old. I mean, okay, you're skirting the age of consent, in the end it's two willing people with consent. As mentioned, I'm an adult most likely you're an adult playing this game, and because you're the one actually initiating, it's just weird as hell mental gymnastics to shoehorn you into waifu shit??

Her story's kinda weird though, I like the whole teacher being burdened with her student's life like that, and I get the maid stuff is just pandering, alright, it wears it's heart on it's sleeve, I guess???

Wait, what do you mean there's an entire plotline where a male teacher is sexually harassing his students???? And the opportunity to date your female teacher comes after this????

Hold on, the entire game has themes of abuse with power dynamics?????

Honestly, I'm trash. Romances in JRPGs, I'm down. But I know full well that romance in video games is mostly pandering and written terribly. And even by these standards, Kawakami's romance in P5 is just.. bad to think about. And I think Sae is hella hot. In summary, fer fuck's sake Persona, you're fuckin JRPG as hell.
 

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,959
Spain
Out of all the non-party members people would not shut up about her being the best romance option when the game came out. I really could not vibe with her storyline, it's not only creepy, but very eye-rollingly stupid. Atlus should decide if they want to make serious games or fan service games, or at least balance it better, like I felt P3 and P4 did.
 

RyuCookingSomeRice

Alt account
Banned
Feb 5, 2020
1,009
I mean, its weird as fuck.. But depending on where you live the character isnt a minor. Weird to see people get banned for saying they liked that part, when in Iceland you can be of legal age to date above 18 when you are 15. Now thats very young but in other european countries 16 or 17 is the actual norm.

But I guess this is mostly an American board stilp with American.mods upholding American values.

Not saying that dating a teacher isnt fucking weird, because it is. And if you have actual sex with her thats even weirder. But to ban ppl for saying they liked it, in a anime game focused on romancing various ppl.. well.. Dont look at any of the other japanese marker games like gal gun.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
The Futaba one is even weirder considering what the poor girl had to suffer through before. It would've been way better when you max her S Link you just become close as brother and sister and that's it (pandering to the Onii-chan troupe so at least it keeps some creepy factor for the hardcore fans ©). The one with the teacher is... phew.
Yeah, Futaba's also definitely problematic on multiple levels.

Like, Futaba clearly suffers from extreme agoraphobia/social anxiety at the start of the game among other issues, caused/exasperated by in no small part her witnessing the death of her mother, blaming herself for it, and the subsequent abuse she received from her uncle on top of it all.

Then of course per her request Joker and the Phantom Thieves help her out.

However, as can be clearly seen at that point, through both Futaba's and Sojiro's social link over and over again, and the game pretty much explicitly referring to the Sojirro/Futaba/Joker unit as a family multiple times (with like Everytime the game refers to Futaba as Sojiro's "daughter" finding a way to work Joker in there too), making it clear that there's supposed to be at least something, at least something of a sibling dynamic supposed to be between Futaba and Joker.

But on top of that, on top of that looking at just Futaba's social link now, it's clear that while she credits the Phantom Thieves in general to the progress she makes, she clearly credits Joker above and beyond any if the others for it and starts to become extremely dependent on him in particular in her social link, with her social link explicitly referencing she's just more comfortable and relaxed when Joker's around/more nervous and prone to anxiety when he's gone, etc. She clearly forms a dependency in him. Which may make sense due to everythingshe goes through.

However....

The player then having the option to take advantage of Futaba's precarious position, to take advantage of her mental health issues, the clearly sibling-coded bond, and the dependency she builds on Joker to pursue a romantic relationship with her is.... Super-messed up, to put it lightly.

Especially since in top if it all, on top if it all during Sojiro's final rank of his social link, he has a line ASKING THE PLAYER NOT TO DATE FUTABA. The game then moves on to making it just Sojiro not being sure he'd be comfortable hearing Joker call him "dad" but still, they still flat-out acknowledge it and have the line there all the same, however you want to rationalize it.

The devs/writers know, rye game knows, the whole thing is just messed up and super weird. Being able to have the option to date Futaba regardless of all this is super bleeeeeeeeh.
 

Deleted member 46493

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
5,231
At the end of the day Persona is part of the "anime game" genre and thus must include self-insert harem fantasy scenerarios for otakus. We (Westerners) are not the primary or most profitable audience. I do believe Atlus game designers actually think things like this are a good idea but they're also a business decision.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
I mean, its weird as fuck.. But depending on where you live the character isnt a minor. Weird to see people get banned for saying they liked that part, when in Iceland you can be of legal age to date above 18 when you are 15. Now thats very young but in other european countries 16 or 17 is the actual norm.

But I guess this is mostly an American board stilp with American.mods upholding American values.

Not saying that dating a teacher isnt fucking weird, because it is. And if you have actual sex with her thats even weirder. But to ban ppl for saying they liked it, in a anime game focused on romancing various ppl.. well.. Dont look at any of the other japanese marker games like gal gun.
That's not it, it's not just the age difference that's a problem, although that certainly does not help at all.

It's the power dynamics that exist between teacher/student regardless. That like, age aside, between teacher and student, due to teacher being responsible for being in charge of a student's grades and stuff, there exists a huge power differential in teacher/student relationships and due to that even if a student nay want to say no to something or to the relationship in general, they night not feel comfortable doing so and hesitate or say nothing at all, in fear of potential repercussions like that.

Thus, regardless of age, it's in the teacher to say "no" in such situations to avoid them in the first place, and to do otherwise is extremely problematic and just let's them fester.

Then of course in top of that, there was Kamoshida's palace right before this in the game, which shows exactly how those kinda relationships can be abused, looking at what Kamoshida dud to Ann and Shiho in particular. Then there's how even in regards to just Joker, Kamoshida abuses both his position as a teacher/Joker's probationary status to try and get Joker expelled, which shows what a delicate position Joker in particular would be in such a teacher/student relationship (which is also something Kawakami herself is explicitly stated as knowing about in the lead up to Kamoshida's Palace, due to Kamoshida leaking the information around the entire school but also her just knowing in general, as is made clear when Joker first comes to school at the very start of the game and introduces himself to her/the principal and stuff).

Of course, on top if that, in the particulars of the Kawakami social link, you have to consider how it starts. With Joker, Ryuji, and Mishima going to some random apartment Ryuji happens to have access to in order to call some maid-fetish service... Only to be surprised when it's Kawakami if all people, their homeroom teacher who shows up.

At which point, Joker/Kawakami basically use this info to come to a mutual blackmail standstill.

That is, until Joker learns that Kawakami's only doing this whole sidejob thing in the first place because the parents of a former student of her's are blackmailing her for insane amounts if money and that's the only sidejob that's close to her school/home that also pays enough to meet their demands.

...At which point, Joker *shrugs* and continues blackmailing her into being his personal maid anyway, just ignoring that she's only doing that because she was being extorted in the first place.

And then as the social link continues, it's in no small part about what the role of a teacher should or shouldn't be, so when the time comes for the relationship option, it obviously references that and how that's super weird and the whole thing is in contradiction to the rest of the social link, but it just gives you the option anyway...

It's just bad on multiple levels.
 

Sasliquid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
I love Persona 5 but it's just one of the many ways Persona 4 remains my preferred game, the relationships in P4 seem a lot healthier. Almost all the relationships possible in P5 do not have healthy power dynamics (but aren't framed that way).
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
How well received would be a game where you have sexualization of underage girls, disgusting representation of gays and statutory rape?

95 Metacritic

It boggles my mind, really
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,477
How well received would be a game where you have sexualization of underage girls, disgusting representation of gays and statutory rape?

95 Metacritic

It boggles my mind, really

I mean, GTA V is 97.

I played 100+ hours of Persona 5 without dating anyone, it sucks that it's there, but the gameplay has nothing to do with it lol.
 
Wait, did this user get banned for quoting the game? Wow lol
PassionateClumsyBordercollie-mobile.jpg


I don't get the attraction to her personally. The whole relationship is weird and feels kinda forced.
Yeah that was an obvious quote from the game from anyone who's played it.

And as someone who has played the game and beat it twice I don't remember that quote at all.

Maybe in a serious thread talking about the problematic element/statutory rape in P5 isn't the best time to make a off the collar comment quote of P5 thatcomes off condoning student/teacher relationship.

Some basic common sense
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
I mean, GTA V is 97.

I played 100+ hours of Persona 5 without dating anyone, it sucks that it's there, but the gameplay has nothing to do with it lol.
Persona V doesnt treat it as parody like GTA V does

In GTA V everyone is a piece of shit

In Persona 5, you play as (underage) good guys

Its the complete opposite, really.

Completely different tone and approach
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Dating Kawakami never bothered me in any way while playing, but the idea of dating Futaba felt creepy as hell to me. No idea why I feel that way, but it is what it is.
 

CrocodileGrin

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,153
futaba's even weirder, tbh.
Yep. I refused to get into a relationship with Futaba for so many reasons and was even surprised that it was a possible thing more than the teacher and doctor. The main one that struck me for moving forward with Futaba was you're essentially her life coach and trying to get her to open up to her personal surroundings. To me, it would have been like taking advantage of a situation you're both in and might even be mentally confusing for her due to everything she has experienced in such a short time. It would have felt like everything you accomplished was just to get her to be your girlfriend, which seems really fucked up.
 
This boy didn't deserve the ban, that was a cheeky reference to a related dialogue of the game. Mods should play this masterpiece of a game and see by themselves.
Nope:
And as someone who has played the game and beat it twice I don't remember that quote at all.

Maybe in a serious thread talking about the problematic element/statutory rape in P5 isn't the best time to make a off the collar comment quote of P5 thatcomes off condoning student/teacher relationship.

Some basic common sense

Ban is worth it to not make jokes in a serious topic
 

marcbret87

Member
Apr 20, 2018
1,367
I recently started playing, about four hours in. First of all, thank you for spoiling that for me!

Second, I was pretty surprised when
Ann said she was propositioned for sex by the volleyball coach. You just don't see that stuff in video games.

There is a spoiler in the thread title, what exactly did you expect?