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DrKelpo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,861
Germany
Hey you guys, I have seen something yesterday and I need to talk about it.

I'm German and I've been at Gamescom pretty much every year since it started with some friends.
So like every year after we visited all the main halls we went to the merchandise booths.
There was a special area for cosplaying with a stage, some events and everything, so the amount of people in costumes was even bigger than everywhere else.

I walk through the aisles and four boys, I guess 15-16, walk pass me wearing uniforms of the Wehrmacht. I'm no historian or expert on the matter, but it was absolutely clear what they were dressed as. It's not like there weren't other people wearing some sort of military attire, I saw a lot of Rainbow Six Siege cosplayers for example. But I'd say except it's some sort of promotion from one of the booths, it's pretty uncommon for people wearing uniforms from WW1, WW2 etc. It's a convention for games not some sort of WW2 historical reenactment event. Also keep in mind that this is Germany we're talking about so it's even more of an issue than maybe in other countries.

My first thought was that they portrayed characters from some Manga series like "Girl und Panzer" and maybe they did. I wanted to ask them but I was standing there confused for a second and they disappeared into the crowd too quickly. Also it didn't seem like anything Manga-related, it was pretty straight forward German uniforms from the war. (no swastikas)
And it wasn't just some military-style jacket and a kinda-German looking helmet. The costumes were pretty good quality-wise... these boys obviously put a lot of effort and/or money into these things.

Since then I can't really get this out of my head. Assuming they just dressed as German soldiers... how the fuck did they think this was a good idea? Was there no parent who stopped them on their way out to question what they were doing?

We had threads about the role of the German army in video games on this forum before. It's a difficult discussion... if a game is set in WW2 and it has multiplayer modes, one of the teams is Germany (or other Axis factions) and some of the players have to take this role. If you want to have this historical background, that's how it is. Games like Battlefield kinda circumvent this overlaying issue by just making it about two factions in a historical setting fighting each other without much politics or too much actual historical context. For example it has been pretty common in multiplayer for some time now not to use swastikas even in the international versions. I think especially in newer titles where you have more and more freedom in your loadouts and looks, the lines between the faction are even more blurred, at some point making it almost irrelevant on which side you're on and just making it about fighting in a WW2 setting. Singleplayer is an entirely different thing and obviously even more difficult. That's why it took ages for some AAA Game to touch this delicate matter.

Especially Battlefield 5 was in the news about the whole issue lately. The DLC "elite soldiers" which are basically just skins to stand out on the battlefield go against aforementioned blurry lines and introduce figures to identify with. Now you can buy a "cool looking" cosplay worthy Nazi General or a Nazi assassin skin and proudly wear it. I'm overexaggerating a bit of course but it is a topic worth discussing and it has been discussed here and even several news outlets picked it up.

The point is (and that's my worry too) games shouldn't portray the German army as just one among many who fought in the war, which also had cool figures to look up to. As I said, games in this historical setting have the difficult task to walk that fine line between including the faction but not glorifying it. I guess what games in the past have done, i.e. making it more about TeamvsTeam in a historical setting is the only way to really do this.

That being said it's also clear that games alone should not be the only source of historical education for younger generations. They should especially learn about that stuff in school to build some foundation and general context so that games can be played with a certain mindset. Of course I'm not saying that games can't be educational as well. And trust me, these boys yesterday (assuming they were German) learnt about that stuff in school.

I don't want to say people should feel bad when the game automatically puts them into the German team of course.. but there is a very real and distinct difference between playing the German side in a game and enjoying it and actually putting on WW2 uniforms in real life and going to a gaming convention to proudly show it off.

In the end I'm just worried what kind of perception these boys have about history and what this means for future generations.
Maybe I'm thinking about it way too much. Maybe (probably) a ton of people were equally as confused when they saw the boys as I was. And maybe I just came across four stupid teenagers who just didn't think this one through.

And one last thing to consider before replying... if your argument is based on the myth that the Wehrmacht was just an army of regular soldiers who just fought regular clean fights and all the evil and monstrosities were committed by other branches of the German armed forces in WW2, I'll stop you right there and urge you to educate yourself more on the matter.
It's simply not true.
 
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Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
The same shit with Gamergate and all this kinda stuff that happens in the US also happens in Germany.
These boys in their age are the target audience for this hatred.
Sad but true.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,104
Austria
Wouldn't dressing up as WW2 soldiers (or, well, "Nazis") for fun be like... illegal? Even without Swastika.
Though I'm honestly not sure what does and doesn't count as what I'd call Wiederbetätigung, under the law.
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
Wouldn't dressing up as WW2 soldiers (or, well, "Nazis") for fun be like... illegal? Even without Swastika.
Though I'm honestly not sure what does and doesn't count as what I'd call Wiederbetätigung, under the law.
I'm pretty sure I'm Germany at least you can get in BIG trouble for it. Perhaps these guys just got away with it or they just kept to regulations for it to be allowed (e.g. no swastikas).
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,104
Austria
I'm pretty sure I'm Germany at least you can get in BIG trouble for it. Perhaps these guys just got away with it or they just kept to regulations for it to be allowed (e.g. no swastikas).
I know that donning a German WWII uniform here in Austria, without some proper context (educational, for a movie, stuff like that) would get you in trouble, but I'm not sure how Germany handles that kind of thing.

Isn't it just Wolfenstein cosplay?
Wolfenstein cosplay, depending on the costume, will have you end up in front of a judge here in Austria
 

TrafficCoen

The Fallen
Feb 22, 2019
1,600
Unfortunately there is a lot of anime/manga with a circa ww2 germany aesthetic but the fact they seemed confused when you asked doesn't make it seem like a bunch of teens not realizing what cosplaying their favourite manga looks like to outsiders.

If they actually are cosplaying as wehrmacht because they liked the look of them from battlefield V or something similar then they need some serious talking to

Edit: I misread and thought OP asked them and they were confused. Well then I hope it's just a bunch of cosplaying teens who don't realize they look like Nazis
 

Jakartalado

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,275
São Paulo, Brazil
This is interesting. I'm from Brazil, and with the rise of ultra conservative right wing groups those guys would get praised here with speeches about denying the historical background of the war.

Clearly they are using some form of freedom of speech to use those uniforms on a convention, and I do support the freedom of speech. But next time they should also visit a museum or a memorial about what they were representing.

I would change my mind about wearing those costumes after 15 minutes of Googling.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,104
Austria
Fun fact I just read: In Austria, you HAVE to report people who break the Wiederbetätigungsgesetz law to the authorities.
If you knowingly let someone get away with it, you could end up in jail as well. Up to years.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,756
United Kingdom
movies arent censored here and since a couple of months ago games can show swastikas under certain circumstances

I was under the impression that The Producers wasn't allowed to be shown in Germany until 2009, but turns out with a google I was thinking of the stage show. So I stand corrected.

I didn't know that the law was changed to allow the swastika in some games either.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,331
Yeah I was under the impression that your education system was pretty clear on the Wehrmacht's role. Maybe times are changing

Thankfully all I saw was some sick Borderlands and Final Fantasy cosplay. No weird Nazi shit or anything adjacent to it
 

El-Suave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,829
movies arent censored here and since a couple of months ago games can show swastikas under certain circumstances

Yeah, but a multiplayer game that wanted to include Swastikas without proper reflection and a good socially adequate reason got denied. That's why we probably won't see Nazi symbols in mindless "just for fun" gameplay modes in the future.
 

Bedameister

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,942
Germany
I was under the impression that The Producers wasn't allowed to be shown in Germany until 2009, but turns out with a google I was thinking of the stage show. So I stand corrected.

I didn't know that the law was changed to allow the swastika in some games either.
It did. The uncensored Version of Wolfenstein Young Blood was sold in Germany. Unfortunately many retail chains didn't want to sell it and only offered a censored version.
 
Jan 2, 2018
10,699
I'm sure they were just huge fans of the designs of Hugo Boss!

I live in Germany and we're pretty strict about things like that so either it got somehow unnoticed or it has some context we don't know about.
 
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OP
DrKelpo

DrKelpo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,861
Germany
That's pretty fucked up. I'm surprised gamescom allows this because I think they shouldn't.

Yeah, I don't get this as well.. illegal or not, Gamescom has the right to not let them in. These boys have crossed several guards and other personell on their way in, so either they didn't mind or didn't care.

Wouldn't dressing up as WW2 soldiers (or, well, "Nazis") for fun be like... illegal? Even without Swastika.
Though I'm honestly not sure what does and doesn't count as what I'd call Wiederbetätigung, under the law.

I thought German law was quite strict on this issue?

I'm not entirely sure, but I think if you don't wear certain types of insignia or emblems (which they actually did iirc, like medals, decorations) it's technically not illegal.
On the other hand it could be interpreted as glorification of the Nazi dictatorship, which is illegal.
 

El-Suave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,829
In my opinion you have to be really careful about how you portray German WW2 soldiers, and any kind of hero unit is automatically pretty problematic. You also have to be careful about mission objectives for the German side, but I think most games are pretty clinical in that aspect. That leaves us with games where the Germans have normal military tasks that could be the same on the Allied side.
So what we end up with are individual soldiers down in the trenches who are more or less cannon fodder on every side of most conflicts. There is a reason why most international war memorials commemorate all the fallen soldiers and don't draw the distinction between the good and the bad guys.

The more interesting discussion is whether we should have these games as pure entertainment in general and whether it's OK to have WW1 soldiers walking into gas from chemical weapons to the pulsing beat of Seven Nation Army like in that excellently made Battlefield 1 trailer. But let's face it, that discussion never happened and the ship has sailed.
 

TheMoon

|OT|
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,775
Video Games
Scenario a) edgelords who don't know what they're doing, scenario b) edgelords who know very well what they're doing and think that makes them even edgier and lordier.

Conclusion: the fuck is wrong with people
 

Aprikurt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,775
And with how media portraits the German uniform . Hell iirc there was a Japanese pop group who dressed up as nazis for Halloween. And in other Asian countries as well.
Something tells me it's our recent fetishising of anti-heroes and villains as desirable that has led us to this bizarre conclusion.
 

SJRB

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
4,861
Can't think of any situation where I'd consider cosplaying as a nazi Wehrmacht soldier a good idea, Wolfenstein or not.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
It's impossible to judge this without some pictures. Could be that it's just a poor cosplay from an IP that has similiar looking uniforms for all we know.
 

SigSig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,777
Just wanna add to this that I feel pretty uncomfortable around any soldier cosplay at conventions, Wehrmacht or not.
First time I was at GC, I suddenly found myself in the middle of masked spec ops dudes and had to do a double take before arriving at the conclusion that this probably was cosplay and not a Modern Warfare 2 – No Russian-type situation. Still gave me the creeps.
 

Dralos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,072
I'm pretty sure I'm Germany at least you can get in BIG trouble for it. Perhaps these guys just got away with it or they just kept to regulations for it to be allowed (e.g. no swastikas).
There is no law in Germany which forbids wearing Wehrmacht (not sure about Waffen SS) uniforms. You are just not allowed to have any Swastikas/or SS runes on them.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
My understanding is that the law pertains to symbols.
Exactly. Wearing an uniform or "Opas alten Stahlhelm" isn't prohibited. It is symbols like SS runes, or swastikas, and symbol-like gestures like Nazi salute.

It is not prohibited, though, in context of education, sciences, documentaries and other cultural relevant contexts such as video games, painting, film, etc. So wearing those uniforms WITH symbols in public would certainly get you arrested. Wearing uniforms with symbols in part of theatre, reenactment or any other of aforementioned contexts is legal.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
I went to a World of Tanks event in the UK once (to cover it for work, not out of any real personal interest) and there was a guy in a full SS outfit. Rightly, the organizers turfed him the fuck out.
 

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,173
Yeah I was under the impression that your education system was pretty clear on the Wehrmacht's role. Maybe times are changing

Thankfully all I saw was some sick Borderlands and Final Fantasy cosplay. No weird Nazi shit or anything adjacent to it

I can assure you they are not changing anything about that.

That being said, did those uniforms carry Nazi symbols? I think it's those that are prohibited by law, not specific uniforms themselves. Disturbing to see two teenage boys dressed this way, I agree.
 
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DrKelpo

DrKelpo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,861
Germany
Link Removed

Some anti-ResetEra Twitter account picked up the thread. I feel honored.
 
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Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
Shame, but its ok pay no mind, maybe it was some stupid Anime. You could have asked them but it seems you only looked them a few seconds.

Let it pass. Maybe they were some assholes, or maybe they got the idea from TV, kids can be dumb lets hope next year it wont repeat
 

Night Hunter

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,793
These little shits should try this here in Austria. Wouldn't that be fun, boys!


I removed it here also as not to Signal boost those shitstains

Some anti-ResetEra Twitter account picked up the thread. I feel honored.

This is hilarious, it's like we are living rent free in these dumbasses heads. Just like their stupid god emperor Trump and Bams.
 
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darthbob

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,012
What sort of uniform was it? The classic infantry greatcoat with stahlhelm?

Seems that if no fascist iconography is displayed on it then it'd technically be legal, but that doesn't mean it's socially acceptable. Usually Germans are pretty staunch about addressing things like this however, so I wouldn't be surprised if these people were asked about it.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
I don't know. But it's a possibility. He couldn't ask them, so we can just speculate. As I said, either we're missing context or (and this is admittedly more likely) they got away with it.

You're saying it's a possibility and that's what I was asking about—what reasoning would they need to provide you for it to make sense?
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,104
Austria
Yea how do you guys not see this as a problem? A bit extreme to lock people up for cosplaying.
"I was only dressing up like a Nazi for fun because of a game" is a pretty shit reason to dress up as a Nazi in a country that forbids belittling the crimes the Nazis committed. You think that's a problem? Really? Where is the problem here, besides "people can't dress up as a group universally known for their horrid crimes against humanity"?
Your phrasing is, honestly, insultingly misleading. Saying that it's "locking people up for cosplaying"
a) misrepresents what would happen, because I never said people would get locked up for it
and
b) makes it sound like cosplaying is the problem. You could just as well say "What, I can't swing my arms in my own home?" to make fun of laws regarding child abuse. I know this is an exaggerated example, but the nature is the same: Acting like a harmless act is illegal, when it's actually the harm caused by the act. It's the costume, not the dressing up, that poses a legal issue. Your suggestion of allowing it just enables Nazis to be Nazis.
 
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Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,104
Austria
Like people said in this thread: Cosplay of gaming, anime or film characters, some kind of historical re-enactment before the convention,...as I said, I don't know and I think it's unlikely.
I think cosplaying of characters would be unacceptable tbh. Like, you'd get off with a warning, but it's nothing you'd get permission for, as it's dressing up as Nazis for fun, in the end. Acting as part of a historical performance, yeah, I could see that.
 

Maccix

Member
Jan 10, 2018
1,250
Yea how do you guys not see this as a problem? A bit extreme to lock people up for cosplaying.

How do u distinct between cosplayers and people wearing them because of "Good old times"?

I mean i dont know if its forbidden in the USA,but KKK cosplayers should be locked up to,dont you Think?