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Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
Attack of the Clones is supposedly the Star Wars film that gets a lot of heat and criticisms - in some ways, for good reason: Bad execution of its themes, cringe-worthy love scenes, underdeveloped character motivations and subpar acting, and so on. I have had a long time break from the Prequel Trilogy films until I decided I wanted to read a lot of the major Legends and Canon novels and comics set in the Prequel era. I started with Darth Plagueis (which is an excellent book that underpins a lot of the prequel trilogy and I highly recommend it), then I went through a whole bunch of other mediocre novels, and then I recently read R.A. Salvatore's novelization of Attack of the Clones. Not to say that one is a masterpiece at all, but it does do a decent job at improving and adding to the film. Surprisingly, so many scenes are given proper breathing room to make the relationship between Anakin and Padme *at least* more believable. To give just one example, a lot of internalization of both Padme and Anakin helps explain their motivation for falling in love with another. Not only that, but a lot of extra dialogue and contextualization surround the cringy scenes from the film that makes them much more digestible, if not believable. Tor.com had an article back in 2015 that goes through how the book helps expand and substantiate what the film tried to do:

Obviously, the relationship between Anakin and Padmé gets far more attention here. In some places it's awkward as ever, but at least the narrative tries to give some explanation for said awkwardness. We see the moments where Anakin gets more petulant or impassioned because Padmé is open to listening to him in a way that his Jedi comrades do not. And then some of the more cringeworthy exchanges are contextualized so they're not so icky [...] Two things: to start, this version of the dialogue makes Anakin about 88% less creepy. He goes for the joke when things get tense, and as soon as Padmé tells him she's uncomfortable, he backs right off without leering. It's also noteworthy that Padmé discomfort comes partly from being observed by an outside party, fearing how the conversation might look to her handmaiden.

We spend time with Padmé's family when they're on Naboo, which is an aspect expanded from deleted scenes in the film. Getting to know Padmé's sister and parents makes it easier to understand why a senator who is so bound up in her service suddenly falls head over heels for an impetuous guy who's barely out of his teen years. Her older sibling already has a family, and believes that Padmé has spent too much time giving her life away in service of others. Her parents worry for her constantly. Deep down, Senator Amidala feels as though she's missing out on something, and Anakin's love for her home and her family (two things that Anakin misses from his childhood) make him a sudden possibility.

Anakin's journey to retrieve his mother on Tatooine is given the extra attention it needs to make it more palatable. For one, it's suggested that the reason why the Tusken Raiders essentially torture Shmi is to find the weakness of their "enemies." So the idea that this is a reactive stance, that the Tuskens are acting out of fear at the human population, is at least paid some lip service. The brief flash of Qui-Gon's voice that we hear in the film as Yoda meditates is expanded upon; Anakin tapping into that fear and anger basically calls up Qui-Gon's spirit and that plea is even audible to Anakin himself. (Yoda's shock at hearing it is what prompts his research into Jedi preserving their spirits after death.) And then there's Anakin's tirade to Padmé when he returns with his mother's dead body, which easily qualifies as the most disturbing point in their relationship because Padmé tells Anakin that she's a-okay with him committing child slaughter. But in the book, it makes sense that she's trying to calm Anakin—and that's because it's clear that he's gone into genuine shock and she has to work to bring him back to himself.

Moreover, a lot of interesting moral and political themes are picked up throughout the book that are barely mentioned in the film. E.g. the ethical ramifications of cloning and hyper-aging, the Jedi being intertwined in Senate politics, the Jedi being against using the clones at first, or the catch-22 that the clone army represents for the Jedi and the Republic: If they don't take advantage, they lose to the massive Separatist droid army, yet this also means they play into the Sith plan. The motivations for the Separatist army is also explicitly mentioned by Dooku as being about entirely tax-free trade and unregulated capitalism (actual words used in the novel!). There are many of these "social" questions that completely fall by the wayside in the film, so reading the novel can also be extremely frustrating in terms of wasted potential when wat.

At the time it released, I thought AOTC was better than TPM with some really interesting mechanical designs, mysterious worlds, and super impressive visuals (I was very taken by the sandstorm battle and the Anakin riding a speeder bike in the dune sea with Duel of the Fates playing). Not to mention that John Williams' Across the Stars is GOAT-tier. However, in retrospect there was no way around the acting and the dialogue and especially the emotional core of the film falling flat on its face due to, imo, poor execution of some otherwise really great themes around love and desire versus duty. R.A. Salvatore's novelization really helps pick up the pieces imo to show the great potential that the movie had. For a film that gets so much heat and criticisms, it's also good to acknowledge its ambitions and even its positive intentions.

Alternate thread: Say something positive about Attack of the Clones.
 
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Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,168
Greater Vancouver
I mean... no. The movie is the movie. The book doesn't improve the movie, just a writer had a better take to try and fix or atleast justify choices in a very very bad script. But the awful performances and dialogue are still awful, deeply disturbing, and met with character choices that are baffling.

I welcome people to check out A More Civilized Age who posted their AOTC episode just last week.




If I'm going to say something positive... well the sound design is still very very good.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,617
AOTC is really interesting as a film because pretty much EVERY bit of apocrypha surrounding it lifts it up to be better than it is. Whether that's Clone Wars the cartoon or the various games or the novel. I'd be really interested in seeing Padme and Anakin's relationship expanded upon realistically, the stuff you said about the book is really interesting. Clone Wars is wonderful, but I don't think it ever goes as far into their relationship as Padme feeling lonely or her family pushing her, and it certainly doesn't touch her trying to bring him back from the brink.

I adored AOTC as a kid but now consider it the second weakest of the films (AOTC at least fails trying while to do something interesting, as opposed to TROS). I kinda view it best as a pilot movie to the Clone Wars cartoon.
 

Rats

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,111
George Lucas is a terrible filmmaker but he's great at coming up with ideas for more talented writers to run with.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
I don't really get this, if I have to read a novel or comics/watch a TV show, to find any story enjoyment in a flawed film then that's not really any good.
 
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Samiya

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
I mean... no. The movie is the movie. The book doesn't improve the movie, just a writer had a better take to try and fix or atleast justify choices in a very very bad script. But the awful performances and dialogue are still awful, deeply disturbing, and met with character choices that are baffling.

I welcome people to check out A More Civilized Age who posted their AOTC episode just last week.




If I'm going to say something positive... well the sound design is still very very good.


Of course the movie is the movie, but I'm referring to the ways that the novelization "reveals" and substantiates the core themes. Just like Clone Wars is lauded for doing some amazing things with the concepts introduced in the prequels, so does the novelization introduce and cover some of the exact same themes that we praise the TV show for doing. Pretty much what Tavernade says here:

AOTC is really interesting as a film because pretty much EVERY bit of apocrypha surrounding it lifts it up to be better than it is. Whether that's Clone Wars the cartoon or the various games or the novel..

And yeah, so happy to see you Khanimus mention A More Civilized Age. I've been listening to Rob, Natalie, Ali, and Austin and they're obviously very great and entertaining with their coverage of the first two films so far. Definitely planning to support on Patreon if/once that happen.
 

Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
I don't really get this, if I have to read a novel or comics/watch a TV show, to find any story enjoyment in a flawed film then that's not really any good.
The comic made the JJ Star Trek a lot better.
You simply can't cram all the information you want into a 2-3 hour movie with all these universes.
Most of the movie is highlighting the stars and sfx.
 
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Samiya

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
I don't really get this, if I have to read a novel or comics/watch a TV show, to find any story enjoyment in a flawed film then that's not really any good.

I mean, at the end of the day, it's just unimportant geek media, but haven't you engaged with a fictional universe and wanted to know more about certain characters, vehicles, locations, their backgrounds, histories? Like, it's not just the film you're watching, but something grander? Star Wars is such a multimedia franchise that it's basically not just the film themselves, but all the transmedial storytelling surrounding each film (just look at all the product churned out with every release).
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,902
I was not expecting RA Salvatore lol

Obiwan follows Jango to a strange planet where he spies a strange man and a panther...
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
The comic made the JJ Star Trek a lot better.
You simply can't cram all the information you want into a 2-3 hour movie with all these universes.
Most of the movie is highlighting the stars and sfx.

The goal of a movie should not be to "cram information" (and even then, there are 2+ hour movies that do lore/worldbuilding extremely well, some even in a subtle manner that allows the audience to think and theorize for themselves as opposed to exposition). It should be to tell a compelling narrative first and foremost, and introduce compelling characters whether it's understanding their motivations, or seeing their character arc unfold. It's why people gravitate to the original trilogy even with all of the extra content that comes out for it in terms of backstory and filling in the gaps.

I mean, at the end of the day, it's just unimportant geek media, but haven't you engaged with a fictional universe and wanted to know more about certain characters, vehicles, locations, their backgrounds, histories? Like, it's not just the film you're watching, but something grander? Star Wars is such a multimedia franchise that it's basically not just the film themselves, but all the transmedial storytelling surrounding each film (just look at all the product churned out with every release).

For me, it's only with games (Hollow Knight is one example of lore and worldbuilding done right and I often look at fan/theories/other content to get my fun), but the point isn't about interacting with the extra content by itself, because I know fans will always eat up new content from the franchises that they love, and rightfully so. It's that if I have to jump through all these hoops just to find enjoyment with a particularly bad film, it speaks more to the film's inability to tell a compelling narrative. And for me, it's difficult to invest that much when the movie should have done a much better job.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,283
Obi-wan's detective plotline was really fun.
a lot of the designs were really cool- the clones, the speeders, coruscant, LAAT gunships, delta-7 starfighters, etc.
the arena fight and subsequent battle in the sand was fun.
anakin/obiwan fight against dooku was fun
Dooku was pretty cool, Jango pretty good.

honestly, if they had reworked the love scene dialogue and removed the factory scene, I think it would be pretty solid movie.
Also, maybe if dooku had made a more compelling case to obi-wan when he captured him, also maybe if the Jedi and clones arrived at the same time (why did Mace's squad and Yoda not coordinate?? they lost so many people!).

i know it was supposed to be positive things only, but i figured it might count for stuff that was almost there.

it's been a very long time since i read the book, but i remember anakin's dream sequence of his mother turning into glass and shattering gave me nightmares as a kid- maybe it's time i gave it a re-read.
 

Nickgia

Member
Dec 30, 2017
2,263
Not gonna lie, now that I have more context from the clone wars and I am older, I really enjoy all three of the prequel movies.
 
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Samiya

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
For me, it's only with games (Hollow Knight is one example of lore and worldbuilding done right and I often look at fan/theories/other content to get my fun), but the point isn't about interacting with the extra content by itself, because I know fans will always eat up new content from the franchises that they love, and rightfully so. It's that if I have to jump through all these hoops just to find enjoyment with a particularly bad film, it speaks more to the film's inability to tell a compelling narrative. And for me, it's difficult to invest that much when the movie should have done a much better job.

I understand, I guess it's about how we approach these particular films. I guess it helps that the concepts in the prequels are interesting but never properly treated in the films that the surrounding media (novels, TV shows, comics, etc.) help feed into actually executing on these themes.

Not gonna lie, now that I have more context from the clone wars and I am older, I really enjoy all three of the prequel movies.

Same. I'm having great fun enveloping myself in the era. It's *really* great.
 

Vashetti

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,552
It's great that you've found enjoyment in them, but the prequel novelisations, as well as the Plagueis novel you mentioned, are no longer canon and are classed as Legends.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,031
I just gotta say, the middle half of AotC turning into a film noir complete with detective Obi wan going to a motherfucking diner for information was the most batshit moment in the entire PT.
 

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,312
In my ideal prequel trilogy of better movies, Attack of Clones would be the start. I would prefer the trilogy encompass the Clone Wars with a movie covering the beginning, middle, and end so you can see the development of Anakin and the cost of the war on the galaxy. Plus I think it would be better if Anakin already started as a teen/young adult rather than a kid because one movie was wasted without any sort of development in Anakin's fall making the final movie have to rush it. I'd already have Anakin showing some cracks with Palpatine more obviously an alternative mentor/surrogate father for Anakin to draw him away from the Jedi. Even with the Clone Wars series, I still don't really see the connective tissue between Anakin and Darth Vader so that could be better.

It's great that you've found enjoyment in them, but the prequel novelisations, as well as the Plagueis novel you mentioned, are no longer canon and are classed as Legends.
Who cares what's canon? None of it is real
 

Sagroth

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,835
Read the "Revenge of the Sith" novelization, too. It fixes a lot of the problems with the film.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Alternate thread: Say something positive about Attack of the Clones.

Ewan McGregor is hilarious in it. He carries that movie so hard, even if the haircut doesn't work.

I genuinely believe that moment where Anakin is like "we came to rescue you, master!" and Obi-Wan deadpans "good job" is one of the funniest scenes in any of the movies.
 

admiraltaftbar

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Banned
Dec 9, 2017
1,889
I would say that "the book actually tells a good story" more proves the failings of film rather than proves it was ambitious (or secretly good). Being unable to rely on character's internal dialogue is a shortcoming of film as a medium but one which a good script/director will navigate. Anakin comes off as a near incel-like character whose romance with Amidala is painful to watch precisely because of lack of onscreen chemistry or believable dialogue both of which could have been in the film and made it better. You can have the best story in the world but if it isn't adapted to film correctly it'll still be a terrible film.
 

Perfect Chaos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,335
Charlottesville, VA, USA
Idk that I'd say it "improves the film" as others have also noted, but it does shed light on some of the core ideas in the movie that actually are pretty cool when done better. I've been listening to A More Civilized Age as well, and it did kind of make me realize that my main issue with AOTC isn't just that it's not a good movie, but that it approaches ideas and concepts that are really fascinating and worth exploring, and then bungles them from all angles.

While the Clone Wars show helps do some work on this story, I don't think I'll ever appreciate it in quite the same way other people do - even though I really enjoy it - because it can't quite hit for me the same way a single, well-executed multi-hour film can.
 

dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,997
the obi wan noir detective stuff is genuinely quite fun until the mystery just... stops and never gets picked up again in RotS. it's so funny that it took SIX seasons of clone wars to pick that thread up again
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,160
I read the novel before the movie came out. The detective Obi-Wan subplot was the most interesting thing I can remember from the book. The novel proved there was a good story that didn't translate well to a movie.

The thing that always confused me while reading it was the "Sido-Dias" bit in the novel. It seemed like the intention was to make it Sidious but with the Cloners mispronouncing the name. The Clone Wars TV series expanded on this and made the Jedi who ordered the clones an entirely separate character.
The sifodias iirc is just George changing his mind originally it was the sith using a fake name but i think because of typo George decided its a jedi that did it
It's so convoluted
 

dyelawn91

Member
Jan 16, 2018
470
Read it before watching, so I was even more excited upon first viewing--was my first lesson that novel adaptations of upcoming movies are seldom indicative of the final product lol.
Same, and my beat to hell copy of the novel is still sitting proudly on one of my bookshelves. It was the first Star Wars novel I read and sparked many years of consuming EU material.
 

MarcelloF

Member
Dec 9, 2020
7,455
#ReleaseTheSalvatoreCut

You should read the Matt Stover ROTS novel. Really loved it. Though, it's admittedly been years since I've last read it.

As for positive things about AOTC, I actually like Dex's Diner and I think Besalisks are a cool alien race. Kamino was cool, too. I liked having a bit more of a sillier Yoda in the scene with the kids. I actually like the Anakin/Dooku duel, including the cutting the lights part.
 
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Samiya

Samiya

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 30, 2019
4,811
It's great that you've found enjoyment in them, but the prequel novelisations, as well as the Plagueis novel you mentioned, are no longer canon and are classed as Legends.

I apologize if this sounds rough, but this is a wrong approach to take and it comes across as a sort of Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons. Who cares what Disney decides is canon or not?

In my ideal prequel trilogy of better movies, Attack of Clones would be the start. I would prefer the trilogy encompass the Clone Wars with a movie covering the beginning, middle, and end so you can see the development of Anakin and the cost of the war on the galaxy. Plus I think it would be better if Anakin already started as a teen/young adult rather than a kid because one movie was wasted without any sort of development in Anakin's fall making the final movie have to rush it. I'd already have Anakin showing some cracks with Palpatine more obviously an alternative mentor/surrogate father for Anakin to draw him away from the Jedi. Even with the Clone Wars series, I still don't really see the connective tissue between Anakin and Darth Vader so that could be better.

Without a doubt, there is a lot to get introduced in AoTC that was never properly treated in TPM. Covering what you mentioned across two movies would probably help, but even in such a scenario, the problem would still be with the script and execution, something that an ideal prequel trilogy could only get fixed if Lucas deferred to other people besides only himself.

I mean, the droid factory action setpiece is really dumb and attests to how there was no one to say no to Lucas when he came up with dumb ideas that drags the movie down (such as the droid factory sequence being filmed and put in during post-production).

Read the "Revenge of the Sith" novelization, too. It fixes a lot of the problems with the film.

Thanks, I already did that back in 2005. Probably the best Star Wars novel I've read, at least top 5. Huge respect for Matt Stover for delivering the goods on that one.