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Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
No, it wasn't.

It was attempting to put lipstick on the same critique that we've seen throughout the thread: that the OP was somehow wrong, didn't actually play Sekiro, and that difficulty options are unacceptable.

Perhaps people should grow the fuck up instead of critiquing the OP who is intelligent enough to make decisions in the best interests of his time, who is able to identify what he does or does not enjoy and make those things work for him.
 

Leo-Tyrant

Member
Jan 14, 2019
5,081
San Jose, Costa Rica
No, it wasn't.

It was attempting to put lipstick on the same critique that we've seen throughout the thread: that the OP was somehow wrong, didn't actually play Sekiro, and that difficulty options are unacceptable.

Perhaps people should grow the fuck up instead of critiquing the OP who is intelligent enough to make decisions in the best interests of his time, who is able to identify what he does or does not enjoy and make those things work for him.

Agreed.

I think that my main critique to the "the devs should do whatever they want" argument is that, the existence of an easy (or hard) mode or options to customize it, would not change the "normal/default" experience.

A product with no way to customize it narrows the level of entry tremendously. Some may like this, because they were able to step up to the challenge, but everyone else, is left out.

Anecdote: A friend of mine could not enjoy God of War 2018 at the default difficulty. He dropped the whole thing. I told him to try again on easy, and he beat it and loved it. Why would this be different in Souls or Sekiro?
 

Moral Panic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
503
Not sure why people need positive affirmation for everything. If someone watches Bladerunner 2049 at 2x the speed, skipping Robin Wright scenes because they find her annoying, that's fine, doesn't effect me or my enjoyment in the slightest. But if they post about it on a discussion forum I'm allowed to say I think that's an incredibly poor way to experience that film, at least for my tastes — which isn't "gatekeeping" or snobbery. Live your life.

Said it better than I ever could.
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,585
Modding is a part of gaming, particularly PC gaming and has been for a long time. The modding community is large and vibrant and has provided some of the best experiences in gaming. Yes, From has a specific vision for what the difficulty should be as part of the experience. But if they are going to put a game out on PC, then there needs to be an acceptance from the creators and their biggest fans that their games will no existence in a vacuum and that the will inevitably take on the characteristics and standards of the platform they are on.

It's amazing how the biggest difficulty defenders of From's games actually doing their incredible work a disservice. And it's a damn shame. By getting upset that someone modded a game to better their enjoyment, you are essentially reducing the games to one aspect alone: the difficulty. And games like many pieces of are much more and can be appreciated on different levels. Maybe someone is looking to enjoy Seikiro's world, characters, the music. There are disabled gamers who may struggle with the challenge but wish to experience at least a part of what From has created. And then there's gamers who may wish to make the game even more challenging or add in new bosses or elements. Why aren't those people being criticized for not following the vision of the creators?

Good on you OP for finding ways to make a game more enjoyable to you. When I was diagnosed with an incurable disease, suffered significant nerve damage, ,lost feeling in my hands in feet, and started taking mind-effecting prescriptions, I changed some things about the way I game, whether it was changing the difficulty or modding, because I wanted to keep enjoying games and I sure as hell wasn't going to let some internet nerds devalue my experience.
 

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
8,933
Yeah it's weird how games like Hollow Knight and Cuphead don't have people constantly yelling for an easy mode.
Those are highly regarded, but they don't have quite the mainstream spotlight on them in the way the Souls series does.

The Souls games are painted as some of the decades most influential games. This can probably cause a bit if a FOMO effect when they're too difficult for some people.

That said, I'm not an advocate of an easy mode in Souls games. If you want to buy the games and mod in an easy mode, more power to you, but I prefer the base difficulty in the series to remain tough. It's what gives the series an identity and it's what helped foster a community around it.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
No, it wasn't.

It was attempting to put lipstick on the same critique that we've seen throughout the thread: that the OP was somehow wrong, didn't actually play Sekiro, and that difficulty options are unacceptable.

Perhaps people should grow the fuck up instead of critiquing the OP who is intelligent enough to make decisions in the best interests of his time, who is able to identify what he does or does not enjoy and make those things work for him.
I don't have a problem with what the OP did at all. I only have a problem when people push devs to change their vision of the game. I thought his/her post was fine.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,276
Where I disagree with a majority of y'all is how completing a game (or even lesser, beating a boss) is considered an "accomplishment".

lol, its simply entertainment.
 

Leviathan

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,065
Some people disagree with with OP =/= trash community. The game sold millions of copies, can't base an entire community off some people on a message board.
I am quite confident that you can fish just a little bit into that first page and find messages for which "disagreement" is far too mild a term.

Assuming your answer to my original question is that the community is not trash, then I thank you for answering my question, but if you are basing that on the application of a standard under which none of the messages on the first page are inappropriate, then I might have to wait for someone else's response.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,576
I am quite confident that you can fish just a little bit into that first page and find messages for which "disagreement" is far too mild a term.

Assuming your answer to my original question is that the community is not trash, then I thank you for answering my question, but if you are basing that on the application of a standard under which none of the messages on the first page are inappropriate, then I might have to wait for someone else's response.
If we set aside the usual memes and sarcastic "git gud" posts, what posts are you referring to here?

Not sure how anyone can possibly answer your inquiry regarding the community. How can you deduce what a whole community consists of based on a few posters? I mean you're free to generalize as you wish but I fail to see the point when you can engage with the community directly by visiting one of the OT's on here or some Discord server and build your own perception.

A whole community can't possibly answer for each individual. If you have a problem with a post, why not take it up with them directly.

Where I disagree with a majority of y'all is how completing a game (or even lesser, beating a boss) is considered an "accomplishment".

lol, its simply entertainment.
Why not both?
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Mar 29, 2018
7,078
No it really doesn't have to be repeated in every thread, because everyone is different, i and many others find them genuinely hard, harder than most games.

Also people who say the souls games aren't hard are often people who have played those games a lot and mastered them completely, anything gets easier with practice, i have a real hard time believing any person who played a souls game for the first time went "this isn't hard at all" and if you did congratulations, you are very skilled at videogames.
A) I never said nobody finds them hard. Of course lots of people do - but more importantly, the games are lumpy/uneven - some parts considered very easy, some considered very difficult. And it's whether you have the time or ability to surpass the latter which is the beef.

B) as I said right in that post, Ive never beaten a Souls game. I couldnt afford the time to master certain parts.

Unlike what you say, I AM NOT someone who has "mastered them completely," in fact, I'm pretty bad at them.

And I still firmly believe the "hard as nails" message is grossly overstated. You'll find tons of "normal" players saying this, not hardcore fans.

The games tend to have a couple of real proper ball-buster hard parts in each iteration - which will completely block many players - but outside of those parts they tend to be "uncompromising and fair" rather than "insanely, unfairly hard".
 

gogosox82

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,385
I get it, but bruh, if you have put 1000 hours into just dark souls 1, that makes you pretty damn hardcore. ;)

Maybe I played it a tad too much :)

Not ridiculous, just over the top to prove a point. Theoretically you could read up on those laws and still build your own house.

That point being not everyone wants to spend counteless hours trying to master something. There have been many games I simply gave up on because the difficulty spike was there and I didn't want to spend the time getting past it. Or I used help through a walkthrough or something. Not every game is fair either and could be the creators intent or a limitation in the hardware/technology.

The argument of get gud is just a polite way of saying don't like the game then get lost and stop whining. Elitism at its best instead of it's your game, you play it how you wish (which the latter you seem to agree on which is nice to hear).

Personally, my experience is that sometimes when people are having a hard time with the games, I will give them a few tips that I know are helpful. Sometimes that is misconstrued as being elitist when I was merely trying to help as I know it can be frustrating when you don't know where to go or what to do in a game. Like if you were playing souls and where stuck, if you went into souls era ot you would not be told "get gud". We are pretty helpful and friendly over there. Unfortunately, I cannot speak for the rest of the internet so if you asked questions on let's say reddit or a youtube comment section (god help you if you do this), I can imagine that experience being pretty shitty. It just seems like to me people who complain about get gud here that other places like twitter, reddit, youtube, or twitch and then a thread about souls pops up and everyone goes 'SOULS COMMUNITY SO TOXIC WITH THEIR GET GUD SHIT' and most of us and on here like where is this coming from?

It feels to me that its unfair to generalize the entire community with 'SOULS COMMUNITY SO TOXIC AND ELITIST' when no one in the souls ot would do that. Your holding us on era responsible for something some asshat on twitter or reddit said to you. That doesn't strike me as fair. Wouldn't it be better to just take it as a case by case basis and not broadly generalize an entire community especially here on era? Now I know there is one guy posting was saying it didn't count(which is crazy btw) but that's one poster and he's never posted in the souls ot that I can remember.

And just for the record so that we are clear. I'm totally fine with what the op did. After you buy the game, you can do whatever the hell you want with it. Mod it, burn in, re sell it , whatever. So i have no problem with him using cheat engine or mods that make the game easier. I liteally cannot play TES games without mods. Without mods, they are bad games I would never tell anyone to buy but with mods they are some of my favorite games. Modding is a part of gaming and pc gaming in particular and I will always supporting modding your single player game to do whatever you want with it even if i wouldn't do that.
 

Deleted member 46493

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
5,231
Not the same thing at all but I play a lot of "difficult" games while following a guide. For FROM games, it makes them less confusing and easier (e.g. FightingCowboy's video guides), but I still have to "get good" at some point. But I'm a weirdo who really enjoys following guides.
 

En-ou

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
Any game with cheats on is mad fun. Remember GoldenEye with invincibility and infinite ammo? But damn you had to earn them.
 

Chumunga64

Banned
Jun 22, 2018
14,230
Yeah, I get ya OP

when I'm done beating a game, I like doing fun runs

like when I get FFXV on PC, I'm sure as hell turning off health drain on royal arms cause they look super cool

and every playthrough of Dragon's Dogma even my "legit" runs where I use no other mods I always turn on unlimited sprint (not stamina, just sprint) cause I don't want moving to be a slog
 
Oct 31, 2017
14,991
i normally stay away from like trainers and mods and stuff for from games just because i'm paranoid about bans even if i'm not using them to grief people, so it just genuinely didn't occur to me to look earlier

Oh no I was just stating that to counteract anyone saying that stuff like this would take away from resources or something

Tho I cannot imagine an official Easy mode from them being actually really easy
 

Deleted member 15973

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,172
Oh no I was just stating that to counteract anyone saying that stuff like this would take away from resources or something

Tho I cannot imagine an official Easy mode from them being actually really easy
Bloodborne has an easy mode sort of by asking help from people and playing co-op. You can go through that game quick with co-op. Sekiro though didn't have any of that online stuff.
 
OP
OP
newmoneytrash

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
Oh no I was just stating that to counteract anyone saying that stuff like this would take away from resources or something

Tho I cannot imagine an official Easy mode from them being actually really easy
yeah, i agree. i think a real easy mode would skew much, much harder than this and i'd really love to see what they thought an easy version of their games looked like
 

En-ou

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
I missed that games no longer do this. I'm glad Resident Evil continues this tradition. Earning cheats are fun but nowadays you pay for cheats.
Omg I was saying this the other day. It adds so much replayabilty and makes the game double fun. Love that Resi2 did it. Interesting point - the only 2 games I plat last year was Sekiro and Resi2 lol
 
Nov 9, 2017
1,471
Réunion
I'd never tell a creator that they should change how they wanna make something. Let them make it.

Not that I want to personally respond to you, but I'd like to talk about what you have written up there, because it is a recurring theme in the discussion we're having right now and it would be good for all of us to truly identify what it is.

To criticize something, like a movie, a novel or a video game, to say "X shouldn't have been done", or "Y character was badly written", or "Z's ending was bad", is ultimately saying "they should/could have changed how they made something". It's a part of a critic. And we criticize all that we consume, be it clothes, a book or even food. Who has never criticize something?

From Software is not protected from those criticisms. The author's intent is not some kind of shelter that erase all need for that. Even the greatest masterpiece can be critized. Have you read the beginning of Les Misérables by Victor Hugo? I did and I skipped it, even though I do think Victor Hugo might be one of the greatest french novelist and poet. And believe me, as good as Miyazaki is, in my mind, he is far below Victor Hugo in terms of sheer talent.

The thing is that video games allow us to go farther and modify the game in itself. The game might become better, or worse, but it is a freedom we have.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,783
Are people STILL bringing up this "DONT TELL THEM WHAT TO DO!!!!!" shit?
You're allowed to criticize any other game. You can say a game would be better or worse if X or Y was removed or added and all is well but the very instant you do it with a From game you are accused of being some dictator literally going to From and demanding they do what you ask at gunpoint.

Nobody is MAKING From do anything. This is a video game forum that Miyazaki and crew don't even know exist. They are not going to see any of this and feel coerced into doing anything. This fake scenario you've invented in your head where all your favourite video games are changed at the demands of some evil force is a huge exaggeration.

One more time. Nobody is forcing them to do anything. Nobody is even TALKING to them right now.
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
Not that I want to personally respond to you, but I'd like to talk about what you have written up there, because it is a recurring theme in the discussion we're having right now and it would be good for all of us to truly identify what it is.

To criticize something, like a movie, a novel or a video game, to say "X shouldn't have been done", or "Y character was badly written", or "Z's ending was bad", is ultimately saying "they should/could have changed how they made something". It's a part of a critic. And we criticize all that we consume, be it clothes, a book or even food. Who has never criticize something?

From Software is not protected from those criticisms. The author's intent is not some kind of shelter that erase all need for that. Even the greatest masterpiece can be critized. Have you read the beginning of Les Misérables by Victor Hugo? I did and I skipped it, even though I do think Victor Hugo might be one of the greatest french novelist and poet. And believe me, as good as Miyazaki is, in my mind, he is far below Victor Hugo in terms of sheer talent.

The thing is that video games allow us to go farther and modify the game in itself. The game might become better, or worse, but it is a freedom we have.

I think it's possible to critique while respecting a creator's freedom to do something how best makes sense to them, even - and perhaps especially - when those choices fly in the face of commonly accepted wisdom. I don't doubt that there were voices during the development of Dark Souls who argued the game needed to be more accessible to reach a wider audience (more obvious tutorials, way point markers, mini-maps, difficulty options), but the ultimate refusal was probably to the overall benefit of the franchise.

Some things that some people make utterly baffle me, but if they're not forcing them on anyone and they're not hurting anyone, I can't see a reason to police it, even if I think it's utterly broken, senseless and without merit. You're free to offer them feedback, critique, whatever, but don't think you're entitled to offer more than a recommendation.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Are people STILL bringing up this "DONT TELL THEM WHAT TO DO!!!!!" shit?
You're allowed to criticize any other game. You can say a game would be better or worse if X or Y was removed or added and all is well but the very instant you do it with a From game you are accused of being some dictator literally going to From and demanding they do what you ask at gunpoint.

Nobody is MAKING From do anything. This is a video game forum that Miyazaki and crew don't even know exist. They are not going to see any of this and feel coerced into doing anything. This fake scenario you've invented in your head where all your favourite video games are changed at the demands of some evil force is a huge exaggeration.

One more time. Nobody is forcing them to do anything. Nobody is even TALKING to them right now.
There's a difference between having criticisms of a certain game mechanic and wanting a devs core design philosophy to change for seflish reasons.

In the past we had people call From Soft devs assholes, ableist or other nonsense for not caving to their demands. Nothing fake about that.
yeah, i agree. i think a real easy mode would skew much, much harder than this and i'd really love to see what they thought an easy version of their games looked like
And then people would ask for an easy mode thats actually easy.
 

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,677
England
I generally play through games "as intended", but I would never begrudge anybody if they choose not to. I wouldn't be able to play this game as I read that it is dependent on parrying - something I am useless at and get no sense of fulfilment for mastering. Absolutely all power to you if you have the tools and the inclination to unlock a game for youself.

However, I also agree with developers making a game with a vision and style as intended. Even if it is a single minded and particular vision. I've had to nope out of a few games because they just are not accessible for me, but that is ok.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,246
I played and beat Sekiro on the PS4 when it came out.
That being said, if I ever replayed it I would definitely replay it on the PC with a mod like the OP used.
I'm currently replaying DS3 with some CheatEngine shenanigans and it's a ton of fun.
 

Lashes.541

Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,749
Roseburg Oregon
I wish I was a pc gamer, I absolutely loved sekiro. But my reflex are not fast enough for it. If I could I would keep everything the same and just make the deflect a little bit longer for myself, I some how managed to get all the way to the owl fight on top of the castle. But after months of trying to beat him...even using cheese tactics I gave up on the game. I'm just physically not capable of going any farther.
 

Cokie Bear

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,944
Because the souls games are hard, no matter what the most hardcore fans say, relatively speaking compared to the average videogame, for the average player, the dark souls games are objectively harder.

Objectively harder than what though? Difficulty isn't a straight line. EG, I found the higher difficulties in Metal Gear Rising to be much harder than Dark Souls, which I'm currently playing through for the first time. You can't really compare the difficulty of games in that way, because not all games are 'difficult' in the same way. I find XCOM to be difficult, to the point where I've never been able to complete a run (still love it though) but I don't think most people would argue that XCOM is harder than Dark Souls.

I'm not finding Dark Souls to be difficult at all, at least not in the nightmarish sense that people try to paint it as. I've died a ton because I got greedy or made a stupid mistake, but the game is so open that if I'm struggling in one area there's almost always another path I can explore. I still feel like I'm always making progress and making my way through the game.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the souls games are 'Objectively harder'. What's that based on? Number of deaths?
 

Aswitch

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,118
Los Angeles, CA
As long as you got something out of it. It's obviously not the intended experience but if you enjoyed yourself then that's what matters most. Personally I couldn't do it even if a from software game incorporates an easy mode i'd still play at the hardest specifically for from software games. I'm more lenient on others.
 
Nov 9, 2017
1,471
Réunion
It's possible to critique while respecting a creator's freedom to do something how best makes sense to them...

I agree with with that. After all, we're just consumers; the creator is utimately the last person to make the decision. But what baffles me is the argument "the author's intent is sacred", because we all do offer criticism at one point of our life, and a criticism is by nature a recommandation, an advice of some sort, something that we would like to see change. To say something can't be changed in a From game, when we all say the opposite everytime is, well, stupid. So, what is an acceptable criticism? When do we have a legitimacy to say that something should change, and when is it not the case?

For example, something that I always hated in DS1 is the fact that your character would still do a dodge after a failed attempt to do it. It is one of my main criticism of that game, and author's intent or not, I hated it the first time I saw it, and I still hate it today.

I'm not really advocating for an easy mode. I wouldn't mind it, but I also don't really care about it. It would be a nice addition, but I can also play those games without it. I'm just lazy, so most of the time the less effort I have to make, the happier I am. Although I really would like to see a lot of sliders in every game that I play, I like options, I like to be able to customize my games, like in a 4X for example, where you can change how many AI will be present, the difficulty for each of them, the ressources available, the size of the map, if they're your allies or not, the presence and number of neutral forces, the possibility to create your own map, etc.
 
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Corrie1960

Banned
Mar 19, 2019
1,888
Good for you OP you bought the game and and you should play it the way you want not what others want

have fun :)
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
So, what is an acceptable criticism? When do we have a legitimacy to say that something should change, and when is it not the case?

Honestly, all criticism is permissible I think. The freedom of a creator to do as they see fit only makes sense in world where others have the same freedom to present critique, offer better alternatives or completely disregard the work altogether.

The only thing I'd contest (and it's a bit nit-picky) is the implication that there's a time at which something should change. The creator's freedom - unless it's doing harm to another - is sacred insofar as they should never be compelled to change anything unless they see good reason. That isn't to say a creator should never change their mind, or on-board sensible feedback (a good creator learns as they go), it's simply that they should never be pressured into doing so.

Personally, I couldn't get along with Sekiro; I tried it, played a good few hours and hit a point where I realised it wasn't for me. I have my criticisms, but I wouldn't necessary expect the developer to change it for me and, honestly, I'm not sure they should. As it stands, it's an interesting, relatively unique experiment in the modern space. Its major successes, its uncompromising design and its many imperfections serve to stimulate interesting conversation about the medium and I think there's massive value in that.

I feel the same way about Breath of the Wild, The Witcher III and RDR2 - none are perfect and even their most ardent champions would have things they'd like to see tweaked and revised if not completely changed.

I can understand the frustration of having a love-hate relationship with a game (I get it often enough) and the temptation to say that if enough people feel strongly about an aspect that it should be changed. But then another part of me (the artist and the writer) says "no, imperfections have their own reason to exist." I know there are special exceptions with games, that certain decisions can completely exclude certain people from enjoying them, but then you get this with films too with people who are particularly sensitive to violence, for example - I wouldn't tell a film director they need to take out the violence, so everyone can enjoy it, and I wouldn't necessarily want to say the same to FromSoft about difficulty in their games.

I'm sure at this stage Miyazaki is aware that his attitude to difficulty limits the broader appeal his games might have and I can only assume that he - and those who employ him - have decided that it's a worthwhile compromise, because - across three different publishers in four years - the games have arguably gotten harder.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,783
There's a difference between having criticisms of a certain game mechanic and wanting a devs core design philosophy to change for seflish reasons.
What exactly is that difference? Both are ultimately pointing out a flaw in how the game is designed based entirely on a personal definition of what a flaw is. More importantly what makes one more or less valid then the other? Mechanics can be flawed, Philosophies can be flawed. Pointing out those flaws is going to be detriment by ones "selfish" definition of what does and doesn't constitute a flaw.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
What exactly is that difference? Both are ultimately pointing out a flaw in how the game is designed based entirely on a personal definition of what a flaw is. More importantly what makes one more or less valid then the other? Mechanics can be flawed, Philosophies can be flawed. Pointing out those flaws is going to be detriment by ones "selfish" definition of what does and doesn't constitute a flaw.

At this point we're just going to have people disagree about what a flaw is, though, especially since this flaw in particular is what other people consider to be a selling-point for these games. It's not like other "flaws" people talk about; a great number of people prefer the games to be this way, unlike busted joystick deadzones or bad hitboxes that no one is clamoring to keep around. It's more of a preference than a flaw, and that's why it's so contentious.