• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
OP
OP
SilverX

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,015
Frieza didn't change.

Heck, Frieza coming back and just going right back to his evil overlord ways with everyone just going "Eh, we'll get to that eventually" is one of the weirdest parts of Super.

The whole ToP was a tremendous step forward for Frieza. At times it was clear that there was far less of a hatred for Goku when that was literally what drove him for more than a decade.

He wants Goku and Vegeta out of the picture because they are what is stopping him from ruling the universe, but Frieza literally wants to use Dragon Balls to make him 5 inches taller at this point.... he seems to be far less villainous than he ever was now.

I would argue Bulma changed Vegeta, Fat Buu was never really evil to start with, and Frieza is the same as always. He just knows he can't easily outpower everyone else like before

Nah, his whole experience with Goku and witnessing everything that went down on Namek altered him completely. He had no desire to hurt anyone on Earth and actually let Bulma take him in when Goku was MIA. Before that he would have easily used the Dragon Balls and killed everyone right after lol.

And as I said, Frieza is different now despite being on the path of "evil". Him teaming up with everyone in the ToP and trusting them with his existence just can't be forgotten. But Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta, Hit, and Jiren are proof enough how much impact he has on the people he comes across and changes them.
 
OP
OP
SilverX

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,015
When Goku let Vegeta Go, he acknowledged it was wrong and selfish
in Super, he doesn't seem to understand that

He absolutely does. He had no idea Zamasu was a psychopath and that the ToP would end up being a fight where every universe that loses would be destroyed (when it was established it was too late). Its even revealed that Goku's actions SAVED the universes that were going to be destroyed regardless before any tournament was planned. All that people remember though are the characters freaking out at Goku for being responsible for a tournament with such high stakes happening though lol

I liked Goku up until the Buu arc. He's pretty serious throughout the saiyan and frieza arcs, and he maintains that through cell.

In fact in the Cell saga he becomes even smarter and more strategic, realizing his power limits and seeing the potential in Gohan. He plays 5d chess and trains Gohan knowing he's earth's only hope, and even fights Cell first to see just how powerful Cell is, and to give Gohan a chance to see him fight.

It was a perfect end to his character arc IMO, he does what he set out to do and then sacrifices himself for the betterment of the planet, and passes the mantle of protector to his son.

And then all that just got thrown out the window afterwards.

Nah, Goku spent a whole year training Gohan and didn't realize he had no control over the depths of his power and didn't have the nature of a real fighter. Not only that, but he actually gave Cell a Senzu Bean knowing how skilled he was as a fighter and the extent of his regeneration abilities. He was basically hoping that Gohan would be backed into a corner and go all out on Cell, not even considering he could die in the process. Hell he found out while Gohan was getting slapped around that he didn't even want to be fighting there.

It was a terrible plan and it backfired big as it cost him (as well as King Kai and Co.) his life. Gohan wasn't fit for what he intended, the power made him cocky (twice if you count when he fights Buu) and he barely defeated Cell after how wrong everything went.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,792
People keep bringing this up as if writing gag manga in the past means everything you do is a gag. The Pokemon mangaka did hentai before (Toshihiro Ono). It doesn't mean anything
That is not what I mean when I say that Toriyama did gag manga before.
I'm saying Dragon Ball is part gag manga.
I don't think Toshihiro Ono is making a ecchi Pokemon manga where you can loads of stuffs like that in his books.
Dragon Ball is littered with gag manga panels right up to the Buu Arc.

The very author that explain Jacky Chan expie fighting Krillin with a peculiar gag manga nonsense is the same one that wrote the rest of Dragon Ball and it shows.
Again arguably the Cell arc is the most serious Dragon Ball ever was.
 

MetatronM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,851
Goku is basically the villain of the Universe Survival arc in Super and everyone knows it except him.
 

Pankratous

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,253
jihrkjv.jpg


Bring back serious Goku
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,639
Goku has hit mascot status. And once a character hits mascot status, they lose a lot of the things. Their development is often one of those things.
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
Was rewatching Kai yesterday. There is nothing more satisfying than watching the complete ass whoopings vegeta took against 18 and Cell. He literally has 0 redeeming qualities in the android and cell sagas. Watching 18 smash him to pieces was awesome.

Goku being dumb just makes the story make no sense. It isnt interesting.
It makes sense because he would be a ruthless, savage killer by default but the head bump changed that. Being dumb was a package deal. Vegeta's arc was more natural for his species but he's just not as likeable as good old Goku.

It could be more interesting if they explored that aspect beyond fish out of water jokes but it would also be a lot less funny.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,228
One scene that randomly stuck out to me in that was Frieza killing Broly's father to force a rage power-up. I feel like if Super Goku was as stupid as people say he is, he would have bought Frieza's line that it was a tragic accident, but he knew right away what Frieza did. It's not like, a big deal or anything, just something that popped into my head as I was watching it.


Qf6MCF.gif


Arguably the most pathos in any one OP scene in a series full of them. Been rewatching the anime on Netflix and Arlong Park is just as good as ever.
Super Goku is as dumb as people say he is, but his stupidity because it's used for padding rather than being a character quirk. There's no such room for padding in a movie.

Super Goku just isn't written as well as he was even in the Buu saga, let alone the movies.
 

PAFenix

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 21, 2019
14,659
I feel like it's not that people are biased or just have the og dub memory of "savior Goku" and comparing him to Super. Kai kinda brought Goku back in line into the "author's intent".

It just feels like his mannerisms have been amped up to 11 once Super hit.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,684
I don't mind a idiot hero, but Goku goes too far. Specially when they are planet busting level minimum now. Luffy is the perfect evolution, he is naive but knows when shit is serious
Luffy is one of the more boring shonen protagonists.
I feel like it's not that people are biased or just have the og dub memory of "savior Goku" and comparing him to Super. Kai kinda brought Goku back in line into the "author's intent".

It just feels like his mannerisms have been amped up to 11 once Super hit.
Give me that 11 all day. At least I'm entertained then.
 

ash32121

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,563
Goku in the OG DB was written like a character that growing, come to DBZ, that shit came to a fucking halt, Goku acts like a dumbass most of the time, then Super happen, and now he just a fucking idiot.

Remember in the OG DB, Goku actually kills Piccolo.
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,844
Funny, I never got the impression Goku was just an all around dumbass until Dragonball transitioned into Z.

I love Z, but Goku becoming a flanderized version of his child self is what I dislike about it most.
 

Deleted member 4461

User Requested Account Deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,010
I agree with this mostly. Like I think Deku does have a flavor and he has an obsessive nature and it comes through, but yeah I'll agree with this.

Deku would be more interesting if A) he analyzed stuff like he did when he could barely use his quirk and B) if they played up how his personality was influenced by Bakugo.

You get like, once when he fights Bakugo for the second time how he starts being meaner and such when his desire to win becomes strong. After that...???
 

I am a Bird

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,233
The only thing more controversial than goku is which of his soundtracks is better.

also never really had a problem with goku's personality granted I haven't seen much of super though.
 
OP
OP
SilverX

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,015
jihrkjv.jpg


Bring back serious Goku

1. That was to stop Majin Vegeta from slaughtering people in the stands at the World Tournament
2. Super Saiyan Goku and beyond are like "serious Goku" mode by default

We get plenty of serious Goku in Super too by that standard

074ABB14E5930D5638856B2C163C46E393ABCF89


Goku in the OG DB was written like a character that growing, come to DBZ, that shit came to a fucking halt, Goku acts like a dumbass most of the time, then Super happen, and now he just a fucking idiot.

Remember in the OG DB, Goku actually kills Piccolo.

And Vegeta is a goof who can prepare entertaining meals for deities and wears an apron in the kitchen/for chores in Super. At this point we should appreciate how the characters are not afraid to be humorous. Piccolo was mostly Pan's babysitter outside of training Gohan too even.

Also, Goku straight up kills Frieza in Super to prevent him from destroying the Earth after the Whis rewind.
 

Deleted member 30544

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Nov 3, 2017
5,215
If I was a newcomer nowadays, i would not be able to stand Goku, he is like, the Homer of Anime.

I tolerate him in Super because well, he is my pre-teen years. But today would get aggravating (and boring)
 

Riskbreaker23

Member
Oct 27, 2017
104
People give Goku a lot of shit for trying to give his enemies a second chance when all of his current friends were his enemies at one point. Bulma (who was orginally just using to him to collect the dragon balls), roshi, and krillin (who didn't even like goku at first) are the only exceptions. Goku tries to show mercy because it has worked out for him in the past.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
The only thing more controversial than goku is which of his soundtracks is better.

also never really had a problem with goku's personality granted I haven't seen much of super though.

> OP: "Something that has been running strong since Dragon Ball Super is the divisive reception of Goku."
> I am a Bird: "never really had a problem with goku's personality granted I haven't seen much of super though."

...
 

Listai

50¢
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,662
I feel like it's not that people are biased or just have the og dub memory of "savior Goku" and comparing him to Super. Kai kinda brought Goku back in line into the "author's intent".

It just feels like his mannerisms have been amped up to 11 once Super hit.

Exactly, Super pushed it too far in that direction but his portrayal in the English dub of Z is so much worse.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
Super Goku just didn't feel like DB/DBZ Goku. He reminded me more of a goofy, cartoony version of his old self. As if Goku was just a gimmick. In Dragon Ball Goku was endearingly dumb, in Super he was just annoying. Basically something you air on saturday mornings. Might also be due to all the dumb filler in Super.

Essentially Goku didn't feel like an adult anymore. You can feel that this is not written by Toriyama in his prime.
Goku doing reckless or selfish shit is not out of character tho. That's part of who he is.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
35,584
Isn't this only controversial in the West?

I doubt anyone in Japan is flipping their lid about Goku being an idiot hero.
 

thetrin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,646
Atlanta, GA
He has the Miles Morales problem, everyone overshadows him and he has no personal flavor. Not a bad character but nothing really stands out about him. They should really play up his knack for analyzing quirks.
Totally agree with this. They play into it early on, but I wish they went back to that well more often, because his smarts in analyzing quirks could be a great character aspect, and it would set him apart.
 

Merc_

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,531
Deku would be more interesting if A) he analyzed stuff like he did when he could barely use his quirk and B) if they played up how his personality was influenced by Bakugo.

You get like, once when he fights Bakugo for the second time how he starts being meaner and such when his desire to win becomes strong. After that...???
The strange thing about Deku is that at first it felt like they were going to make him into a hero in the vein of Batman with no actual powers. Honestly, he'd probably have ended up a more interesting character if they had.

As for Goku, these threads always make me feel like people only half paid attention to Super or never really watched it as Goku is still the same character he's always been. The fact that people still get mad at him over the ToP only reinforces the that feeling.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,377
When Goku let Vegeta Go, he acknowledged it was wrong and selfish
in Super, he doesn't seem to understand that
I feel like this is mostly an issue with Toei's script writers wanting to play down Goku's selfish actions, so they avoid focusing on them. Look at his speech about disliking the Super Saiyan God power up because it wasn't something he could achieve by himself in the BoGs movie, which had Toriyama in direct talks with the script writer to the point of completely changing the movie's plot, that then gets completely removed from the BoGs anime arc, in spite of the tv arc being longer. After several staff changes, it felt like anime Tournament of Power Goku did get more focus on those elements though.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
I don't even think Goku as an idiot hero is necessarily bad, especially as it occasionally borders on actual villainy, but there has to be a character to keep him in check. I keep expecting Vegeta become the actual gilded hero that Goku started off as the more he becomes accustomed to earth and figures out what he wants to do in a universe where he is (supposed to be) probably second strongest. But then they don't want to make too much of a joke of Vegeta....it's tough.

Honestly, and this is probably offbase, but I feel like someone at Shueisha saw TFS's popularity and how much people were jelling with it and slowly started pushing Goku in that direction. The "oh no I forgot my tractor aaaah" joke feels like it's ripped right out of a DBZA episode.

The same DBZA that Shueisha copyright strikes left, right and centre? The same company that told Funimation they can't work with those guys when the latter wanted to or gave the TFS team a small role in Kai and they were edited out?
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
"Goku has always been an Idiot" is a funny take when he's the only Z fighter able to put two brain cells together and come up with actual solutions to problems.

How to become even stronger with Super Saiyan? Master is so that it's energy consumption is too low, something Vegeta was too stupid to grasp. He's the only one to realize that Gohan was the only one capable of demolishing Cell at his full power. Him giving Cell the Senzu bean showcased his arrogance, not his stupidity. His "flaw" in that arc was not understanding his son on a fundamental level.

In the Buu arc he teaches the boys Fusion and is constantly making executive decisions because everyone else is either too incompetent, malicious or outright stupid to be of use (Good job reviving people who will inevitably killed again Yamcha, very smart). He has to hold back against his fight with Vegeta instead of going all out with Super Saiyan 3 because that form cuts into his time on Earth. He even decides to bribe Old Kai with sexy pics of Bulma and not his own wife, because by his own admission "Vegeta's wife is hotter than mine"

Z Goku = / Super Goku, no matter how much people try to spin it.

However, having actually watched Super... There's honestly merit to Super's approach to Goku. He's more "fun" and closer in spirit to what Akira Toriyama initially intended. Toriyama made Goku too pragmatic during the course of the original Dragon Ball run. And since Goku is dumber, it gives other characters a chance around him to shine, instead of uselessly following his orders like before.

I actually found the filler episodes to be pretty enjoyable because of him. Of course he's unforgivably stupid during parts of the Goku Black arc (where he comes across as infantile and incapable of taking things seriously) but for the most part he's actually kind of charming. And they struck an excellent balance during the tournament of power arc, finally hitting that sweetspot between endearingly stupid and serious when the situation calls for it
 

BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,275
I've enjoyed it. Played straight, he'd be more like Superman. But I like that his drive is his excitement to fight strong people. That's it. He just happens to be a good person.

And slowly but surely, Super is addressing his bad habits. The latest arc is very interesting too. I wanted it to go in this direction for years.
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
Dragonball has been bullshit from the start. The author stopped caring about the stakes at some point a long time ago, and seems to just use the action as a time killer in between the jokes that he really enjoys writing.
This isn't bad, you just need to accept this is a comedy first.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,694
I legit feel like I'm being gaslit when people say that Goku was the exact same in DBZ/Kai as he was in Super, but the English dub made me blind to it.

No. I watched Kai, subbed and dubbed, as an adult. Goku in that is great, and he's legit written to be more stupid and annoying in Super. If that's your thing, then that's your thing. But don't lie to me to support your tastes. Say you simply enjoy Goku not knowing how to count.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
Even when he is serious, he still does something stupid like letting Frieza go 100%.

Ask yourself why he let Frieza go to 100% fully knowing that even at his peak Frieza was no match for him

He wanted to humiliate him. Same with Cell. Super Goku never wants to humiliate anyone, which isn't a bad thing, but his arrogance was a legitimate character flaw he used to have
 

Merc_

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,531
Ask yourself why he let Frieza go to 100% fully knowing that even at his peak Frieza was no match for him

He wanted to humiliate him. Same with Cell. Super Goku never wants to humiliate anyone, which isn't a bad thing, but his arrogance was a legitimate character flaw he used to have
Goku is still arrogant though? I mean Whis even comments on it being a consistent flaw of his fighting style.
 

PAFenix

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 21, 2019
14,659
I legit feel like I'm being gaslit when people say that Goku was the exact same in DBZ/Kai as he was in Super, but the English dub made me blind to it.

No. I watched Kai, subbed and dubbed, as an adult. Goku in that is great, and he's legit written to be more stupid and annoying in Super. If that's your thing, then that's your thing. But don't lie to me to support your tastes. Say you simply enjoy Goku not knowing how to count.

 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I think everyone understands now that Goku has been Like This forever, and the question is if Super, in restoring Toriyama's canon vision of Goku, went too far to prove its point.

I think Super Goku is fine, and if Z had the comedy bent we're going with now (and sorta did in OG Dragon Ball) we'd get much the same scenarios. DBZ is airtight with its pacing to a fault where Goku is always jumping from one world shattering adventure to the next.

Frankly I just find very little interesting about DBZ after the Saiyan Saga, and Super has been a marked improvement.
 
Last edited:

NuclearCake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,867
This might be partially related to the fact that Super flanderized every character in the cast. The best thing is to just ignore that Super ever happened.

I did like the Broly movie and Battle of Gods was fun, but everything else was not worth bringing DB back for.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
Goku is still arrogant though? I mean Whis even comments on it being a consistent flaw of his fighting style.

Sorta, but it's more "I underestimate my opponent and let my guard down" and less "I want to humiliate my opponent and crush their spirit, which is wrong and fucked up"

The intent is very different. Gohan similarly suffered from this vs Cell and it cost him big time
 

Funkybee

Member
Feb 20, 2019
2,243
Why do people keep saying that Goku is an idiot?

He was the only one who knew about Gohan's ridiculous power if triggered in Cell saga. He even fought Cell knowing he had no chance, but it was only to give a preview to Gohan and he even asked Gohan if he thought they were doing seriously or not, and Gohan's reply confirmed Goku's thoughts.

Yes he does go beyond logic at times because he loves to fight stronger opponents but this has been stated over and over that sayians evolve as they are fighting. Even in DBS Vegeta makes a speech out of this. Even in DBS Broly movie, Broly reached peak in a matter of minutes(for the purpose of the movies length but still).

And many other times that Goku has been taking actions which were baffling and very risky/stupid to others in the plot but that at the end it proved Goku's hidden plans and such.

Socially he is dumb, we all know that. But i think that is common in shonen main characters.

Goku gets serious AF when he has to.
 
OP
OP
SilverX

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,015
"Goku has always been an Idiot" is a funny take when he's the only Z fighter able to put two brain cells together and come up with actual solutions to problems.

How to become even stronger with Super Saiyan? Master is so that it's energy consumption is too low, something Vegeta was too stupid to grasp. He's the only one to realize that Gohan was the only one capable of demolishing Cell at his full power. Him giving Cell the Senzu bean showcased his arrogance, not his stupidity. His "flaw" in that arc was not understanding his son on a fundamental level.

In the Buu arc he teaches the boys Fusion and is constantly making executive decisions because everyone else is either too incompetent, malicious or outright stupid to be of use (Good job reviving people who will inevitably killed again Yamcha, very smart). He has to hold back against his fight with Vegeta instead of going all out with Super Saiyan 3 because that form cuts into his time on Earth. He even decides to bribe Old Kai with sexy pics of Bulma and not his own wife, because by his own admission "Vegeta's wife is hotter than mine"

Z Goku = / Super Goku, no matter how much people try to spin it.

However, having actually watched Super... There's honestly merit to Super's approach to Goku. He's more "fun" and closer in spirit to what Akira Toriyama initially intended. Toriyama made Goku too pragmatic during the course of the original Dragon Ball run. And since Goku is dumber, it gives other characters a chance around him to shine, instead of uselessly following his orders like before.

I actually found the filler episodes to be pretty enjoyable because of him. Of course he's unforgivably stupid during parts of the Goku Black arc (where he comes across as infantile and incapable of taking things seriously) but for the most part he's actually kind of charming. And they struck an excellent balance during the tournament of power arc, finally hitting that sweetspot between endearingly stupid and serious when the situation calls for it

And in Super he

1. Figures out the way to find out how to become a Super Saiyan God by using the Dragon Balls to ask Shenron, if not Beerus would have blown up the Earth.

2. He, along with Vegeta, realized that they could actually hit a Super Saiyan level of the SSG form shortly after their use of divine energy

3. Learned how to beat Hit's time skip even in his base form.

4. Was able to use Kaioken while in his Super Saiyan Blue form even though he said he wasn't sure it'd work and would probably blow him up.

5. Used the Zeno button to save the timelines from Zamasu after he became an unstoppable force

6. Came up with the plan to have Frieza as the 10th fighter for ToP

7. Achieved full Ultra Instinct by the end of the ToP

Every single Arc in Super is resolved because of Goku in some way

Beerus - He enjoyed the fight with Goku s much where he pretended to fall asleep and spare Earth

Golden Frieza - With the help of Whis, he is able to kill Frieza before he blows up the Earth

Tournament of Destroyers - Changed Hit where he actually threw the fight with Monaka so that U7 could win

Zamasu - Summons Zeno to restart Trunks' timeline after it was ruined

Tournament of Power - He and Frieza knock Jiren out, and 17 is left standing. Both Frieza and 17 would have never joined if it weren't for him either.

While he is dumber and immature for comedy in the lighter moments, he is actually more clever than his Z self where it counts

I legit feel like I'm being gaslit when people say that Goku was the exact same in DBZ/Kai as he was in Super, but the English dub made me blind to it.

No. I watched Kai, subbed and dubbed, as an adult. Goku in that is great, and he's legit written to be more stupid and annoying in Super. If that's your thing, then that's your thing. But don't lie to me to support your tastes. Say you simply enjoy Goku not knowing how to count.

Goku's nature is the same, but he is different in each series. Just the same as most people are different in college from how they were in high school. You can't look at Goku on Namek fighting Frieza and then look at him after he has been through tons of other events and expect to see

You have to take into account that Goku in Super has the power of a god. Both he and Vegeta are guilty of not taking any threat seriously because of it. Frieza is back and more powerful than ever? Goku and Vegeta were arguing over who gets to fight him and be the one to defeat him. Beerus and Champa want a tournament where the Earth is on the line? Goku and Vegeta are sure they are going to have no trouble. Trunks says that an evil Goku is destroying his timeline? Hell even Trunks isn't worried when he sees SSB Vegeta. Tournament where only one universe survives? Vegeta is sure he will win and that he and Goku in their SSB form will mop the floor with the fighters there, so much that he thought Frieza being recruited was embarrassing for Goku.

Also, the dumbness is purely for the lighthearted comedy moments. You can find it irritating and feel it makes it hard to watch, but it is the sense of humor the show has and the style of comedy they feel fit. I'd see your point if Goku forgot who he was fighting or left in the middle of a fight to watch a puppet show, but he is very serious when fighting. Look at how he reacts to Zamasu and Goku Black when they tell him how they killed Chichi and Goten. Thats the same guy who didn't know what kissing was.