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thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
Felt like this subject deserves its own thread, even though there's a Below OT, but I think someone needs to raise awareness because after playing more and more of it, I really feel like Below is a diamond in the rough.

If you've already tried Below, you know that it can be insanely punishing, more than probably any other game you've played in the past decade or so. But I remember when Demon's Souls came out and game journalists didn't quite know what to make of it - It was so different than all the other stuff on the market (Remember, we were in the 'Prince of Persia 2008 days...), it was seen as being brutally difficult, way too punishing, etc. - But then folks on the old GAF started to spread the love and more and more people got converted and tried it out... and we all slowly understood that there's true genius hidden behind its initially rough facade.

I would argue that a similar thought process should be applied to Below. Yes, it has some questionable design decisions that make the game quite frustrating at times, but Below, to me, very much feels like playing Zelda 1 as a child. It doesn't explain itself, it wants you to figure things out by yourself. It draws you into its world that is brilliantly atmospheric and visually often stunning to look at. And it shits on current gameplay conventions and is brave enough to just do its own thing.

I'm not saying that this is a game that'll appeal to everyone, far from it, but Below currently has a below 70 Metacritic Rating and I really think some journalists just can't look beyond the difficulty. To me, so far (I'm only 10 levels in, mind you), this is one of the most interesting games that released in 2018. It's entirely possible that you'll try it out and will also just want to tear your hair out, but if you really give it a chance, it's hard not to notice that there's something incredibly compelling behind its daunting outer shell.

The game is on GamePass, so if you haven't tried it yet and own GamePass, you owe it to yourself to give the game a chance. Nevermind the Metacritic rating, make up your own mind. You might just be surprised by what Capy built here.
 

Phawx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
365
Agreed.

Would also recommend people dive into it and explore the systems without looking up stuff on the net. Figuring shit out is all the fun.
 

nasirum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,833
Somewhere
I think it really falls flat with readability (I could barely tell what my character even was) and the survival mechanics.

It's not that it's hard, it's that a lot of it doesn't gel with the core of the game for me.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
I've played through most of it and don't agree it should be compared to the way Souls was. It does some neat things, but just because a game can be difficult doesn't make it good or the equivalent of Souls.

I think a much better comparison you should make op would be Hollow Knight. Another indie game that didn't get the recognition it deserved at launch due to its small launch and more difficult nature. It wasn't until it started getting it's console releases and game changes that it really took off. Below has a head start for being given away for free with games pass, but there are many facets to the game that I feel hold it back from greatness.
 
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vlaar

Banned
Sep 23, 2018
496
I'm still watching the opening sequence.

Joking aside, maybe you're right. But something doesn't quite click to me, or better yet, clicked. Which is why I refunded it.
 

Liliana

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,375
NYC
Agree. Can't believe it's a day one release on Game Pass, like Ashen. I still have no idea wtf some of those achievements for certain endings are for.
 

R.T Straker

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,715
I really, really wanted to like and play the game but I just can't due to the fact how small everything is, making it unplayable.

On my 4k screen you can barely see your MC.
 
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MillionIII

Banned
Sep 11, 2018
6,816
I plan to play it for sure. I hope that It's as good as you say, souls are really special games.
 

Sargerus

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,859
So i should wait for a spiritual successor that it will be better in every way? Okay, thanks.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
there is no "next demons souls". there is souls, and there are the games that took inspiration from it to create the genre of soulslikes. Nioh is the best soulslike game there is, but its not souls. Below isnt either.
 

mescalineeyes

Banned
May 12, 2018
4,444
Vienna
Lol no with all due respect Mr Ori, Below is awful and unnecessarily obtuse. Unlike demons souls which was necessarily obtuse and interesting.

Looks and sounds sick tho
 
OP
OP
thomasmahler

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
there is no "next demons souls". there is souls, and there are the games that took inspiration from it to create the genre of soulslikes. Nioh is the best soulslike game there is, but its not souls. Below isnt either.

Duh. I didn't compare it to Souls or said it's a Soulslike or anything of the kind. I said, similar to Demon's Souls, it's a diamond in the rough that people should check out.
 

honest_ry

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,288
I was excited for it but was totally disappointed and I will never go back.

Can appreciate why people would like it but it has too many issues for me personally.

Also, a meta critic rating of 70 is decent.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,413
there is no "next demons souls". there is souls, and there are the games that took inspiration from it to create the genre of soulslikes. Nioh is the best soulslike game there is, but its not souls. Below isnt either.

Did you not misunderstand what he was arguing? It isn't about similarity in gameplay, but about what kind of release we are witnessing. He is talking general reception due to unfamiliarity with a new kind of game.
 

dred

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,533
Since you mentioned Demon's Souls and MC score, it should be said that DS is currently sitting at 89 on MC. Even though the game was confusing for many players early on I think there was a certain awareness that a quality game existed on the other side of the learning curve.

Anyway, Below was one of my most anticipated games for years but my excitement waned substantially during the long periods of silence and mystery. I'll jump into it one day, it sounds very intriguing if nothing else.
 

Torpedo Vegas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,660
Parts Unknown.
I played it and put about 10 hours into it and now it can go in on the stack of games that I'll say "I need to get back to" but I know damn well I'm never going to play again.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Duh. I didn't compare it to Souls or said it's a Soulslike or anything of the kind. I said, similar to Demon's Souls, it's a diamond in the rough that people should check out.

Did you not misunderstand what he was arguing? It isn't about similarity in gameplay, but about what kind of release we are witnessing. He is talking general reception due to unfamiliarity with a new kind of game.

In every review i've seen, its been directly compared to souls. That's why i say that the comparison to souls doesnt really hold. It may be a good game, but then your thread should read "Below is underrated". And that would be a better title.
 

see5harp

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,435
People should give it a try. I don't think anyone is claiming that it's as good or equivalent to Demon's Souls. Everything gets super bent out of shape when their favorite thing is just mentioned jesus what a bunch of illiterate babies.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,413
In every review i've seen, its been directly compared to souls. That's why i say that the comparison to souls doesnt really hold. It may be a good game, but then your thread should read "Below is underrated". And that would be a better title.

But reviews aren't the OP's post. He clearly argued something else entirely. I don't think that is on him.
 

Bedlam

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,536
I absolutely hate it when I cannot see stuff on my screen because it is too tiny (like menus, text etc in some games).

This is a whole game of that.

No thanks.
 

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,191
my impression of demon's souls is that reviewers didn't get it but the audience that picked it up responded positively

my impression of below is that it isn't just reviewers who say it's not great
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,063
I hadn't heard about this, but a quick look at a gameplay clip on youtube makes me really interested. I love roguelikes, and the graphical style looks awsome.

As far as I could gather it's a timed exclusive for the xbox and PC, right? If so I'll absolutely grab it on the PS4 or Switch when the exclusivity deal expires!
 

oracledragon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,285
I'm mostly enjoying below. But I'm not sure I will keep getting into it...

  • The hunger mechanic needs tuning imo. I dont mind hunger mechanics in games at all, but Below (like many others who try it) depletes too rapidly. The result is you spend an unfortunate amount of time not exploring, but just feeding your character. Your hunger meter should deplete much slower than it does, feels like I need to eat every 5 minutes.
  • Again on the hunger mechanic... this game goes for a depleting health angle. Personally I would prefer escalating debuffs, but that's an aside. The main issue is, again like most games that deplete health to "starve", it is far too rapid. It wouldn't be pleasant, but you can go 3 or maybe 4 weeks without food. Yet your hardy adventurer drops dead in only a few minutes of not eating, and that's after previously eating something every 5 minutes... if you want to kill me for not eating, sure, but it should take a long time. 30 mins or more.
  • The zoom level is way too small. Maybe they thought everyone was on 75 inch sets these days, but on my old 40 inch I have to be about a foot away from the screen to see half of what is going on.

Those are my primary complaints, that I feel actively push me from getting more into the game and I would love to see patched.

Also on the list, but not critical, is it feels like a wasted opportunity to randomize the dungeon every death. Sure respawn the monsters, etc, but you lose a lot of value from your prior knowledge as the layout is new... it could have given value to keeping a manual maps and notes. The other thing is I'm sure there could have been some cool mechanics and puzzle solutions that could have relied on the time that past between one adventurer and the next, or actions that had to be done in a prior life to help the next one to come along (the shortcuts are a bit like this).

The game is good, but after so many delays and so much hype it had an impossible goal to live up to. This is doublet so because Ashen had a similar path, and I feel (personally anwyays) that it really did a much better job of living up to expectations. The games are likely to have a lot of overlap in playerbase, so it's unfortunate that they were released so close together.
 

AlexBasch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,313
I'm not hardcore enough to deal with roguelikes, hunger meters and bullshit like that.

But if others find joy in beating a huge challenge like that, more power to them.

EDIT: Took out the Souls part of my post. I like the game but the fandom plasting or condeming everything being compared to their precious franchise is so fucking tiring.
 

Deleted member 11976

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,585
Maybe wait until it's patched. On XB1 there are inventory UI and floor # bugs. My save also got corrupted (I think) and it appeared to happen to multiple other reviewers as well (from what I've read) so consider yourself warned.

thomasmahler I am interested to hear what you think about the area (25-27F) that I got really hung up on in the OP because I don't really have kind things to say about that part of the game. It has a great early- to mid-game but the late-game is where it all fell apart for me. I mean, even aside from my save file getting corrupted, I was really disappointed by that bit.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,381
I don't agree. Doesn't feel tightly designed and thought out like a Souls game at all. The way things are introduced you in the beginning of the game (aka not at all) does not mirror a Souls game. Feels very haphazard. The mechanics don't feel tight, as in the survival/crafting stuff feels poorly tuned. It's more frustrating than an interesting resource management challenge. And the attempts to be minimalistic (both in terms of UI design and the camera perspective) just hinder playability. Also you just walk way too slowly across way too vast areas. Playing a Souls game for the first time feels like you're teased to explore a weird world. Here it feels like the developers are intentionally holding things back from you both mechanically and exploration wise just to give an impression of being mysterious.
 

wafflebrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,245
I wanted to like it and was enjoying the loop until things like temperature effects started to hamper my progression, I really can't stand timer oriented gameplay, I want to take it at my own pace and not have to worry about constantly diminishing meters for hunger, temp, etc. I enjoy survival games in general but the rate at which your hunger drops plus the temp meter is just too fast. Grinding mushrooms for the warmth stew plus other food sources just to progress ain't my kinda jam.

I remember a similarly contentious game wrt difficulty and gameplay was Rain World, lots of critics and gamers couldn't stand the harshness of the food gathering and hibernation system. Eventually the developer changed it to give an option for less harsh penalties so more people could progress through the game. Curious if Capy will do similarly or stick to a 'git gud' attitude. To be clear there's nothing wrong with that response either, I can respect both positions and sticking to their vision has its own merits.

Soundtrack is brilliant though, been listening to it daily off Spotify since release. Jim Guthrie deserves an award for it.
 

Einherjer

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,924
Germany
Yeah no sorry i really tried to like it since i loved their previous games but i had to refund this, forced survival crap and rogue likes just don't mix very well in my opinion and the game is very frustrating to play in general, it also didn't help that my eyes are not that great these days and everything is really tiny in this game.
 

impact

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,380
Tampa
in Demon's Souls you don't just die for no reason like you do in Below.

The game has atmosphere, but maybe they should've focused on combat and enemy variety instead of hunger mechanics. It's not fun to play in it's current state.
 

apathetic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,745
My interest in this game went to zero once I heard it was a roguelike unfortunately.

This is me. Went from anticipated to hard pass in a flash. Just not my bag and while I have enjoyed other roguelikes/lites I have too much else right now to get into another Dead Cells situation; forcing myself to play a game that parts of it appeal to me when I'm just not enjoying the other aspects at all.
 

Baloota

Member
May 12, 2018
916
Egypt
The game is good but the next Demon's Souls? i don't agree. The survival element kills the exploration apsect of the game, you are told to take your time but at the same time you should hurry and find new resources. Everytime i find a new area or something interesting i try to move as quick as possible to the next section. I can't take my time to fully appreciate the art or the environemnt. It's like someone telling you to go left and right at the same time.
Also, Demon's Souls wasn't a cult hit because it was hard. Difficulty doesn't make a game.
 

XVerdena

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,918
I stopped playing it because of how frustating it is.

Maybe I will give it a try again sometime.