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I just watched Raiders of the Lost Ark for the first time, and I'm pretty sure I hate Indiana Jones

Deleted member 18514

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
385
Tn, USA
I wonder if there is any way to ever recreate the feeling those original films had. Raiders was a great re-interpretation of the serials, but I don't think they can get that feel now. Not just story-wise, but with stunts, practical sets, and the right mix of location filming and stage sets. I guess we'll see with the Dora movie which certainly seems like an attempt to imitate Raiders. Maybe Jumanji 2 will lean into the puzzle/trap aspect of gaming and give us some good set piece scenes. Gotta check out the Tomb Raider film.

Indy as a character though, we'll never see the like again. He defines a "guilty pleasure" viewing experience.
 
ViewtifulJC

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
Fancy Clown said:
let's only watch movies about nice & polite youngsters, where the only things bigger than their respect for one another are their hearts ♥
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The idea that characters need to be "likable", or we need to hold them up to our woke 2019 standards, is poisonous and narrow minded. But this is the same OP they said early 80s movies were "old". God forbidden you watch anything before The Godfather. Or god forbid you watch The Godfather, if your idea of a good movie is "likeable, wholesome characters who are in no way toixic(like me)"
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
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ViewtifulJC said:
The idea that characters need to be "likable", or we need to hold them up to our woke 2019 standards, is poisonous and narrow minded. But this is the same OP they said early 80s movies were "old". God forbidden you watch anything before The Godfather. Or god forbid you watch The Godfather, if your idea of a good movie is "likeable, wholesome characters who are in no way toixic(like me)"
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They are old like you are old, you must face this in your heart

(Also Godfather is different because it shows the fall of the character and doesn't portray him as particularly virtuous after he carries out that assassination, while Indy is supposed to be incredibly charming and charismatic, which he is but with massive red flags)
 
Visanideth

Visanideth

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Oct 31, 2017
4,771
BronsonLee said:
So I was coerced/talked into/ok let's just call it what it really is, bullied into watching this movie with my Discord squad

For a movie from the early 80s I did like it quite a bit, but I am fairly certain that I fuckin' hate Indiana Jones as a person/entity

Constantly self-serving, always out for himself
Straight up bullies Marion for like 90% of the film
I'm pretty sure he's in a relationship with her when she's underage pre-movie
He's lazy and whines a lot
He has every opportunity to escape but constantly keeps trying to get the Ark, something he doesn't even really want

He is a shithouse person and all of his side characters are better people than he is
I wish the movie was about Marion instead, shit I would take Alfred Molina or John Rhys Davies instead

ALSO THIS MOVIE WAS PG AND I SAW LOTS OF FACE MELTY HEADSHOTTY THINGS I am scarred for life

Anybody else not a fan of this devastatingly evil human? Also are the other two movies like this or nah
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That's why Harrison Ford should have been Hank Pym.
 
Fancy Clown

Fancy Clown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,407
BronsonLee said:
They are old like you are old, you must face this in your heart

(Also Godfather is different because it shows the fall of the character and doesn't portray him as particularly virtuous after he carries out that assassination, while Indy is supposed to be incredibly charming and charismatic, which he is but with massive red flags)
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Do you really want all your movies to be morality tales? Indiana Jones is a charismatic asshole — that's who he is and what the "loveable rogue" archetype is built around. The movie doesn't need to finger wag his less savory aspects, and if he were an upstanding fella we probably wouldn't like him nearly as much since it's a rough and tumble pulp adventure movie. You'd probably like The Last Crusade more though because they turn him into a (literal) boy scout.
 

Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
If Indiana Jones is lazy I don't want to know what I am.
 
Pomerlaw

Pomerlaw

Erarboreal
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Feb 25, 2018
8,536
I didn't know she was 15 and he was 27 in the story. Well...

a80e3ca0-26b6-0134-b048-0a814d95abff.gif
 
Thrill_house

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,611
Movie was great as they all were. Indy was kind of a dick at times but a good character that means well for the most part.
 
Pomerlaw

Pomerlaw

Erarboreal
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Feb 25, 2018
8,536
Grug said:
Love Indy but yeah society has moved on quite a bit from a lot of things that were acceptable back then. Would be very different films if made today.

Even the "it belongs in a museum" stuff is problematic as fuck now.
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Is the world better now though? Some things are, some things aren't.

I mean, people are angry at mysoginy and racism in old movies but Trump got elected . In the real world.

At least Indy was fighting Nazis now they get police escorts.
 
Mega1X

Mega1X

The Fallen
Jun 4, 2018
553
In the words of the great Amy Farrah Fowler

"Indiana Jones plays no role in the outcome of the story. If he weren't in the film it would turn out exactly the same.
[...]
If he weren't in the movie the Nazis would have still found the Ark, taken it to the island, opened it up and all died... just like they did."
 
JCHandsom

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
BronsonLee said:
They are old like you are old, you must face this in your heart

(Also Godfather is different because it shows the fall of the character and doesn't portray him as particularly virtuous after he carries out that assassination, while Indy is supposed to be incredibly charming and charismatic, which he is but with massive red flags)
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So long as the audience can recognize those red flags for what they are Indy and other film franchises like his can be enjoyed responsibly for everything they do right (dialogue, action, set pieces, etc.) James Bond has its own issues with misogyny, racism, homophobia, rewarding toxic masculinity, and probably more, but they are still films with a lot of entertainment value going for them and so long as people are able to separate the good from the bad there's nothing wrong with enjoying them or praising them on the merits where they succeed.

I want to reemphasize that; "problematic" media exists in pretty much every aspect of the media landscape because guess what, an unjust society is going to inevitably produce content that is on some level unjust. Either we learn to move through it and maintain critical distance, learning how we can do better while still celebrating the aspects people love (no one celebrates Indy for his relationship with Marion they celebrate him punching Nazi's), or we gradually shut ourselves out from almost all media and throw the baby out with the bath water.

Important caveat: you're totally within your right to not like Indiana Jones, it is 100% within your right to dislike a film for your own reasons. What I'm talking about is more about assessing the quality of problematic films and how we can work in a constructive way towards something better.
 
Beef Supreme

Beef Supreme

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,073
Op, you're a bad person for your take and this thread. At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having to read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
 
JCHandsom

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
Mega1X said:
In the words of the great Amy Farrah Fowler

"Indiana Jones plays no role in the outcome of the story. If he weren't in the film it would turn out exactly the same.
[...]
If he weren't in the movie the Nazis would have still found the Ark, taken it to the island, opened it up and all died... just like they did."
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This is actually part of why I prefer Last Crusade haha it doesn't really have anything to do with Indy becoming a softer, less roguish character (although I don't really like that version of Indy any less, I like Boyscout Indy just fine) and more to do with the fact that Indy has a direct role in the confrontation with the bad guys, with actually getting the Grail and having an emotional stake in its recovery beyond "gotta beat the Nazis and Belloc," considering his whole view of the Ark was just that it was a great historical find that he wanted (I think? I don't remember if there was ever a moment where he's like "okay this is an actual weapon I should close my eyes to not get zapped" because everything he says before being tied up with Marion indicates he doesn't believe any of that.)

Raiders really does end with Indy having to do nothing to win in the end except be there.
 

Deleted member 56580

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I always thought of Indy as a playful guy who just likes to get pushed / insulted back when he's fucking around. That's what he'd give his respect toward. At the same time he's a nazi killing badass and he saves kids, I guess he can be a sort of lovable sarcastic asshole at basically all times ... he will never really hurt you at the end of the day
 
Indy in the Fridge

Indy in the Fridge

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Oct 30, 2017
15,278
The dude saves a whole village of children while almost getting his heart ripped out. And since Temple of Doom predates Raiders then it's safe to assume that maybe his heroics and immense testicles went to his head and that's why he was so bullish and arrogant in Raiders.
 
Ultima_5

Ultima_5

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Oct 25, 2017
7,672
having an unlikable characters shouldn't be a complaint at a movie. what makes you think you need to like every character.
 

Deleted member 1627

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Is this like where people point out that Han Solo is a fucking dingbat idiot and not realise that he was this all along?
 
HellforLeather

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User Banned (1 Day): Personal attacks against another member
Indy was never supposed to be a saint nor are these movies supposed to be accurate depictions of the real world.

I weep for the future of films when this new generation is only going to demand perfect "woke" protags. In general, I feel like people can no longer accept that depiction does not equal promotion and that its ok not to be totally on board with what is going on in a movie.

It baffles me that people now feel like movies/games/comics need to be the moral arbiters of society. My armchair psychology analysis is these people probably had totally shitty parents.
 
OP
OP

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Y'all do realize my main issues are he's borderline pedo (this got retconned apparently) and a misogynist (which got improved in other films)

He doesn't need to be perfect at all lol
 
Man Called Aerodynamics

Man Called Aerodynamics

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Oct 29, 2017
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sphagnum said:
Lawrence Kasdan: I like it if they already had a relationship at one point. Because then you don't have to build it.

George Lucas: I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.

Kasdan: And he was forty-two.

Lucas: He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship.

Spielberg: She had better be older than twenty-two.

Lucas: He's thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve.

Lucas: It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.

Spielberg: And promiscuous. She came onto him.

Lucas: Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore. But if she was fifteen and he was twenty-five and they actually had an affair the last time they met. And she was madly in love with him and he...

Spielberg: She has pictures of him.
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Yeah, it's... something. They were deliberately pushing the envelope even then, making it a weird and predatory relationship. This is not just an example of standards changing over time.

Full disclosure, I adore this movie and the character. But this aspect is troubling and you can't just chalk it up to " being too woke in 2019 to understand changing standards"
 

speak_easy

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May 12, 2018
38
Baltimore, Maryland
its a fucking movie about some du
BronsonLee said:
Y'all do realize my main issues are he's borderline pedo (this got retconned apparently) and a misogynist (which got improved in other films)

He doesn't need to be perfect at all lol
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So my impression has always been that Marion was more than a match for Indy. She stands up to him and the Nazi's. She is confident and this is one of the reasons why she was a crush for so many including myself. If Marion was a victim of Misogyny she ate that up and spit it back out.
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,195
The primary assertion in the topic itself is VERY problematic. That WE forced you to do anything. It puts an incredible burden on US when something is worded that way.

And I'll reply to all that with a "woke" current phrasing: "you do you".

That said.

BronsonLee said:
I have similar issues with Connery Bond and other characters from the 70s-80s

Miss me with this bullshit
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Do you feel forced to watch or like the old Bond movies? I grew up watching those with my dad, and I currently see no value in Bond movies, as that character archetype is not relevant today. When I was 11, I thought Bond was the coolest character ever. However, you might want to check out The Living Daylights, which is a great Bond movie.

You want some recommendations?

Flawed tragic characters:
Watch Le Samourai/Le Circle Rouge by Jean Pierre Melville.
Watch Casablanca.
Watch The Wages of Fear
Watch The Asphalt Jungle
Watch Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid

Idealistic heroes:
The Bridge on the River Kwai
Spartacus
Serpico

Anyway we shouldn't be handholding you through decades of arts and culture man, and then defend everything. That's tiresome. You should do your own research.
 
Gentlemen

Gentlemen

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Oct 25, 2017
9,508
Midramble said:
Hard to hate a guy that's killing nazis for the sake of curating history and... well I guess saving the world.

Wait... now that I actually think about it, if Indy hadn't done a thing the ark would have just killed them all anyways so he wasn't really useful in the end.

It's the thought that counts?
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Indy is a crappy non-hero and the (first) film doesn't try to prop him up as one, which is good.

However, it does reward him with
1. A girl he spends 80% of the movie either ignoring or being abusive to whose first words to him include "I learned to hate you" and with whom he was in an extremely questionable relationship with
2. A "win" over an archaelogical rival who is basically him but luckier to a point, just to end up losing a fight over where shove another priceless cultural artifact: a random American museum with no rightful claim to it or a secretive government vault that just stores it like nuclear waste.

There's a reason his guides abandon, try to murder, or leave him for dead in the opening of the film. They know he's a prick not worth saving.

nitewulf said:
The primary assertion in the topic itself is VERY problematic. That WE forced you to do anything. It puts an incredible burden on US when something is worded that way.
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haha he wasn't even talking about you.
Specifically he's talking about berzeli and Phonciple Bone.
But you didn't even need those details to understand this had nothing to do with you.
 
Richiek

Richiek

Member
Nov 2, 2017
12,063
Marion straight up says she was a child when Indy left her.

Also, let's not forget that Indy is a western imperialist that plunders artifacts from third world countries.
 
Bor Gullet

Bor Gullet

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Oct 27, 2017
12,399
Richiek said:
Marion straight up says she was a child when Indy left her.

Also, let's not forget that Indy is a western imperialist that plunders artifacts from third world countries.
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In Raiders, Indiana Jones recovered the ark from the fucking Nazis.

In Doom, Indiana Jones returns the stone to the village people, where it belonged.

In Crusade, the grail is lost where it was found.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

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Oct 24, 2017
16,939
saenima said:
Oh come on.

I'm disappointed Bronson. That's not being lazy. That's "ain't got time for this, bitch piss off".

It's also an iconic scene and no Ubisoft in sight.
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I liked it a lot especially since it mostly happened because Ford had to poop a lot

(I am exaggerating, dysentery is hell)
 
Ignatz Mouse

Ignatz Mouse

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Oct 27, 2017
10,741
sphagnum said:
Lawrence Kasdan: I like it if they already had a relationship at one point. Because then you don't have to build it.

George Lucas: I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.

Kasdan: And he was forty-two.

Lucas: He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship.

Spielberg: She had better be older than twenty-two.

Lucas: He's thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve.

Lucas: It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.

Spielberg: And promiscuous. She came onto him.

Lucas: Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore. But if she was fifteen and he was twenty-five and they actually had an affair the last time they met. And she was madly in love with him and he...

Spielberg: She has pictures of him.
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"Yikes" is approved for this one.
 
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

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Oct 25, 2017
53,148
You know there's an easy way to remake Indiana Jones without celebrating the problematic stuff about Indy: make Marion the protagonist and tell the story from her perspective.
 

Deleted member 31923

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They could have done away with the statutory rape stuff in Raiders, but overall, Indy is a loveable asshole like Han Solo. Ford is made to play these characters and has the charisma to make them likeable despite being selfish and dickish at times.
 
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